Dancer Archive
Thread: WHOA! Look at all the changes!
Page 4 of 4
PoetDancer
Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:03 pm
#40
Else-Whira wrote:
Hey Sirii, who are you to call me an AFKer or a crappy dancer that ignores everyone who walks through the door just because I don't think people should have to be wounded and battle fatigued as long as they currently are? Seriously. You don't know me, you've never played beside me. I have been a dancer as long or longer than anyone who still posts here and think I know a thing or two about how and what to do as a dancer. I don't agree with you that this is somehow a negative and in anyway going to hurt us. The people that are willing to interact with us now don't need wounds and fatigue for 10 mins just so you have a captive audience. They are going to interact with you no matter how long it takes for the actual healing.
The sky is not falling. Taking a little of the down time associated with our profession is not gointg to hurt us it's going to get the people who realy do not want to interact with us up and out the door in the ammount of time that doesn't leave them frustrated and looking to put that anger on a another player (most often us).
I know it's easy to say that anyone who doesn't agree with you is one kind of dancer and one type of player. I know you really want to see it as us vs them thing, but it really isn't. Removing down time from the way our profession works isn't going to ruin your game play, you can still ignore everyone around you and treat them like crap because you assume that they are staring at thier experince bar or are so busy talking to each other in group chat that they don't see how great you are as a dancer (see I can throw out generalizations about you too... Doesn't make either of us anywhere near right.)
Maybe a big part of your problem is that you have been in the cantina too long, try playing the other role for a while. Look at the game the other point of view. Things that speed up the game play are never bad. People that only have 20 minutes or an hour to play need every second they can get to have the some fun. If that means I only 30 seconds to entertain someone so be it. I know one of my biggest problems with th role of combatant is the terrible time investment in prep and in wind down after the combat. Taking out the time invested in star port waits, healing down time and enhancing down time means that players who normally wouldn't have the time to go out and kill something might just be able to. This means more players playing, more players needing healing, more players needed crafted items (cause they'll use more if they are out adventuring more) more players taking the time to come in for enhancements. In short, it is good for the economy of the game which means it is good for us.
What did I say to deserve this from you? I don't think you are a "crappy dancer" at all. But I do think they are out there. I'm not the only one who thinks they are out there. ManyCarbineers, Bounty Hunters, and Armoursmithson your galaxy boards think so too. Indeed, Else, you have one of the characteristics that is essential to our craft: spirit. Because unless a dancer believes in him or herself, the cantina can be filled with a lot of woe. You care enough about these issues to come here and post. And I recall when I was beginning to post on these boards that I spoke rather similarly to you. But by the same token, I really do not understand what is so dreadfully long with the times now that the development staff put it upon themselves to see fit to change them.
The developers in their wisdom had deemedthat a75% reduction in healing is something they may think can solve some cantina problem. What the problem is, and why it took them this long to figure it out now, only they (and maybe Delia) may know. What is so bad about our functions now that it was deemed 4x too time consuming for the audiences in this game? If this has to do with what our audiences want, then why not instantaneous healing and buffs? After all, Else, just as you say, "The people that are willing to interact with us now don't need wounds and fatigue for 10 mins just so you have a captive audience." Well dear, if that's the case, then the people that are willing to interact with us now don't need wounds and fatiuge for even two and a halfminutes just so we can have a captive audience.
So why not just make a BF of 1000 just zero out upon /watch and buffs go instantaneous upon a valid /setperform? Because that would make us even more effective, would trouble the ones who want nothing to do with the cantina feature even less, and wouldn't prevent anyone who did not want to interact with us from doing so.
You say I am fighting a battle, Else. I am. I am fighting against the mindset that has become fashionable amongst us as of late that we shouldn't even attempt to create a show to patrons that, at first glance, seem not to be interested in anything but the bare mechanics of what we do. And its reasonable to see how we got this way, since we see a lot of board posts to the effect of "I don't go to the cantina to socialize. I go to get my BF healed and get buffed." Well of course they do! But what are they going to do when getting these things attended to but sit and let us do our work? And if we think that our work need only consist of skill-animating, then its no wonder why our patrons don't think of the professions as anything more than a heap of mechaics with futility attached.
From my experience,this class isnot in the business of socializing with only those who want to socialize with us, and getting those who want the mechanics out the door as fast as possible.I feel weare there to give a show to everyone. Because who knows? The player may like what they see so much, that they may have come in with every intention of going away, but would rather stay because of the fun we provide. Take it or leave it all you want, Else. But I think this way of looking at our role can serve the new dancer a lot more than the advice of, "shut up and get the powergamer out of the cantina."
Combat can be fun. Combat can also be tedious, boring, and time consuming. The cantina can be tedious, time consuming, and boring too. It can also be even more fun than the things they do outside the cantina. Because just like eveything else in the game, fun is a matter of perception, freshness, and depth. Just because we provide a cantina experience in no way, shape, or form automatically assumes that being in the cantina is a "waste of time." It can be a very fun time if the dancer is able to make it such for the audience. We may not always be sucessful, but that is my goal when I perform. Downtimes can be good times just waiting to happen, but only if the parties to it are open enough to allow good times to take place. The fact that the audience may be reluctant only makes the dancer's job that much more challenging to discover a way to break through.
But I personally don't buy in to this notion that the elimination and mitigation of time sinks is better for the game. The elimination of time sinks, in my opinion, only makes things more boring and predictable. Which is a good thing I guess if one is trying to maximize one's success. A bad thing if we are all trying to find something exiting or out of the ordinary. Some even say that the prevalence of unattended buffbot mules are good for the economy, because they reduce the "downtime" needed for high-end combat preparations. And if the elimination of all downtime is considered to be a primary objective of this profession, then we shouldn't just refuse to argue against unattendedness, but we should institute it as a matter of right. If the downtime of our abilities is so very bad for the game, then why not, as I said, create instantaneous healing and buffs?
Because I have seen the other side as a combatant. Let me tell you, Else. The fact that the healing time is slow made me appreciate the dancers and musicians who made the time go by in an amusing way even more. Because watching the ctrl-c screen go down when one sits in front of a boring show seems a lot longer than the actual time it takes.
If the change goes through, I'll have no choice but to deal with it, Else. But I'll just state for the record here that I do notthink it is an improvement for dancers like me. Regard it or disregard it all you want. I do think it is an improvement to those who possess a dancer-accessory mule. After all, they don't care about anything other than the mechanics anyway.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 01-30-2005 05:36 PM
Else-Whira
Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:28 pm
#41
Before you write another 5 paragraph essay on what I need to do, come watch me dance and see what it is I do.
I'm willing to do the same for you but I can bet my ass what I will see is you doing the same things that every other ATK dancer I know does.
Keep in mind every server has a different population and a different feel depending upon what kind of entertainment you provide. It may be that you enjoy surrounding yourself in crowded cantinas and dancing to the people who are searching for buff bots, it may be that you enjoy an empty cantina where only the occaisional passer by will wander through... I don't know.
I'm willing to do the same for you but I can bet my ass what I will see is you doing the same things that every other ATK dancer I know does.
Keep in mind every server has a different population and a different feel depending upon what kind of entertainment you provide. It may be that you enjoy surrounding yourself in crowded cantinas and dancing to the people who are searching for buff bots, it may be that you enjoy an empty cantina where only the occaisional passer by will wander through... I don't know.
Panthu
Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:51 pm
#42
Oh goodness! You are both right kind of... you two are just looking at this from two different viewpoints, but every Ent Corr has argued from each side on more than one occasion and even the Devs have this split among themselves. Both views are right, because they are both Dancer views.
We don't know these things for sure yet because our design and role is still blurry. We just have to muddle through what they give us for now and try to help Deila ask for things to improve us. One day, this will all be clear and settled, but it's not right now so there is no reason to fight about it amongst ourselves.
/tsk
/whisper Be sweet Dancers! Stop calling out names!
DarkY0da
Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:02 pm
#43
On one hand I look at this stuff and think... Ohh that's good.. On the other hand....
Reduced Shuttle time again
Survey while Mounted
no AP XP
Duel Buffing (fixed at long last)
reduced healing and buffing times
and lots of other changes that just scream out to me that something is very wrong with it.
These Changes and others help a player SPEED through this game. They Grind quickly to a template. They Do everything in the game Solo. And then whine about content and how boring it all is. And leave to the next big thing in MMO's.
They game really is becoming easier for "Solo" players that need NO interdependance on other players or Professions.(As once they quickly go through everything they just grind toward Jedi)
It gives me pause when I see some of this stuff. And concerns me greatly for the future of Interdependance in this game and dependance upon other players.
A minute... or a minute 20... Maybe they should just remove the buffing and healing aspect and make it so everyones stats are 5k to each and they gain no BF or wounds. And then make the Entertainer Professions 0 sp cost.
I mean as everyone says those that want to interact with us will still do it. But at least with 0 sp cost Everyone that honestly wants to play music and join a band can. Everyone that wants to dance at a party or join a dance troupe can.
Reduced Shuttle time again
Survey while Mounted
no AP XP
Duel Buffing (fixed at long last)
reduced healing and buffing times
and lots of other changes that just scream out to me that something is very wrong with it.
These Changes and others help a player SPEED through this game. They Grind quickly to a template. They Do everything in the game Solo. And then whine about content and how boring it all is. And leave to the next big thing in MMO's.
They game really is becoming easier for "Solo" players that need NO interdependance on other players or Professions.(As once they quickly go through everything they just grind toward Jedi)
It gives me pause when I see some of this stuff. And concerns me greatly for the future of Interdependance in this game and dependance upon other players.
A minute... or a minute 20... Maybe they should just remove the buffing and healing aspect and make it so everyones stats are 5k to each and they gain no BF or wounds. And then make the Entertainer Professions 0 sp cost.
I mean as everyone says those that want to interact with us will still do it. But at least with 0 sp cost Everyone that honestly wants to play music and join a band can. Everyone that wants to dance at a party or join a dance troupe can.
Drygo
Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:31 pm
#44
This is tricky.
Sometimes I feel as if buffing has become such a major nuisance, not at all what I thought it would be, and not at all what I think the devs thought it would be. I've gone way beyond the anger now. Very rarely do I lash out about buffbots anymore. I'm just tired of doing so, and I'm holding onto a wait and see attitude, because I've pretty much come to the conclusion that buffbots are here to stay until the recursive macro nerf. There's nothing I can do about it. Sure, I argue once in a blue moon now, but generally, no.
The reason I even bring up buffbots here is because what Sirii said made me stop and think a bit. I never really thought of it this way. But, she brings a perspective that I haven't quite considered, when she says:
" I am fighting against the mindset that has become fashionable amongst us as of late that we shouldn't even attempt to create a show to patrons that, at first glance, seem not to be interested in anything but the bare mechanics of what we do. And its reasonable to see how we got this way, since we see a lot of board posts to the effect of "I don't go to the cantina to socialize. I go to get my BF healed and get buffed."
I think to some extent this is true. It's sort of part of why I've given up on fighting against unattended play at this point. When I first started buffing, I used to do it in ten to twelve minutes. It didn't bother me in the least, and it really didn't seem to bother the people I was buffing. Yet, somehow over the past year or so, that seemed way too long. Three and a half minutes is how long I take to buff now. And, I admit, I am more interested in the mechanics of the buff than the performance. My buffing macro has nothing to do with performing. I've come to view it as a game mechanics service. And, I was thrilled to see the buffing time reduced by half. I bought into the idea that buffing was a service and not a performance, and the quicker I can get people out, the better.
I still do believe this, if I'm going to be honest. But, when I go back to the beginning and think about why I started dancing, it wasn't to buff. I wonder if I'd still be dancing if mind buffs were never introduced. The answer is, probably. I would have never known a world with mind buffs and it wouldn't make a difference to me. It's sort of like the recursive macro. People are crying about how it's going to end. But, the truth is, if it never existed, nobody would be crying about it. It's hard to give something and then take it away.
Now, I know the devs wanted to give us entertainers a marketable skill. Unfortunately, other parts of the game (ie, the macro system) led to a situation where this completely blew up in our faces (probably the devs faces, too.) It was a noble thought, however.
So, what do we do about this? Should we be trying to think of something else for us to do besides buffing, that is more in line with performing, but still includes a marketable skill? As I said, once you have something, it's hard to let go. I honestly don't want our source of income to be tips for healing and entertainer missions solely. I want us to do something other players want (not necessarily need), that they will pay us for. I don't really know the answer.
But, while I do like the idea that buff time is reduced currently because of the immediacy of the situation (ie, these people want to get out and go kill stuff, I truly believe they *don't* want to be entertained at this point), I also don't agree with the reduced time for mind wounds. I didn't make a big stink about it because I figure battle fatigue is really a bigger issue, and that time has not been reduced. Most of us are healing battle fatigue long after the mind wounds run out. Other things I never "fought" about, but disagree with, include the shuttle time waits. I was always of the mindset that they helped with immersion. I never understood what the big deal about them was. I also don't like the idea of no AP xp.
As Oh-Orb says above:
"They game really is becoming easier for "Solo" players that need NO interdependance on other players or Professions.(As once they quickly go through everything they just grind toward Jedi)
It gives me pause when I see some of this stuff. And concerns me greatly for the future of Interdependance in this game and dependance upon other players."
It gives me pause when I see some of this stuff. And concerns me greatly for the future of Interdependance in this game and dependance upon other players."
It gives me pause too. Some of these things are great, especially the storage issues. I never found any benefit to storage caps. It doesn't increase interdependency at all, unless you count lot rentals. But, I don't really think that was intended by the devs. But, generally, I don't see how increasing storage is hurting anybody.
But, as Oh says, I am concerned about the future of the game. I'm concerned about the increasing lack of interdependence. I suppose the combat revamp might help some. Apparently it's going to make group combat more necessary. That's good. But, where does it leave those of us, such as entertainers, who may not be involved in combat? Where will our interdependency come from? When will we have downtime anymore? Will things become to easy and too speedy so that the building of communities will no longer be a priority for people? We no longer need students and teachers, and I find that kind of sad. We no longer have shuttleport interaction, which also makes me sad. And, we'll have less cantina interaction, if that was even possible, which, of course, makes me sad.
I think the devs have been doing a good job recently, and I'm willing to put my trust in them that they have some sort of master plan to balance these concerns. Maybe they are taking away what most people deem as nuisances, and maybe they're planning on adding more interdependencies that we never imagined, but are more fun. I don't really know. But, I hope so. Because, I really don't want to play a solo game.
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