Dancer Archive
Thread: Our role has changed and now I feel useless
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Ikewe
Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:55 pm
#40
I have to wonder if the combat patrons would be in such a hurry if there weren't such a time factor as there was with mind buffs. Part of the problem with the old system was that the mind buff was fixed at 2 hours while a good doctor could craft buffs hitting close to the 4 hour mark. The combat player also had to pay pretty dearly for those doctor buffs (unless they happened to be free from a guildie) so from their perspective time waiting was wasted money. But now that entire system has changed. So do we really need to completely exclude them from our services to avoid the "I'm in a hurry and can't wait for you" crowd? (though right now it's sort of a moot point given the ever increasing number of afk service bots)
But if whatever service we had to offer hada 3 hour durationand lasted through a log out (just like the inspiration buff does) would we really find ourselves back in the same old rut? Lasting through the log out I think is key since so often we heard the "I can't do anything until I get buffed and I have limited time to play".
Keep in mind that under the old system we were providing the "make or break" buff for anyone engaged in PvP. Obviously that's no longer going to be the case. I don't even know what a make or break advantage would be any more but I'd think there are plenty of enhancements we could provide to all potential patrons and I think limiting it because of our fears from the old system is no way to make progress.
Drygo
Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:09 pm
#41
Esharra wrote:
Of particular interest to me is examining why we are feeling "useless"...Did we supplant the basic gaming cycle of challenge-acheivement-reward...?...
Just to be clear, I did heavy editing and what I'm going to say doesn't necessarily coincide with what Esharra was saying in her post.
I didn't really try to supplant the basic gaming cycle with socialization. I really didn't become a dancer to be social, which I know peeps have heard me say over and over. I mean, there must be other people out there like me...who chose dancer not to be social but to perform and get some sort of reward for doing so. Dancer was merely a unique kind of playstyle that really allowed me to show some creativity and do things that people thought were cool. And, that was my attraction to it. But, despite that attraction, I wish that the basic gaming cycle was not supplanted with entertainers.
I want challenge-achievement-reward just like every other profession. And, if anything, that is related to any sense of "uselessness" I might have. Vorpaks eloquently decribed my feelings on the whole matter. Yes, I love the appreciation and the amazement when I do something "cool." But, I also want to get a tangible benefit from it. Not one that relies on the kindness of strangers. Not one that doesn't involve other people (ie missions and/or salaries). I want my tangible benefit to come from other players. I want to take part in the economy. And, my reason for wanting to be wanted doesn't really have anything to do with dancing or healing or inspiring, per se. I wanted to be needed as a pistoleer, carbineer, and TKM as well. I want to make a valuable contribution no matter what my profession. And, no this contribution does not have to be combat related. But, also, like Vorpaks, I would love it to be. I'm one of the few on here who would love to have a "bard" role. But, whatever it is or ends up being, I just want to be valuable to some people, and get a tangible benefit from being someone who can provide that value. It's not unique to dancing. In this respect, I feel the same about dancing than any other profession. And, the fact that I have to use so frickin many skillpoints and not be able to take part in the interdependency as a dancer...well, it bugs.
PS...As always, whatever value we can contribute must not be afk'able, or I don't want it.
Message Edited by Drygo on 07-29-2005 09:10 PM
PoetDancer
Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:01 pm
#42
Am I useless? No. I am Sirii Ajaan.
Alright, that was a bad joke.
But I can tell you what I am feeling, and that is powerlessness.
They got rid of BF. Why they had to get rid of BF, and not do more with it, who is to say?
This whole thing is because the development staff wanted to get rid of BF. That is the only reason, as far as I could tell. And moreover, they have not even explained why BF was such a "gamebreaker" to anyone.
They have still not explained sufficiently to anyone why BF had to be removed. If anything, players were wondering when they were going to increase BF, post CU.
There was no real indication to anyone that BF was something that was bad, or problematic in any way. If anything, people thought BF was something good, and very much needed to prevent non-stop camping in caves and such.
And the most amusing thing about the whole BF situation, is that the majority of players who disliked it, and the loudest voices who championed its demise, came from the exact opposite group we would expect.
You would expect the combat players to be glad that BF was gone. The funny thing is, they miss BF even more than we do it seems. What I do see is dancers, musicians, and entertainers glad that BF is gone.
So the question I have to us is, why is it that I have never heard that BF is a gamebreaker for us until very recently? Where were all these voices amongst us that thought BF was a real downer? I have not heard them. Nor have I seen anyone really think of BF as being any serious problem that impaired their gameplay.
And yet, these developers made it their personal quest to get rid of BF. And when they couldn't find a reason to eliminate it, they invented a reason. But it still doesn't make sense. And I don't think it ever will. BF had the capacity to do so much for not just us, but for the game in general. It is truly the only real rotational mechanic we ever had in SWG. And a persistant world that is not governed by a rotational mechanic can quickly become a chore to play, and a headache to play.
But make no mistake, dancers. BF was not taken out to make room for something else for us. BF wasn't even taken out because anyone wanted it to go. And the only reason, I believe, that we are getting these "new buffs" is because the developers, for some reason I will never understand, wanted to get rid of BF, and found there was not much else tying us to the game system.
And that is why ultimately, I do not feel helpless as much as I feel powerless. Because if they could get rid of something like BF, which was more or less universally accepted by every player as something that made sense, then they could get rid of anything that made sense.
Panthu
Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:23 am
#43
Reachwind wrote:
The audience that appreciates us most is the kind that enhancements are not designed for or used by. The casual player, the role player, the socializer... This type of player is not looking to be optimised for game play but would rather just play. Giving us a role such as healer makes us a prime need for this type of player and those who appreciate the enhancer role as well. A wider audience that has a the core group we want to be associating with definately involved.
The problem is that healing draws such a wide net, the power gamers end up setting the bench mark no matter what. I totally admit that enhancements are a power gamers' mechanic where as pure healing is universal and includes even the most casual combat player.
It doesn't seem to matter though. If you can't target just the casual/RPing/socializing set, you are still overwhelmed and over run by the power gamers as much as you are with power gamer enhancements.
The only solution we seem to be left with whether it's done as a "healer" or as a "buffer" is to cut out that section and only provide for the target audience. In SWG, we are lucky enough to have a second system that is as full an option in gameplay as combat is in most games - crafting.
The crafting section of this game is as huge as combat and it tends to attract players who are either casual gamers, role players, or socializers - basically not power gamers. They have their own version of power gaming with their skill suits, helper droids, resource hoarding, and whatever else they have done, but it's still being done primarily by the casual/RP/Social types.
I think the new Inspiration buffs are going to try to give us a way to support these players and not be over run by the other kind who would need Ent to be bardlike to "get it." It could have been done by wounding and damaging crafters and letting us just be the non-combat docs, but that doesn't seem to be something that anyone wants to pursue right now.
Message Edited by Panthu on 07-29-2005 03:24 PM
Reachwind
Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:58 am
#44
Panthu wrote:
The crafting section of this game is as huge as combat and it tends to attract players who are either casual gamers, role players, or socializers - basically not power gamers.
I'm sorry, but do you even play SWG? You are going to honestly sit here and tell me you think that there are as many crafters as combatants? That these people will need inspiration and other crafting buffs so badly that they'll leave their crafting cities and resource homes to come get them?
Combat characters were our perfect audience because they are moblie, they are the most plentiful and when you have a need for them to take a break ie healing they are a captive audience that will reward you for making their down time pleasurable and hopefully short. The kind of crafter that leaves their city and vendors to come to town LOVED having the combat players in a place like the cantina where they could expect to find them and maybe make some credits off of them. Taking away the healing role did as much damage to that kind of player as it did to us.
Chessack
Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:08 am
#45
With the advent of the CU, most of what made sense about the old game has been gotten rid of or rendered irrelelvent. The new dev team does not agree with the underlying game design theory that went into building the old game, so bit by bit they are erasing it.
That's a shame, at least to those of us who thought the original design, if imperfect, was well done.
C
That's a shame, at least to those of us who thought the original design, if imperfect, was well done.
C
Caerwynn
Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:32 am
#46
I know it is pointless harping on about 'pre Cu' but this does demonstrate why I feel I am floundering on my main char.
Caer was a TKM for a long long time, she took up Dancing after finding herself alone with a broken heart. She had always been needed as a tank withinher oldguild and, when she started dancing, by fellow Ents and patrons who heard of her ability to tank an SBD or NS whilst they got on with defeating another one. She took great pride in this ability. She was also much in demand for her mind buffing abilities, often travelling to hidden locations for Jedi. Sometimes during a hunting trip, she would be asked to buff in a camp. Caer felt needed and wanted by her guild, her friends and provided a tanking and buffing service for countless others.
Then the CU hit. Instead of having skills that were useful, she suddenly had a HAM that was a liability, tanking was next to useless and no real service to provide to anyone. She tried pikes, that was more like the old TKM with defensive and offensive capabilities, but she died too fast with 1k HAM less than those with a full combat template. It was a very depressing time. She took up smuggling as that gave her new twist, but being combatant to sell FP at CL55, is interesting to say the least. Although having to be extra careful to avoid stormtroopers does add an authentic feel to Smuggler. Improved concussion shot at least gives her some combat use, for crowd control, but that's about it. There are far fewer patrons standing in the cantina getting a buff and of course no one needs BF healing, I think that was a bad idea removing that now and not giving Ents something to replace BF healing that kept the patrons coming to the cantina.
The whole buffing thing now is a farce. Next time I do something in a group with my CL80, I am going to see how many members have an inspiration buff, often I don't get one as I don't find they make much difference. My crafting alt gets one as she is grinding and that extra 10% may or may not make the grind a little quicker.
I can't remember which Dancing Corr asked if we saw ourselves as a social profession beforeour nerf, but I had a bad, bad feeling about it at the time.
Message Edited by Caerwynn on 07-30-2005 09:34 AM
cavbuilder
Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:14 am
#47
Ive always liked going to the cantinas and watching/listening to the ents, guess thatsa why i when i got tired of rifle/ranger i
went mdance/mmusic. Now im currently deployed to Iraq with the army and I enjoy the time when I can log in and talk with everyone, sort of gives me a break from the stress here. I do miss the days of giving mind buffs and I hope they plan to throw us a bone to get more people in the cantinas. But even if they dont Ill still be there, its the only outside social interation i have lol
Panthu
Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:48 am
#48
Caerwynn wrote:
I can't remember which Dancing Corr asked if we saw ourselves as a social profession beforeour nerf, but I had a bad, bad feeling about it at the time.
It was Deila and she was gathering information to support asking for PvE content for Dancers. We have talked about these things forever and Deila was a great collector of those requests even before she became corr. When she was active, she tried very hard to get those things for us.
She felt like if we had more to do as Dancers that fit in with our showbiz role, it would fill the void that would be left when healing was taken away officially. There was an idea going around that "social" meant no game mechanics supported play. Basically, a pure RP profession and she was hoping to show that we actually meant a lot more than that when we talked about being "social players."
Social players have game needs too and Deila was hoping that we would help explain those needs so she could carry them back for us. At the time I said I couldn't directly answer her questions with out being too pointed and that was because I knew the history behind the questions. I had done that battle over Healer for us, she was shooting for something else.
Anyway, the thread is interesting if you want to see how people answered those questions before they knew what was going on. Clicky
That was not a Corr warning that we were not seen as Healers though. That came from me many months before that and Deila knew that ship had already sailed and never attempted to argue the point to my memory.
I really wish people would remember these things when they are fighting what Eshie says we should be shooting for... corrs can't make Devs think of us a certain way, but they do usually have enough information to know what is possible to ask for and what isn't.
Caerwynn
Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:06 am
#49
Panthu you are terribly defensive. I was not having a go at the Corr, rather the feeling I had that the devs were pushing for this aspect.
I posted in that thread, should have highlighted was my response with a different text colour.
I pay quite a lot to play this game, three account's worth in fact. Strangely, I do care a lot about what is enjoyable for me and other players and what isn't. I don't expect to get near flamed by a glowie each time I post.
Panthu
Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:17 am
#50
Huh? I'm not being defensive about anything. You mentioned something that I know the history of and was just trying to share.
I have no idea what you think I said there that flamed you.
There are NDAs for corrs and glowies that keep you from coming in and just doing a tell all style post. Things are happening now that have a lot of people stressed because they don't have enough information. I have a little extra information because I've seen the long line here and I just want others to have the benefit of that understanding too.
Everything Deila talked about is extremely relevant right now. I wish she was here for herself because I really think she would have some interesting views on things and some helpful insights.
I think I give up though. If people aren't interested in me trying to get this history out there so they can be better equipped to understand what's going on now and use this information to make requests that have a better chance of success, then oh well.
I'll just keep my mouth shut I guess next time I see something I think people will be interested in. It's not like it's going to hurt me if you don't want to know backstory. *shrug*
Caerwynn
Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:35 am
#51
Then I apologise if I read that in a different tone to the one you intended. It read to me as if it was a criticism.
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