Dancer Archive
Thread: Poll Should the Musicians Get Their Song?
Drygo
Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:26 pm
#40
Cudayn wrote:
Ooooooo.......singled outwith a one star. How does what I said in any way qualify for a one star? Isn't being anon about the voting system great? You don't even have to speak your mind, you can just be a lurker who stars posts. I should be so brave myself
Uh huh. I hate that too. It's like this weekend when I was um..."debating" with people regarding the holovids. I am fully aware that my viewpoints on those are unpopular. But, really, I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. But, it's nothing but cowardice to simply one star a post without explanation, especially when I haven't insulted with anyone and my arguments are well thought out. You don't *ever* have to agree with a well thought out argument. But, don't one star someone just because you don't like the content of their post. One star them if their arguments are invalid, and then tell them why.
Anyway, yes, I still believe #2, let them have their song. I'm selfish because I want to *hear* the song being played and dance to it! 
QuixoticJedi1
Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:30 pm
#41
Tiaga wrote:
That's it? People want the dance held just because of that?
That isn't the dance that is broken. The dance itself works fine, it is the underlying systems that are broken. From what I understand of it, it is not a simple change by any stretch. I wouldn't even call it a bug, but rather a flaw in the design of the system. And holding the dance won't make the change any easier; as the fix wouldn't be to make any changes to the dance. The same fix would take care of Formal, Lyrical, the new dance, all the other dances (Most of them have the same problem to some extent) and any future dances without having to make a change to any of the dances. So unless you're holding out hoping to get something else instead, I don't see any reason to hold it back.
Holding the dance may not make the fix any easier, but I think it would prevent making a lot of Dancers angrier. I don't think anyone here was advocating holding the dance back, but due to the complete lack of updates from the Devs, we speculated that they were "fixing" things before promoting. The idea then came up that if they were fixing the dance, that it should not hold up the music portion of the quest.
Yes, we were all hoping that the Devs weren't going to release broken content to us. And yes, for whatever reason, it IS broken content. Regardless of whether the fix corrects one dance or all. A new broken dance is still a broken dance, and for my part I'd rather not have another dance. Not that the Devs are listening to us...
Tiaga
Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:58 pm
#42
My gut feeling is we won't see the issue fixed for a long time. I don't say that because I think we are being ignored or anything. Rather, it will likely involve significant changes that will have potential impact to the game outside of just dancers. I've been trying to look at it from a developers perspective, and I don't have an answer for what is the right way to do it. There are a few things I've thought of, but they all have their up sides and their down sides. Even if I were designing something from the ground up, I'm not sure I could give a right way. Of course, IANAGD. (I am not a game developer.) There may be something I'm not seeing.
Unless Panthu has heard something I have not, there are no changes to the dance being worked on.
People will be upset no matter what they do. It's the rule of MMORPGs. If they release it sooner, people will complain that it's broken. If they fix it and release it later, people will complain they took too long. Either way people who aren't dancers will complain that they are working on dances instead of fixing their professions.
Right now the only reason I could see them holding it back is if dancers asked them to. Threads like this make it seem like dancers are asking them to. IMO, we should be asking them to give it to us, and at the same time asking them to fix the underlying issue. But connecting the two and making it looks like we don't want the dance until the underlying issue is fixed just sets us up for needless delay.
Unless Panthu has heard something I have not, there are no changes to the dance being worked on.
People will be upset no matter what they do. It's the rule of MMORPGs. If they release it sooner, people will complain that it's broken. If they fix it and release it later, people will complain they took too long. Either way people who aren't dancers will complain that they are working on dances instead of fixing their professions.
Right now the only reason I could see them holding it back is if dancers asked them to. Threads like this make it seem like dancers are asking them to. IMO, we should be asking them to give it to us, and at the same time asking them to fix the underlying issue. But connecting the two and making it looks like we don't want the dance until the underlying issue is fixed just sets us up for needless delay.
kirah_ashlin
Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:25 pm
#43
Tiaga, I've seen the dance and for me personally it is not just the fact that it's broken (that's a biggie though by itself) it's the fact that the devs apparently didn't bother to check the dance before sending it to TC. If they had, they would have realized it was broken and (theoretically) taken steps to fix/recover/realign/fillintheblank it before even putting it on TC. It would have taken all of five minutes worth of their time to look at it first. Or, if the problem with the broken dances is not fixable as of yet (still) then they should have based the quest dance on one of the more stationary dances that aren't broken (Popular2, Exotic) instead of using the same staggering, flowing base line of Formal and Lyrical.
It isn't just the base dance that is broken, a few of the flos don't even look like they belong with the rest of the dance. You go from hokey hillbillystomping to intricate countrylinedance steps to formal twirls. And the dance takes you from one side of the cantina to the other -and up and back, as well. It isn't even a dance you could perform on a player cantina stage! If you performed it in a NPC cantina you'd be dancing through every other entertainer, table, chairand patron in the place.
I don't like the looks of the dance,so even if they fixed it I won't do the quest to get it on live. If it offered something extra, like added mind buffing enhancements then I might consider it, but as it stands, fixed or broken, I have no desire to perform it.
That's just my two credits about the subject. I know a few people do like it, so it is a matter of personal taste.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-06-2004 06:29 PM
Aleyo
Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:39 pm
#44
I've expressed somewhat more quietly Tiaga's assessment that I wouldn't imagine they'd fix the underlying problem with the dances before releasing it. I'd love it if that were the reason they were holding back, but I doubt it.
But I wanted to add, as another maybe-they're-not-all-evil-and-incompetent statement, that it's also likely that this dance was motion-captured long before now, and before they knew there would be the underlying problem with the dances. As such, they would not have known to make the dance more stationary to avoid the bug, not to mention player cantina stages. NewJedi has alluded to the idea that there have been several songs in various stages of production for some time now. Could be the same for the dance.
*shrug*
Not that it makes anyone feel better about the fact that they're broken.
But I wanted to add, as another maybe-they're-not-all-evil-and-incompetent statement, that it's also likely that this dance was motion-captured long before now, and before they knew there would be the underlying problem with the dances. As such, they would not have known to make the dance more stationary to avoid the bug, not to mention player cantina stages. NewJedi has alluded to the idea that there have been several songs in various stages of production for some time now. Could be the same for the dance.
*shrug*
Not that it makes anyone feel better about the fact that they're broken.
Tiaga
Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:30 pm
#45
To give you an idea of how long it takes from motion capture to production.. They did the motion capture for this in, if memory serves me, August, last year. It's not a simple process.
Kirah, you have no reason to know if they did or didn't look at it before it hit TC. In fact, I'm sure they did. The point I was making is there may not necessarily be any steps they can take in the short term to fix it. Blaming them for giving us a dance hardly seems fair. Besides, even if they just stole the base dance from a different dance like popular (Which people would complain about for not having unique base dances), popular has the same bug as lyrical and formal, just to a smaller degree) I don't see that as a reason to hold it back. It isn't known (At least by me) if there are any other dances in production. Even if there are, they may also move around a lot, meaning if you want a stationary dance you're stuck waiting a year after the next time they can hit the motion capture studios. (I'm not saying it's that long until we see another new dance. As I said, I don't know if there are any others in the works currently.)
Kirah, you have no reason to know if they did or didn't look at it before it hit TC. In fact, I'm sure they did. The point I was making is there may not necessarily be any steps they can take in the short term to fix it. Blaming them for giving us a dance hardly seems fair. Besides, even if they just stole the base dance from a different dance like popular (Which people would complain about for not having unique base dances), popular has the same bug as lyrical and formal, just to a smaller degree) I don't see that as a reason to hold it back. It isn't known (At least by me) if there are any other dances in production. Even if there are, they may also move around a lot, meaning if you want a stationary dance you're stuck waiting a year after the next time they can hit the motion capture studios. (I'm not saying it's that long until we see another new dance. As I said, I don't know if there are any others in the works currently.)
Ravanne_Esi
Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:04 pm
#46
Tiaga wrote:
Blaming them for giving us a dance hardly seems fair.
Blaming them for knowingly giving us broken content is absolutely fair. This issue has been with us from release so they have no excuse for not knowing about it and no excusefor not doing something about it. We are paying customers just like everyone else in the game and our issues should be addressed just like everyone elses. If they had no intention to give us quality content they should never have promised us anything.
kirah_ashlin
Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:17 pm
#47
This is an issue that we have to respectfully disagree on, Tiaga. You know oceans more about coding than I ever will. I know a great deal about customer service. Putting out a defective product (which this dance is) unknowingly is one thing - offering it to your customers knowing it is defective is unacceptable.
Drygo
Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:22 pm
#48
I don't know if anyone has noticed...but I don't think that lyrical and formal are the only broken dances. In fact, I think all of them are. I don't know what causes it. But, for example, Fuschia and I were hanging out the other night, and I was dancing...I think footloose2 or rhythmic2? I don't recall exactly. But, she said something to the effect that that it appeared the dance was broken just like formal and lyrical.
I think that the only reason that we notice it's broken is because formal and lyrical require us to move around. Again, I'm not exactly sure why. But, I have noticed on several occasions that other dances that require some degree of movement on the base dance have momentarily "glitches" where they have that "ice skating warping" look to it. One of the ones I notice a lot is if you're just doing popular (not popular2). And, I have noticed it at one time or another with basically every dance where the base dance requires some degree of movement. I have never noticed it on exotics or poplocks for example, because you stay in the same spot. So, I think there is some overall "coding" problem, or whatever it is, with *all* of the dances, and it has to do with movement on the base dance. It's just the most noticeable with lyrical and formal.
I'm pretty sure that the developers are well aware of when the dance is "broken" and under what circumstances. I don't know if they know how to fix it or have time to fix it. But, I'm sure they're aware of it. As such, it seems logical to me that with this knowledge, if they can't or won't fix this particular problem, that any new dances in the future should have a base dance where you don't move. Therefore, it won't appear broken...even though it probably is, just like all the rest. And, people watching you will never notice. Has anyone else noticed this? Does that make any sense?
Message Edited by Drygo on 10-06-2004 06:25 PM
Tiaga
Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:47 am
#49
I must confess I haven't seen the dance in action yet..
Is it being "broken" the same as formal and lyrical, or is it something else?
Is it being "broken" the same as formal and lyrical, or is it something else?
picklesSW
Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:51 am
#50
Tiaga wrote:
I must confess I haven't seen the dance in action yet..
Is it being "broken" the same as formal and lyrical, or is it something else?
Exactly. Same as lyrical and formal.
Tiaga
Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:58 am
#51
That's it? People want the dance held just because of that?
That isn't the dance that is broken. The dance itself works fine, it is the underlying systems that are broken. From what I understand of it, it is not a simple change by any stretch. I wouldn't even call it a bug, but rather a flaw in the design of the system. And holding the dance won't make the change any easier; as the fix wouldn't be to make any changes to the dance. The same fix would take care of Formal, Lyrical, the new dance, all the other dances (Most of them have the same problem to some extent) and any future dances without having to make a change to any of the dances. So unless you're holding out hoping to get something else instead, I don't see any reason to hold it back.
That isn't the dance that is broken. The dance itself works fine, it is the underlying systems that are broken. From what I understand of it, it is not a simple change by any stretch. I wouldn't even call it a bug, but rather a flaw in the design of the system. And holding the dance won't make the change any easier; as the fix wouldn't be to make any changes to the dance. The same fix would take care of Formal, Lyrical, the new dance, all the other dances (Most of them have the same problem to some extent) and any future dances without having to make a change to any of the dances. So unless you're holding out hoping to get something else instead, I don't see any reason to hold it back.
LyteFoot
Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:32 am
#52
From watching a friends dance I can see whats wrong. It is the same issue that occassionally makes a person appear to burst run to catch up to someone. I think it also combines with whatever location coding they have that causes people to "slide" across a floor. It seems that the positional system of the server doesn't track close enough and will occassionaly move you to its last known position. Also the clients are designed to "walk/run" you to the most current position if your positional data is out of synch with a server positional message.
So you are doing a dance and at the same time your client and the viewers client are being updated with your characters location. Since they will always be out of synch the viewers client is constantly trying to walk you to the correct location at the same time it is trying to display the base dance. Flourishes make it worse because the clients seem to ignore location data for the duration of the flourish putting you even further out of synch with the server.One way to fix it would be to ignore location update information for the duration of a dance. This could get pretty nasty since some dancers drift a lot and over time would get very far out of synch. I might see you dancing in the corner when in fact you have drifted behind me on your client. The other fix might be to only accept updates at key points during a dance and simply redraw the character at the new location making it appear that they warped. That isn't very pretty either because the dancer would be doing all the steps correctly but teleporting all over the room.
Personally I would prefer they ignore positional information during a dance but the two big issues are that extremely long periods of dancing could put you far out of position with the rest of the server and I'm sure this out of position situation could open up some kind of exploit.