Dancer Archive

Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky

JohnMarble
Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:24 am
#40






Isendel wrote:


Please read all before responding. Thanks


I can see your point and why you dont like buff bots, but also try to see it from the point of people who use them. These people want buffs and do not want to have to spend hours getting them. We all have finite time, every ones time is valuebel. These changes that many of you are asking for hurt other players and reduce the time they have to play. I can remeber a good many times when I needed healing and could not find an entertainer in the days before buffbots. That means im more or or less not able to play until one logs in. This is not a good situation. Now i know this is a hot button issue, and will try to keep it civil if you all can also...but


Buff bots are needed. What we should be asking for is perks to being ATK. I saw the salary idea in another post, great idea. , I saw an idea to give dancer/musicians more bonuses when ATK.. Another great suggestion. Make entertainer buffing work faster for ATK buffers..bring back the 30 second buff, but just for non afk dancers..How about more content, shows, contests ect.. Reasons to play a dancer and have fun. Leave the buff bots out of this. They did not cause the problems we have, they mearly filled a gap we left. Had we been avalable and there as much as we were needed, the community need for buff bots would not have come to be. The very fact that they do exist and are so heavily useds is clear evedence that they are needed. What really causes these problems is the mind pool in general. It being unhealable makes every one, by defult need mind buffs to survive if they are pvping or pveing competaively. Im not trying to flame this class and neither was Arendel3, but no one here is looking out for the other players, our customers from what I have been reading. Instead of blameing them for the buff bot problem, we need to blame our selves.. What are we doing wrong that makes us less attractive then an automated buffing character? What ever that is we need to fix it.


On an off branch from earlier..seriously. How much money is enough.. Lets get a number out here to play with? Realisticly as just dancer/musician how much cash do we need? We dont have to buy resourses, our clothes and instruments are relatively inexpensive, even the modded clothing is a one time investment, or should be.. Single doctor buffs to quickness are usualy in my experience low cost, and even entertainer friendly foods i have found to be reasonably priced. Swoop bikes are needed.. we got to travel. Am i leaving out much? A house and maintenece? This is not ment as a flame, we need a base line.. How much are our services worth? Why I ask this is much of the posts im reading center around getting paid. Thats ok, but we need to get a base line on what "getting paid" is.


Ok. To sum up.. No more flameing. Lets see if we can draw a consensus fair to every one with out restricting others game play or creating another time sink, and lets come up with a base line on the amount we feel we should be generating.






"We all have finite time."


This is not true. Buffbots have infinite time. There's the problem. The cost for an entertainer is time. An armorsmith must pay for resources, true. The armorsmith will craft his schematics, and set up factory runs, and put items up for sale, then make money while logged off. An armorsmith could spend a few days working long hours, then take a week off and go to Disneyland, meanwhile making a profit. The entertainer must be there, must always be there to make credits. I take offense to, "what do you need credits for?" Why does the armormith make such an ungodly profit? Besides the cost of resources, why should they have so many credits? It's none of our business.


What is the worth of a mind buff? Worth is not based on cost to manufacture something. Worth is based on people's need. Apparently these mind buffs should be worth an awful lot of credits, since people say they are required. Why then,is the market pricenothing?Because they cost nothing?But they do cost something, for me, anyway. My time. My time is worth an awful lot to me. I make more money from novice scout than from mastering an elite profession. That's wrong.


Blaming entertainers for buffbots is ridiculous. I never use buffbots, and before they arrived, I could always find somebody to buff me.Today, it'sincredibley difficult.I've lost count of the number of entertainers I've known who either dropped the profession or quit the game. Usually they would drop the profession first, try something else, be bored, and quit. The hologrind trivialized people who played entertainers. This drove entertainers away.It was impossible to findbuffers in the sea of AFK, so I can understand people making buffbots.But I believe buffbots wouldbe here even if there were plenty of atk entertainers. Because time is infinite for a buffbot, and even if one guy tips out of fifty, it's worth it.


Iknow at the keyboard bonuses wouldn't change anything. I can already buff faster than any buffbot. Doesn't matter a bit. People use them because they don't have to pay, or feel guilty for not paying. It's a machine. Blame me all you want for not being able to attract "customers" from somebody giving my service away, without my cost. I'm not a socializer, I'm a %96 explorer, I'm not going to charm anybody away from anything. It's just plain market supply and demand, as I see it: They charge nothing, I charge something, their supply is unlimited and mine is in short supply.


You argue that without buffbots, people will have to spend hours looking for them. That's because you can't find atk entertainers now. You say buffbots filled a vacuum, I say buffbots created a vacuum. We can argue this back and forth, and get nowhere, so let's not look at it from the point of view of the individual player, and step back and look at it from the point of view of the game design as a whole, how it is all supposed to fit together.


A few posts above Isendel's, Doriana posted about Bartle.Mind buffs could have come from any number of places, in terms of game mechanics. They could be one-use droids you'd buy from engineers, doesn't matter. In terms of overall game design, buffs are insignificant. Entertainers were not createdas a reason to have somebodybuff minds. The class came first, then they were given the buffing ability. The idea behind bartle is that a MUD/mmorpg is healthiest when all four player types are equally represented (and no, afk is not a player type). A misconception about socializers is that they socialize with everyone else. Actually, they socialize with other socializers. This is why the hologrind hurt them so badly. They found it impossible to socialize, and the wrong people were in their profession. This is why you'll hear some entertainers wishing mind buffs weren't even part of the profession at all, more trouble than they're worth.


It comes down to this: the buffbot belonging to some achiever drives off the socializer. In the end, as the theory goes, this will make things worse off for the achiever.It's short term versus long term.A game filled only with only one player type is unhealthy. MUDs like this would eventually fail. The strong MUDs had a place for all four player types. It's all about balance, and the health of the game as a whole.


Mind buffs could come from anywhere, it doesn't matter. As long as there is a use for the socializer in the grand scheme. Currently, there is not.


GarVa
Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:46 am
#41


Post were edited that had to do with the previously edited or removed post in the thread, so any replies that "quoted" or otherwise directly replied to those are now gone (its an automated function) so if you had a point in one of thread it may need reposted. There is no censorship here, people need to learn the difference between censorship and moderation, they are very similar but totally different, and if you cannot moderate yourselves we will do it for you, thanks.





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ThePurpleFish

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:54 am Post subject:


I have posted once in this threed - but reading more made me think of a question..


I propose this to both entertainers and the people that want the buffs


Dancers/Musicians - Do you make sure that you tell every person that gets a buff from you that they are welcome to add you to their friends list so that they will know if you are online - thus enabliling them to send you a tell to find out if you are buffing


and you Combat types having trouble finding a buff - Do you ask the entertainer if you may add them to your friends list (for the above stated reason)


Now I realize that the atmosphere varies from server to server - I dont find Lowca that bad .. Cantinas are a little heavy on the afk but buff bots are not that common..one or 2 here and there but for the most part they dont over take the cantinas


Now my point- I have people hop 3 planets to get a buff from me. They have me on their friends list, sent me a tell and are on their way. There are some nights I am overwhelmed by people coming to me for buffs. Tuesday, I buffed for 3 straight hours. Non-stop.



If ever person that likes to buff did this and every person that needs them did the same I think people would find that they are not that uncommon really. Any given night in theed there are at least 3 master dancers buffing ATK - I am usually the only musician buffing but...the dance buff is there.


Just my 2 cents /shrug
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Phantom_M-O-L

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:17 am Post subject:

First I like to say....


I am a buff bot . I will be a buff bot for as long as I can be a buff bot. enought said. You People are to funny. Before I became a buff bot. My Bounty hunter would walk into the cantina looking for a mind buff. THERE WERE NONE!!!!! I would walk in on a SAT night PRIM time no one wanted to take time away from chatting to help. So PFFT.. and a LOL... I get g-mails all he time saying "thank you so much for helping us" or the "Thanks for running you bot" Or the tells to my other account when the bot is not up "Hey man bring on the bot" I get this all the time.. I make money. Yep thats righ boy/gals I make it. what to hear somethign funny too I give it back to people that need it... I keep some do not get me wrong. I put it into my guild so we can have nice things. I give to new players that need a helpping hand.



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Phantom_M-O-L

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:35 am Post subject:


First I like to say....


I am a buff bot . I will be a buff bot for as long as I can be a buff bot. enought said. You People are to funny. Before I became a buff bot. My Bounty hunter would walk into the cantina looking for a mind buff. THERE WERE NONE!!!!! I would walk in on a SAT night PRIM time no one wanted to take time away from chatting to help. So PFFT.. and a LOL... I get g-mails all he time saying "thank you so much for helping us" or the "Thanks for running you bot" Or the tells to my other account when the bot is not up "Hey man bring on the bot" I get this all the time.. I make money. Yep thats righ boy/gals I make it. what to hear somethign funny too I give it back to people that need it... I keep some, do not get me wrong. I put it into my guild so we can have nice things. I give to new players that need a helpping hand.


You people that cry about us botts make me laugh you really do. You all try to hijack our bots and stand right up in front of us. I have even cought some of you sitting next to the bot saying were family in RL and to tip me. "that was the best one BTW". I am a bot I do not hyjack your dancing toon I do not stand infront of your dancer telling people to tip me instead of you. Heck I stand in the back room away from all of you and do MY OWN thing. I tell people that if you have BF see the other dancers. I do not make people tip eather "Tip what you think is fair". I read in the first part of this post that some dancer was crying that th bots can not make people pay for the buffs. Pfft it is my bot my skils and I will do what I want if I want FREE buff so be it. How is that...... ENOUGH SAID!!!


I pay 14.95 a month just like all of you out there!!!!!


I will play the way I want to play.. How dare you all tell me how to play.. Who are you people this is a game for god sakes get a grip!!!!

And if and when SOE Nurfs this we will see all you people saying buff bots kill the game. You all will be to high and mighty to give the people buff when they need it. Or are you all going to do like i read above and say "I am to bussy right now" LOL you all crack me up. SOE put in the marco's we just got smart and figured out how to use them.


Here is the other funny thing. I get you ANTI buff bot people asking how do I make a marco can you please help me LOL.. now that funny.


the other funny thing I see is 90% of the cantina is AFK. I have renamed it to the "AFK CANTINA" so why are you all getting down on the bots. All a AFK dancer can do is level them selfs. AT lest I am providing a service to the players on my sever..


I bet 90% or MOST of the people that cry about bots have in face done a afk marco.. so do not throw stones in glass houses.


All the people that hate bots may now report me to the admin LOL...


Admin I have keep it "clean" and fair I ask that My voice be heard and that I can stick up for myself..


Thank you all for taken the time to read my bad spelling and all...


and to all the bot haters a Big M-O-L smile



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PoetDancer

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 1215

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:35 am Post subject:

If unattended buffbotting is such a noble thing, dear, do you proudly display your AFK tag when you macro unattended?



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
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Phantom_M-O-L

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:36 am Post subject:

I do not know why the double post sorry admin can you please remove th first one thank you. I am not trying to spam I do not know why it did that. Sorry everyone



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Phantom_M-O-L

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:38 am Post subject:

Sirii Ajaan yes I do...


But at night I have two computers I play one toon and wat the other so you never know when I am looking in to my dancer.. I do this more them people know...


I play swg 5 hours a night every night....

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FuschiaD

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 1903

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:56 am Post subject:

Phantom, I found your post offensive and inflammatory, and I think the tone of it was inappropriate for this thread. You are essentially calling us idiots and saying that we 'hate' you. That's absurd. I don't KNOW you. What I hate is what you and countless others like you do to my ability to earn money and MY playstyle.


Can I tell you how to play your game? No, of course not.I don't want to. But when it starts to interfere with how I play MINE, that's where I have to draw the line. You say you receive countless emails and tells thanking you for your buffbot. Of course you do. I never said buffbots aren't useful, but they're also incredibly detrimental to players who choose to actually *gasp* PLAY an entertainer.


I will say it again...

NO PROFESSION SHOULD BE FULLY AFKABLE FROM START TO FINISH.


That IS what this boils down to.


Do I use macros? Yes! I'm actually extremely dependent on them. Have I ever gone AFK while dancing? Yes. But I do not, under any circumstances, buff while AFK. I get odd looks for that, but it helps reinforce the fact that I AM NOT A BUFFBOT. I have to go AFK every night to pick my boyfriend up from work, and I run my macro rather than logout because mycomputer loads so slowly.




~*~ F U S C H I A D A R K W A L K E R ~*~
Yes, I'm a respec Jedi. Get over it.
~*~ A V A D I H A L O N A - S O E P ~*~
Entertainer For Life - COMPNOR Eye Candy

"You don't really rank around here unless you've been flamed by Oben, trolled by Mono, set straight by Geen, got caught in a love triangle between Cherry and Anoq, had your house decorated by Kipera, hugged by Esin, fondled by Fuschia, had IG respond with something inane and nonsensical, or at the very least been (a.) asked "can I have your stuff" or (b.) been accused of being a Todd by any number of random Tarquinian posters." --TalonKarrdeTN/Tyndaleon


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Phantom_M-O-L

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:03 am Post subject:

Fuschiad says "Phantom, I found your post offensive and inflammatory"

Of course you do. Becuase I speak the truth and people do not like the truth. Please tell me 1 lie or un truth about my post. you can not. So if you do not like buff bots then of course you will not like my post. BTW I am not trying to talk down to any one in my post "but My BANN LIST is growing bigger every day from people doing stupied stuff to my bott."that is what I am UPSET ABOUT.. So Fuschiad sorry you got mad but I guess I have to break some eggs to make the breakfast.. No big deal

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FuschiaD

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 1903

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:10 am Post subject:

I didn't say I got mad, sweetie pie. I said that you were trying to MAKE me mad. Ask anyone around here... if I get mad, you'll know.


I have absolutely zero problem with discussing the pros and cons of AFK buffbots in a calm, rational, reasonable manner. I didn't find your posts to be any of these, and I think that has no place in this thread. It will lead to a degeneration of the thread, eventually resulting in nothing butflamefests and trolling. I'd like to avoid that, so please try and word your posts a little more constructively, and have respect for those who have a differing viewpoint. You say that we are not respecting your playstyle, but if you do not respect ours, why should we?




~*~ F U S C H I A D A R K W A L K E R ~*~
Yes, I'm a respec Jedi. Get over it.
~*~ A V A D I H A L O N A - S O E P ~*~
Entertainer For Life - COMPNOR Eye Candy

"You don't really rank around here unless you've been flamed by Oben, trolled by Mono, set straight by Geen, got caught in a love triangle between Cherry and Anoq, had your house decorated by Kipera, hugged by Esin, fondled by Fuschia, had IG respond with something inane and nonsensical, or at the very least been (a.) asked "can I have your stuff" or (b.) been accused of being a Todd by any number of random Tarquinian posters." --TalonKarrdeTN/Tyndaleon


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Phantom_M-O-L

Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:18 am Post subject:

1 I am really not flaming anyone. i am stating problems I am having with people and my bot and what makes me laugh.

2 if you take it as flaming then sorry hehe

3 some of the stuff I have put in the postr is replays to a whole bunch of other posts in this topic "please read all posts on this topic and then read my post"

4 if I make you mad ok if i made you laugh ok but I will not cow town and I speak my mind good bad or indifferent. that is how I am and will remain.


Woot to everyone and please come see my buff bot for a good buff I got extra skill taps he is given good 2+ hr buff


Thanks everyone and have a great day woot


SMILE

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PoetDancer
Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:18 am
#42




Well dear, at least you are honest about it, I'll give you that much. Now a little about myself. I have been an at the keyboard dancer for longer than a year. I have never saw any reason to macro unattended. But don't get me wrong, even though I play a dancer on Bria, do not think that I refuse to understand your reasons for enjoying unattended entertainment. I do. In fact, I understand it all too well. Let me tell you the dirty little secret entertainer players are loathe to share: live entertainers cannot dish out game mechanics as efficiently, effectively, or as cheaply as an entertainer buffer. I, anyone in these forums who plays live, or anyone else simply cannot duplicate what a buffbot does. Because what can an entertainer player do in terms of the game mechanics?


1) Heal Battle fatigue.


2) Heal mind wounds.


3) Enhance the mind statistics.


What can an unattended character do?


1) Heal Battle fatigue.


2) Heal mind wounds.


3) Enhance the mind pools.


4) Be available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.


5) Is able to dispense these things and not be around to feel bad if its insulted.


6) Will continue to dispense these things for motivations unrelated to finances or the motives consistent with play, normally understood (ie, because the prime account "parks it" for his motivations, not the entertainer's).


So the deck is stacked against someone who plays live in a mechanics sense. Never denied it, and I cannot say its unreasonable for you all to do so. Many of you have second accounts if for no other reason than to get lots. So what else to do with your character than turn it into an unattended entertainer? I'm sure if you could create an unattended doctor that was not constrained by resources to do the same things, you would. Indeed, some have gone this route with dubious results. I'm sure you'd do it with smugglers in order to have a slicer available for free whenever one needed it. Yet the mechanics are such that this is impossible.


Now for entertainment characters, automation IS possible. In fact, it is rather easily facilitated. But make no doubt dear, running a buffbot is not playing. Its an abandonment of play. It simply defies any common sense understanding about what play is. Because in order to play this game, one needs a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and speakers and such. Simply paying 14.95 a month does not make one a player any more than someone who does not pay 14.95 a month is a player. Play is something that is actively engaged in for enjoyment. It is not something you automate and let run while doing other things. Stepping away from the pinball machine does not mean you are playing pinball, just because the pinball still bounces.


Now I have a perfect, fool proof solution to the problem of unattended entertainment. Simply take away the dancer's BF healing function, wound healing function, and buffing ability, and give all of these functions to doctors. Doing this will eliminate all the reasons to macro unattended. Yet even if all these functions were eliminated, I would still want to be a dancer. Many here would still want to be dancers. And I would venture to say my income would not suffer as much and my gameplay would still be as good--if not better--than today.


But the developers would never do this. Why? They want us to be dependent on each other. Don't ask me why, because I'd much rather deal with players thatlook forward to seeing me, rather than characters who could care less if they see me or some unattended character who makes no bones about the fact that it is boring, merely because it refuses to make the effort to be amusing.


But just because unattended characters do not play doesn't mean that non-players do not influence the game world. To set a buffer, you need notbe a playerat all. Simply login and press F1. You can even shut off your monitor, disconnect your mouse, turn off your sound, and influence the game world in a manner that mimics actual play. And I'm not saying this is right or wrong why you do these things at this point, but only acknowledging what it is, and what it isn't. Its impossible to play a buffbot, so non-players must do it. Because in order to do so, a live player must do the following:


1) Pay money to not sleep, eat, or do any other thing but be available to dish out game mechanics at all hours on all days, perpetually.


2) Pay money to perhaps stare at the walls of one cantina and have no need or incentive to explore anywhere else.


3) Pay money to not care about being tipped, being acknowledged, or advancing in any areas other than to be available, cheap (free), and effective.


I cannot do those things at the keyboard. You cannot do those things at the keyboard. Yet, this is fast becoming the benchmark of what you want an entertainer to be. But you never really wanted to play, watch or listen to entertainment. You only wanted the goodies that came from entertainment: BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs.Some have evenflat out argued that you think the music is horrible, the dancing only appeals to the sexually deranged, and the efforts to play these things are pointless. And I really don't thinkthey are saying these things becausethey truly mean them.They are saying these things to be mean spirited toward those who play these professions.


Why? I think its because you do not resent us as much as you resent SOE for putting you in the predicament you are in. Finding an entertainer is just one thing among many that you must find: like credits, maitenence pool payments, power collection, and doctor buffs. And the fact that we as a group of players are upset over the use and promulgation of unattended characters is threatening to the ease and convenience many of you enjoy. And it has turned into an abject hatred of what we do and why we do it, reducing our gameplay in your minds into silly and trite things, like viewing it as an online chatroom, or claiming that its unjust to make you all a captive audience for our behalf. Make your opinion all you want, however, because for every one of you that claims that what we do ruins your online experience, I find another that feels we enhance it.


Because they know that the truth of our profession is not a mere nine songs and about a dozen dances. Those are merely the building blocks of what we do, not the essence of it. And we do not run a chatroom. The use of dialogue types is just one of the things we do to fill in the space between /startwatch and /stopwatch. Because we know the things we do take time; time you'd rather not have to spend. We know you all hate having to go to the cantina, and we try to make this as enjoyable as possible. This is at least how it was designed to work. Because to tell you the truth, BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs are only the reason people come to us, and not the reason players tip us or appreciate us. It has always been this way. My biggest tips were for those things where I wasn't healing, like player events. Likewise, I have healed characters and got no tip. So in reality, the mechanics we offer to players really has no value to them at all. The thing that we get tips for is what we do WHILE we give out these things: attentive, creative, and immersive play.


And yet, if I ever was in a situation where someone was deliberately hurtful toward me, I always had the option to leave, and deny the cantina my services. The fact that buffbots really don't care if people insult them one way or another is a prime reason in my opinion why we have so many jerks. Because as long as a jerk can get everything he or she needs and still be a jerk, it will encourage jerky behavior.


And we have seen a lot of that toward entertainers. Because people likeyou know they have us over a barrel and can say whatever they feel like and not suffer any consequences in the simulation. I don't deny it. If everyone who plays an entertainer decided to take a hike, the galaxies will still be given everything they needed from unattended characters. And in fact, I am certain that the ratio of entertainers to customers at 4 AM is something like20 to 1.


And I'm sure it givesyou and others who systematically hate what we do some comfort to know that many entertainers are followingyour advice: They are quitting the game, quitting entertaining, or both. And it may soon come to the point where you may truly have no choice but to get BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs from a dedicated, unattended master in every cantina; be it in a player city or NPC city. And the cantinas will still be boring and dreadful to have to go to, just like now. But instead of a place where you might find something amusing going on from a live player who makes it his or her business to keep your eyes off the BF meter as it ticks down, it will be a place where you will have no choice but to put your ctrl-c screens up, press alt-tab, and suffer through a process that becomes much more meaningless as to why you even have to do it at all.


Which is why buffbots, ultimately, do not solve the problems of those who hate having to go to the cantina. Because sooner or later it is going to dawn upon those who use buffbots, "why should I even have to be part of this charade of going to the cantina at all?" Similarly, those who have buffbot accounts will say, "why should I even have to pay $15.00 a month, pay maitenance on a cantina, and suck up RAM so that people can freeload off me?" And buffbot owners are going to start charging for what by all rights is free: BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs. You may have already started to do this on your own buffbot. But have you considered that you will be unable to answer requests from the playerbase when they say, "why doesn't SOE just give these entertainment functions to real players who play doctors or chefs? Why should I have to pay an automated character a darn thing?" with the same logic you use every time of, "if you don't like it, tough. I spend my skillpoints, subscription fees, etc. to do this service, and I have a right to do it just like you have a right not to use it?"


Because that logic won't cut it when it gets to that point. Because we who play this thing and find enjoyment out of it will have long since moved on, and customers will find no utility of supporting a system where something so vital for play serves no purpose of growth or enjoyment from any party. They will be asking the developers to remove the cantina feature entirely, and remove these professions.


Don't get me wrong.For awhile, you will have a legion of patrons who run to the buffbot, let the buffbot do its work, press alt-tab to check the forums, tip, and leave. They will do this day in and day out. But each and every time they use a buffbot, they become less and less convinced that you do a service that is worthwhile, and more and more convinced that their gameplay experience would be a whole lot better if they just didn't have to worry about entertainment services at all.


Why is that? Because everybody else in this game besides unattended buffers have toput forth some effortinthe game world to advance and succeed. Crafters must buy power and pay maitenence, combatants must take missions, and scouts must gather hides. Andwhen players live in a galaxy where most of their entertainment services come fromvacant, unattended entities, each and everyonewillinvariably say to themselves,"why should we even tip or somehow be grateful to these unattended characters that do nothing but set a repeating macro, yet feel entitledto our respect and credits simply to give us some service that SOE feels we need?" Indeed, how will you respond dear, when they argue this to you? Will you use your same old line of "I provide a service, and its up to you to use it or not" along side of all the other lot mules, guild alts, and second accessory accounts? That won't cut it anymore.


Because your customers at this point will not be asking for entertainment to be enhanced for your sake, and many live entertainers who would benefit will have long since cancelled our accounts. They will be asking SOE to eliminate these professions entirely, and give actual players such as doctors or chefs the opportunity to provide the same services. And its not going to hurt you when they put forth the convincing case that they should eliminate these professions, it will hurt players like me, who have tried to play these professions the way that SOE originally intended them to be played. Because there is something inherently problematic in the notion that a player need only spend the effort each morning to press F1, and dispense their mechanics for an entire day for players they do not see, for reasons other than enjoying the things it does, without the least amount of effort to sustain it, perpetually, and without any sort of "endgame goal" for it to be anything other than it is: a 24/7 dispenser of mechanics.


And if it ever gets to that point where the entire business of entertainment is to get mechanics from a vaccant entity, then the patrons will have every leg to stand on when requesting these professions be removed. Becauseentertainment at this point become a farce of what a playable profession should be, an embarrassment for the development staff, a nusciance for the patrons, and more of a headache to actually play than to let the system play for the entertainer. And even though I enjoy and am good at entertaining, I am but one voice. For every one of me, there are ten of you who do not give SOE any reasons to keep and sustain these professions. In short, players like you who abandon play for the sake of dispensing the mechanics do not give SOE any incentive to keep and develop these professions. You only give SOE, the patrons, and the development staff reasons to think it was a mistake to include them at all.


SoI know which side the developers will take in this forseeable future argument, and it won't be the buffbots. Because the prevalence of buffbots does not give the development staff any reasons to keep these classes going. The prevalence of buffbots only give the development staff reasons to think that it was a mistake to include them at all. Because the bottom line is that in order for a game or a profession to be fun, you have to give someone incentives and reasons to play it. Not give incentives and reasons to "not play it." And if the cantina simply becomes a place where unattended characters give mechanics to unattended audiences, the entire entertainment experience is less a simulation of life in a galaxy far, far away, but merely a silly farce...and a bad one at that.


But make no mistake, the situation cannot be sustained in its current state for much longer. The player base as a whole (ents, buffbot owners, and other players) will at some point find reasons to disapprove. And at this point, the developers are going to make unattendedness a non-viable option, or they will create a fix to eliminate entertainers entirely anddivide up their fuctions to give to other classes. Either way, the current charade of unattended characters manipulating the environment in a way that mimics play will end. Either to give players a reason to stay at their monitor, keyboard, and screen in the cantina, or to make it so no player need not spend the agony of going to a place where entertainers are merely computers looping ui, and the audience is pressing alt-tab.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 09-09-2004 10:47 AM



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Phantom_M-O-L
Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:35 am
#43

so good points you made. i like this part

Poetdancer quote "BF healing function, wound healing function, and buffing ability, and give all of these functions to doctors. Doing this will eliminate all the reasons to macro unattended."


I agree 100% on the above on my post here.

I do not like people comming to the bot to get mind healing at all. I am capped. I do not need the xp. I tell them to go to the other dancers and get healed up. "but I can oly tell them"


I would not have a problem saying that a lopping marco can NOT heal BF at all. but can only buff that would be great.. and fine by me.


I am not out to steel anything at all. I am in this for my guild and to help myself and new people.

I do turn up the speakers and listen to the music LOL. drives the wife nuts LOL..


take way BF healing for looping marco and give it to LIVE dancers and musicans that want to punch the F1-F12 key all day long. and well not have ANY TYPE of marco running at all.. that is cool with me woot nicly say Poetdancer my hat is off to you about that bf healing

PoetDancer
Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:33 am
#44


Well Phantom dear, I am glad you are able to concede something to live players. However, I am afraid most of your kind would not make the same concession. In fact, I know they would not. Because they feel that entertainment should be just as viable away from the keys as at them. And the reason they think this way is not because they enjoy entertaining. They enjoy having available mechanics, and see live players as a barrier to achieving these goals simply because we are under the constraints that all live players are under.


Because they will say in a resounding chorus the same things you have said, "I pay 14.95 a month, and the way I choose to play should have no bearing on what I can and cannot heal."


The big debate over AFK versus live play is not the debate over what should promote a certain mode of play. It is the debate over how we define play. And the argument boils down towhether or notan account holder should have the power to influence the game world with their monitor, speakers, mouse, and all other apparati of play disabled in ways similar to those who are at the apparati of play.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 09-09-2004 11:34 AM



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Phantom_M-O-L
Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:44 am
#45

O I bet people would give a little. I do not see why I need to heal people. let be the job of the dancers in the cantina. I like to buff let me do that. I will even take this 1 step more. If you have a BF of 100 or more make it SO YOU have to see a dancer before you come and see me for a mind buff. and if it is less then 100 you can not get the full amout of the buff. This way we all get somethign out of dancing and playing music. I have no problem at all with that. I just wantt o buff I see no reason that I need to take away healing XP from the other dancers in the cantina at all. that is not why I made my bot.. I hope the other bots will agree with me on this point. and I hope the other dancers will agree so we can come to some middle groud on all of this and ask SOE to make it happen..



Dreamland
Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:48 am
#46






KaceyBronson wrote:





Dreamland wrote:





Isendel wrote:

To supply buffs and heals during the many times when a live entertainer is not avalable.






Who supplies doctor buffs and wound heals during the many times doctors are not available?




afk doctor buff bots









Do you see vast amounts of afk doctor buffbots in the same public venues as live doctors? You do not, because theres no way for the doctor buffbot to enforce a tip in a public place so when they do exist they're off in a house more often than not. A doctor Has to enforce a tip or they simply will not be able to continue buffing because buff packs cost money. Doctor buffbots also do not hinder the novice community because they don't deprive them of 90% of the healing xp that is done in the venue, like an entertainer buffbot does. Nor do they provide wound heals. And let me tell you it can be a challenge on less populated servers to get a wound heal during off peak hours.


All this said Doctor buffbots are wrong and should not be possible either. I see alot of buffbot's say oh but i tell the customers to watch the entertainer group first, and i don't stand in the doorway. Well thats fantastic, but the customers that are using a buffbot don't care about entertainers anyway so why should they be bothered to watch the entertainer group? In point of fact, they don't i've sat and watched brias most used buffbot for great lengths of time and she has an obscene amount of people using her, most of which whodo not watch the entertainer group first, or probably even know what an entertainer group is. The fact also remains that many buffbots do park themself as close to the door as possible.

Shaizann
Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:55 am
#47






Phantom_M-O-L wrote:

O I bet people would give a little. I do not see why I need to heal people. let be the job of the dancers in the cantina. I like to buff let me do that. I will even take this 1 step more. If you have a BF of 100 or more make it SO YOU have to see a dancer before you come and see me for a mind buff. and if it is less then 100 you can not get the full amout of the buff. This way we all get somethign out of dancing and playing music. I have no problem at all with that. I just wantt o buff I see no reason that I need to take away healing XP from the other dancers in the cantina at all. that is not why I made my bot.. I hope the other bots will agree with me on this point. and I hope the other dancers will agree so we can come to some middle groud on all of this and ask SOE to make it happen..








If buffing were not the primary means of economic viability I might agree to a middle ground stance. However, buffing is the primary means of economic viablity. Therefore, I do not see your idea as a workable one. Healing BF does not provide the income that buffing does, and we need it to keep ourselves afloat economically.


Your bot hurts us by trivializing our entire playstyle to the level of an NPC. I suppose you don't see it that way, but then you're not an ATK performer. I ask that you do try to see it from our side of things. Also, please try to be less inflammatory in your responses. I do not like being talked down to, and I'm sure you do not either.



Shailas V. Zann
Elder Grand Master Entertainer



"Guess what!?! I gotta fever!....And the only prescription is more cowbell."
Drygo
Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:58 am
#48






Phantom_M-O-L wrote:

O I bet people would give a little. I do not see why I need to heal people. let be the job of the dancers in the cantina. I like to buff let me do that. I will even take this 1 step more. If you have a BF of 100 or more make it SO YOU have to see a dancer before you come and see me for a mind buff. and if it is less then 100 you can not get the full amout of the buff. This way we all get somethign out of dancing and playing music. I have no problem at all with that. I just wantt o buff I see no reason that I need to take away healing XP from the other dancers in the cantina at all. that is not why I made my bot.. I hope the other bots will agree with me on this point. and I hope the other dancers will agree so we can come to some middle groud on all of this and ask SOE to make it happen..








But, I'm a master dancer, I don't need or want any more healing experience. I have no use for it. What I need, however, is the ability to use my elite profession to earn some credits. That's what you're taking away from me.



- I support hawtpants
Phantom_M-O-L
Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:04 am
#49

ok I am not going o say this one more time. I am not talking down to any one. if you think that sorry... you do not like buff bots you feel it hurts I feel your worng I tryed to find a middle ground. you can not expect that and want to keep pushing fine by me. you keep pushing I will keep smiling and dancing.. I was telling the truth. and it is funny how all the "pople hajacking and scamming has not come up from not 1 of you anti buff bots. I guess it is ok to do that stuff to people in the game but god help us if were buffing afk. nice doubble standard there poeple.. again I will just keep laughing to my self big M-O-L smile and have a great day!!

Dreamland
Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:05 am
#50






ThePurpleFish wrote:


I have posted once in this threed - but reading more made me think of a question..


I propose this to both entertainers and the people that want the buffs


Dancers/Musicians - Do you make sure that you tell every person that gets a buff from you that they are welcome to add you to their friends list so that they will know if you are online - thus enabliling them to send you a tell to find out if you are buffing


No i do not make a point of telling every stranger that comes to me for a buff that they can send me a tell any time im on and expect that its a guaranteed buff, because that would be false. I am available to buff 90% of the time that i am performing in a public cantina, and I am ATK 100% of the time, all someone need do is stand in front of me and ask in a polite way, or send a tell when they can see that im there. If someone were to atempt to befriend me and ask that they could put me on their list i would have no objection, but i'd make it clear that im not always going to be available just because im online.


and you Combat types having trouble finding a buff - Do you ask the entertainer if you may add them to your friends list (for the above stated reason)


Now I realize that the atmosphere varies from server to server - I dont find Lowca that bad .. Cantinas are a little heavy on the afk but buff bots are not that common..one or 2 here and there but for the most part they dont over take the cantinas


Come give bria a try, every major cantina has at least one buffbot, that includes dantooine and dathomir. Often planets like yavin will have one too. In fact one buffbot in particular is such a fixture that coronet cantina is even becoming undesireable to the afk entertainers because shes such a heal xp sop.


Now my point- I have people hop 3 planets to get a buff from me. They have me on their friends list, sent me a tell and are on their way. There are some nights I am overwhelmed by people coming to me for buffs. Tuesday, I buffed for 3 straight hours. Non-stop.



If ever person that likes to buff did this and every person that needs them did the same I think people would find that they are not that uncommon really. Any given night in theed there are at least 3 master dancers buffing ATK - I am usually the only musician buffing but...the dance buff is there.


I think its unrealistic to expect that every entertainer that likes to buffshould have to be that devoted just ot get the busness away from the buffbot. With the extremely high demand for mind buffs there should be room for someone to come dance for part of thier online time and still be able to sell a buff or two without having to market themselves as a buff supllier.






Shlomo_P
Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 am
#51

I don't have time to read all this banter since I am at work right now, but I just have to say I whole-heartedly support Phantom on this. SOoooooooooooooooooooo many times I get my regular buffs and then go to the Cantina to get my mind buff and EVERYONE there is AFK just dancing around -- maybe a few people are chatting, but when I ask about mind buffs, NO ONE responds. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking on my regular buffs, not to mention my limited time I have to play the game in general. So I am EXTREMELY GRATEFUL that a "buff bot" is almost always available so I don't have to waste time waiting for the chat room toons to finish their conversations before attending to their customers.


I would be happy to get buffs from someone who is really there and has Dancing or Music as their actual profession, but I just don't find those people.


Any one who actually plays as an Entertainer should be attentive to who walks in and address them with an offer for buffs right when they walk in, like salesmen at a car dealer or some retail establiashment like that --since this is your business afterall.


And in Phantom's defense again, he does put his toon way ini the corner away from everyone else so all his customers have to walk through the crowd first -- this should give all real entertainers the chance to draw these people in as customers first.



Major Shlomo von Pimmpenhymann IV
...has Mastered the Empty Vendor Shopper profession
...was banned once from the forums for verbally slapping a whining Jedi.
Xystus Syzygy: Master Smuggler, finder of things...
VENDOR: Misc & Smuggler items -- and coming soon -- Armor: Naboo, Lake Retreat -5835 -149 371
Shaizann
Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:17 am
#52






Phantom_M-O-L wrote:

ok I am not going o say this one more time. I am not talking down to any one. if you think that sorry... you do not like buff bots you feel it hurts I feel your worng I tryed to find a middle ground. you can not expect that and want to keep pushing fine by me. you keep pushing I will keep smiling and dancing.. I was telling the truth. and it is funny how all the "pople hajacking and scamming has not come up from not 1 of you anti buff bots. I guess it is ok to do that stuff to people in the game but god help us if were buffing afk. nice doubble standard there poeple.. again I will just keep laughing to my self big M-O-L smile and have a great day!!









This discussion is not about "pople hajacking and scamming has not com up from not 1 of you anti buff bots". You have missed my point. Griefing players is not the right way to go about things in any case and I don't advocate it. It is not a double standard.


The discussion is about the merit/lack of merit of buffbots and what they do/do not do to hurt live entertainers. As Drygo has said, the middle ground you were looking for is not a compromise that we can have because of the fact that Master Dancers and Master Musicians have no need of healing exp. Therefore, asking to keep our ability to make money as your own is not an accpeptable answer in my mind.



Shailas V. Zann
Elder Grand Master Entertainer



"Guess what!?! I gotta fever!....And the only prescription is more cowbell."
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