Dancer Archive
Thread: Why is Dancing regarded so poorly by those in other professions?
Hijo wrote:
"Is it just sexism directed at a career that predominantly features females, or is it something different?"
Actually it is a career that features males playing females, and most people realize this. I don't know if that taints the class at all for some people, but most guys I think realize that any female they see dancing is actually a boy.
Actually there are quite a few real life females that not only play games but play dancers in these games. We're quite easy to recognize if you take a few moments to get to know us and not make silly assumptions that all people that play games are really fat 45 year olds named earl.
100% female
100% gamer girl
Deal with it!
My only problem with the dancer profession is Battle Fatigue and mind wounds. It's all well and good from game mechanics to need to 'unwind' to clear your mind. But really, it kills some of our rp's. I want to roleplay the dissillusioned soldier. The kind that's seen so much combat that there mind simply doesn't 'tic' as normal anymore. The stone cold soldier. Yes sir, right away sir, i will kill sir.
Simply put, for my character, where he is now, it's not in a 'relaxing' 'watch dancers' mood. It's 'i am a machine...'. And it completely kills my rp mood when i have to go to cantina's to watch dancers or musicians. I usualy wait until i have somewhere around 200 BF and 100 mind wounds before i have to go. And i don't rp in cantina's. It simply doesn't fit the mentality of my character.
I tried one time...and an entertainer threw a rp question at me "So why are you here then, soldier?". NO answer i could give that would fit my character. Simply put, my character would NOT be in a cantina partying, watching dancers and listening to music. I don't see darth vader going to a cantina after hunting down jedi's. I don't see the emperor going to cantina's after throwing lightning bolts...and i don't see bobba fett in cantina's after getting shot to hell.
Personally, i think from a roleplaying point of view, battle fatigue is killing the roleplaying aspect of this game (for me). Some people get "Hardened" from extreme amounts of battle. They don't become weaker and heal weaker...no, they because uncaring emotionless killing machines. Or they hit the bottle pretty hard. Ok, so i get shot in the head...a medic can't heal the gaping wound in my forehead, but a dancer can? I mean come on, this is ridiculous. Medics should be able to heal ALL wounds, and battle fatigue should be completely removed or add different kinds of penalties for battle fatigue. (Such as you become more reckless and fearless, thus you are easier to hit. -10 to all evades.) Things like that i could live with...but being forced to go to cantina's throw me out of an rping mood and then it's hard to get back into it.
There are all sorts of things you can do in a cantina besides go there to relax.
Hmm. Another one. Dancer: "*cheery* So what brings you to our cantina?" You: *glare* You: "My commander told me I should come here and watch the dancers." Then sit down and occasionally /stare at random people in the cantina as if they were from another planet. Er... Well... You know what I mean.
nvoigt wrote:
Could you please quote where I said that? Thanks. You must've gone to the CantinaFly School of Journalism...
I did. Look at my post again. I quoted you. If it doesn't show up, check your browser configuration.
Well you quoted me, but then you said something completely different than I said and claimed that I said it...
Ndainye, yes, I didn't mean to say that every female character is a male... but most of them are. I'm sure most of the "females" on this board are men too. I know this for a fact of several people on these boards - who post her still as females when they really aren't... IMO that goes beyond roleplaying, but whatever floats your boat I guess.
Aleksander_Graveheart wrote:
I tried one time...and an entertainer threw a rp question at me "So why are you here then, soldier?". NO answer i could give that would fit my character. Simply put, my character would NOT be in a cantina partying, watching dancers and listening to music. I don't see darth vader going to a cantina after hunting down jedi's. I don't see the emperor going to cantina's after throwing lightning bolts...and i don't see bobba fett in cantina's after getting shot to hell.
Hey, Boba Fett looked like he was relaxing in Jabba's palace (Special Edition, of course).
I picture Darth Vader as the type to watch a symphony play some Mozart *grin*
As for RPing. In that situation, say nothing. But /emote is your friend.
"So why are you here then, soldier?"
/emote raises his eyesbrows and glances over his shoulder to see who %NT refers to.
/emote realizes with disgust that this dancer would try to make conversation with him.
/emote glares icily at %NT, hoping that she'd just shut up and mind her own business.
And just in case the player takes offense, you could send a /tell and maybe a /tip to let him/her know that you're just RPing.
Or not. It's increases the verisimilitude if people really do think you're that antisocial.
Very interesting topic, thanks for the good discussion.
The point of view of the (ooh so much hated 
tailor here ) :
- First, I see were the devs are coming from. Entertainers, whether IDs, musicians, and dancers are the only professions in the game that have absolutely no expenses (aside from training which is common to all professions). Every single credit made is bonus. People tend to forget artisans commonly have like 10k per day in maintenance (compared to the 10k per liftetime an exoctic leotard will cost at most, and it is purely optional to advance in the profession), and that combat classes high end weapons and armors can amount to hundreds of credits.
Now I am playing the devil's advocate here. I think you guys SHOULD be able to make money at a decent rate, like artisans and combat professions do after deducing their expanses. Just that I understand dev's reticence to throw money into the economy without putting on a corresponding money sink.
- Now one of the pet peeves I have is with some"schizophrenic" entertainers (who I understand, are minority, but alas sometimes a bit to "vocal", or spammy would be the right word). They ask to be tipped royally, because of the precious time they invest and the service they provide. Fine, and I am confortable with it (not so confortable about having it remembered every 10s though). However, the same people will usually abuse me for not selling Exotic Leotards at 1c per ressouce or other stupidity, just because I am not supposed to sell for more than the ressource cost of my product ? 
Guess that the time I spend grinding to the top of my profession, taking the custom order (not advertising or anything, just minding my own business then get the no hello, no greetings "make me a fleshrwap" tell), making all the factory components (stupid bug 
), and the service I provide taking time, often dozens of minutes trying to find out with the customer the right combinations of clothes and colors and all the advices ... well that time is not as precious it seems
Ok that was just a bit rantish (especially when there are, a minority), but just to give a perspective to the minority that seems to hate us
As far as I am concerned, I have the utmost respect mature and roleplaying dancers and musicians who take the time and effort to "entertain", ie do something artistic that is pleasing to the eyes and ears, and generally feel some sense of kinship with them (my profession is about making "beautiful" things too).
I generally do give a few hundred credits to any entertainers that don't even do the bare minimum (AFKs, etc ...) just because I have been healed. For friendly and roleplaying entertainers, they generally get away with fine, expensive and colorful free clothes that are generally worth more than what even decently generous people use to tip.
I haven't tested this for BF, but I know that mind wounds do heal slowly in medical centers, just as other wounds do. I wouldn't be surprised if BF was the same way.
Aleksander_Graveheart wrote:
... I wish there was another way of getting rid of bf and mind wounds.
"This soldier is going to crack and go on a shooting spree soon! I'd better order him to go wind down..."
And..."My commander told me to come here and watch dancers..." Right...*L*
Okay, it's a bit silly, yes.
"Entertainers, whether IDs, musicians, and dancers are the only professions in the game that have absolutely no expenses (aside from training which is common to all professions)."
Erm... have you ever checked out the cost of a dancing outfit? The nice onesare over 10,000 credits. To say that we have no expenses is the same as saying that scouts have no expenses - after all, they don't 'need' guns - they can punch their prey to death.
Dancers need outfits to ply their trade, just as hunters need guns.All professions in the gamehave expenses. I'm sorry, but your assertion shows a basic ignorance of how dancers play the game. You assume that guns are necessary for hunters because hunters make money hunting game, and guns make that easier, but you cannot seem to grasp the same truth about dancers - that they make money by entertaining the public, and a nice dress makes that easier. Why is there an apparent disconnect between the reality of the game's dancing professionand the average non-dancer's brain?
Honestly, if dancers went into the other professions' forums and exhibited the amount of ignorance about those professions as non-dancers exhibit here, we'd be soundlyridiculed for it. Only in the entertainment forums can peoplemake the most ludicrous generalizations and outright false statements and get away with it. Well you folks aren't gonna get away with it with me.
"People tend to forget artisans commonly have like 10k per day in maintenance (compared to the 10k per liftetime an exoctic leotard will cost at most,"
The difference is, artisans are WELL paid for their work, while dancers are VERYpoorly paid. 10,000 creditstakes a LOT of time and effort for a dancer to make, with dance missions payingunder 200credits, while an artisan can make that sum relatively easily. Artisans can afford to pay 10k per day in maintenance. Dancers would have difficulty making enough topay 1000 credits per day.
Beery wrote:
And a dress won't last a lifetime. The public wants to see us in different outfits - not just one.
Are you sure it's 'The Public' and not simply you transferring your own desire for a new outfit onto your audience, and thus transferring the cost of that to your audience as well?
Mariki wrote:Entertainers are regarded poorly because we can not demend payment for our services. We are looked upon as the person on the street with the hat on the ground.
** snip**
Credits and respect go hand in hand.
I am not sure that this is correct, at least in terms of the game and in terms of why people disrespect dancers in the game and on this forum.
This game is very strange in terms of its playerbase. As near as I can tell, it is comprised, in nearly equal measure, of 3 groups of people -- groups which are not mutually exclusive. These are (1) MMORPG nuts who play whatever the new cool game of the quarter or half-year is, (2) Star Wars fantatics who play anything and everything Star Wars,and (3) true roleplayers, who look for and play games with high RP and such content. I for one am probably equally composed of 2 and 3 (NOT 1, this is my first MMORPG unless you count MUSHes, which I really don't).
The problem is that people who do not bear any feelings from one of the groups do not understand and, in general do not really respect, the members of that group. MMORPG nuts are generally "grinders" who are out to kill junk and loot it. To them, the better you are at killing and looting the more they respect you. If you kill THEM in a fair and even fight they will respect you even more. If they kill you they will jump up and down on your dead body and shout something like "d00d I owned j00!" and have no respect for you, etc. For these people, someone who is for example a roleplayer is just unfathomable. What could possibly be fun about sitting around in a cantina all day using chats and emotes? Jeez, why do you pay $15/month when you can do that for free in an IRC chatroom! (I have seen these exact words many times on the main forum, so I am not making this up.)
On the other hand to a true roleplayer, the "l33t d00dz" who run around killing and "owning" things are silly juveniles who are not sophisticated enough to understand what a true RPG is. True roleplayers consider gaming using social emotes in the cantina one of the highest forms of gaming experience and have little or no interest in killing things "for the grind." Now, if they are playing a murderous knave sure they will kill and do it "in character" but all this PVP "ganking" and stuff is just beyond them.
To be fair, just as the "l33t d00dz" do not, and probably will never, respect the roleplayers, the roleplayers tend not to respect the "l33t d00dz" either, so it is a 2-way street.
However, to the (1) crowd and probably some of the (2) people as well, the idea of playing a class whose entire existence revolves around socializing and roleplaying is just alien. Most of them will never understand, and, hence, never respect the socializers.
My question though is, why should we (socializers) care? As long as nothing is done to the game to break the parts we like, I say live and let live. There's room for all 3 types of players in the game (clue time: SOE and LA did made it like that on purpose to increase the appeal range of the game).
Don't try to get respect from the "l33t d00dz". You'll never get it, and frankly I wouldn't want it. Yes, this means they will do stupid things like /licking and /molesting dancers... best thing to do is slap 'em upside the head (hey, if THEY can force-emote to you, you can do it back) and then stick 'em squarely onto the /ignore list. Eventually they will get bored and go back to the PVP "ganking" they love so much or the other killing stuff, and you will be left in peace.
Bottom line though: this is about differences in play style, NOT about credits. The creit issue is a vestige of the play style differences (SOE and LA fell into the tiny little trap of "more risk of death = greater reward" from the old D and D days, and have not quite been able to let that go, even though it is inapplicable to this game -- have no fear though; they are smart and will realize that sooner or later and fix entertainer missions appropriately). But anyway credits do not grant respect. People tend to only respect those who are good at whatever their own personal play style is. For example I hold the good roleplayers on my server (Naritus) in very high esteem, and basically ignore the people who don't roleplay (not /ignore, mind, just I don't really pay much heed to them unless there are no other roleplayers around, in which case I am more likely than not to just leave and go out surveying or crafting or something). The "l33t d00dz" hold others like them in high esteem and do not respect roleplayers. The Star Wars fans... er, well... I guess they respect people who know more Star Wars trivia than they do (hee hee).
See my point? It's not about credits... it never has been, really. Credits are the symptom, not the problem.
C
The difference is, artisans are WELL paid for their work, while dancers are VERYpoorly paid. 10,000 creditstakes a LOT of time and effort for a dancer to make, with dance missions payingunder 200credits, while an artisan can make that sum relatively easily. Artisans can afford to pay 10k per day in maintenance. Dancers would have difficulty making enough topay 1000 credits per day.
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You are a very angry person Beery. Stop jumping on the gun and re read carefuly what I have said. I was trying to take the developer's point of view and playing the devil's advocate. So stop flaming me for ingnorance, thanks. There is no need to vent your frustrations about the player communityby jumping into this post, because I am not disagreeing with you.
But I do agree with the fact that my post was not very clear, so I'll try to reword.
Of course, entertainers NEED money and have expenses, in order for them to "experience" the entertainer class to the fullest, roleplay, entertain their audience, to live in the Star Wars universe as an entertainers.
However I was strictly talking about direct, in game money sinks. There is no game mechanics that prevent an entertainer to go from novice to master in any of the entertainer profession without shelling out a single credit (and at a decent rate) - except for training.
Also, as you so eloquently explain - and visibly it's not the opinion of the majority of the entertainers, but you have to be consistent -, the basic service an entertainer provides and what he should be paid for is the BF and mind heals (no tip for smile in your own words). There is absolutely no game rule that make wearing an exotic leotard mandatory to heal battle fatigue (at least until bio engineered tissues are fixed). In fact, running after tailors to change outfit colors three times a day is probably "counter-productive in regards to your ability to play the game efficiently".
What I said is that, as there is no in-game money sink dedicated to entertainers, I can see (not that I agree with it) the developer's reluctance to introduce an in-game money generation by entertainers. And I am pretty sure that if they open a faucet for the entertainer classes, one of the other professions, whether combat or artisans will probably have to pay for the corresponding money sink (not that I disagree with that, just stating the obvious).
Hope this is more clear ?
So now, my personal opinion is that entertainers do need money to experience their profession to its potential (clothes, outfits, roleplay props, houses), and that they are usually not tipped enough, and not respected enough by their fellow players. As such, I generally offer clothes tosupport them, as long asI appreciate the work they do in the cantinas (and no I am notoverly subejctive, anything more than "tip me plz" will beenough)?
Do I still count for an ignorant ? But the respect should go both way I think. I see these times customers also taking a lot of flak from angry entertainers. Whethere the anger is justified or not is besides the point. Despising 90% of your fellow players, and waging a war of bitterness against them is not really constructive.
First, I see were the devs are coming from(...) Now I am playing the devil's advocate here (...) Just that I understand dev's reticence to throw money into the economy without putting on a corresponding money sink.
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Well after rereading my post, there was no need for an apology. I was crystal clear, and still don't understand what warranted the agression.
Bah, good luck all, keep up the good work, I'll still support and use my judgment despite the bad apples that tarnish the profession.