Dancer Archive

Thread: The Customer in a World of Dedicated Unattended Buffers.

Dreamland
Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:27 pm
#27








Im not taking away their chance to play, it is really all up the to person(s) getting healed as to who they want to /watch or /listen to. "Buffbots" aren't taking anything away from "LIVE" entertainers, its just that the people getting healed go to the bots instead of the live people, it is all their choice, not ours.


Hothype, it would take alot of programming, testing, etc to get them music and dancing things you were saying about, and the only thing which the songs could be set as is like Macro's, so you wont be able to literally teach them to people, you could just give them a certain coding via Gmail or something.






Ok maybe this will work on the third try sorry about the above two posts.




Yes you are taking something away, When a bufbot parks themself in the entrance to a cantina and spams about their services they are deliberately taking action to draw as many customers in as they can. As a combat player given the option to get your buffs and have your battle fatigue healed at the same time and be out the door in 8 minutes, as oposed to watching the entertainer group first so that they may get the healing xp they need to continue,What would you choose? From personal experience of trying to dance in coronet to gain healing experience, it was very madening to see a bufbot in the doorway with 10 people around it at all times and more coming in while the entertainer group continualy recieved zero healing xp, and zero watching xp bonus for hours on end.


What your doing is a cop out, its like saying hey people have a right to chose if they want to buy my drugs or not when i stand there selling them. You are creating something that is a magnet to every experienced combat player on the server and placing it next to those that need their atention.
Vorpaks
Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:01 am
#28

I will agree that some of the resposibility for supporting afk-macro exploiters lies with the customer, but not all of it. When a customer chooses to watch a buffbot, knowing that doing so is supporting the use of an exploit that ruins the game for many players, then that customer is at fault. Is knowingly and purposefully hurting other people because, quite frankly, they want what they want and screw everyone else.

If you create and run a buffbot, knowing that doing so is using an exploit that ruins the game for many players, then you are at fault. You cannot excuse yourself by shifting blame to the customer. I say this knowing that most people reading it will have another, conveinient excuse because, quite frankly, they want what they want, and, well, screw everyone else. The sad thing is when people who honestly believe they are nice people come in and try to defend their use of exploits.

The Entertainers have told you, in an overwhelmingly majority, what afk-macro exploiting does to their profession and how it makes them feel. If you continue to use or create them, you are not a nice person.

One more analogy: A while ago it was possible to create an account, put down the max number of allowable harvesters, give a main character admin to them, delete the account and repeat. This practice hurt the economy, hurt players who were trying to find a spot to place theri own harvesters or houses, and hurt people who were trying to play a resource gathering role without exploiting. Customers patronized these people because their prices were cheaper and they always had a ton of resources available. However, just because people bought the resources didn't justify using the exploit. The customers who did so knowingly were also at fault, but the main fault lay with the exploter him/herself.

If you are exploiting an afk-macro then the fault lies with you, no matter how many people come and watch you.

Message Edited by Vorpaks on 07-07-2004 07:03 AM



Paks
Master Ranger/Master Creature Handler
-I support ATK play

CatFleaX
Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:50 am
#29


Well, considering I go past all of the entertainers who need xp before i start my macro, as alot of entertainers who need xp are in the front room anyways i dont steal alot of peoples xp. There is really nothing you or alot of other ents can do about it so you will just have to deal with it.


People are buffbots, its their choice what they do with their $15 a month/their computer(s)/their characters, not yours. If you dont like it, its something you are going to have to put up with. I have said it before and i will say it again, i am offering a service to the public which they like. If they dont like it, they dont need to use me, if there is an overwhelming amount of combat/"1337" people that dont like me being a buffbot then i will consider stopping being a buffbot, until thenI will be a buffbot and there isn't really that much you can do about it
Xyrdre
Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:21 am
#30






CatFleaX wrote:


Well, considering I go past all of the entertainers who need xp before i start my macro, as alot of entertainers who need xp are in the front room anyways i dont steal alot of peoples xp. There is really nothing you or alot of other ents can do about it so you will just have to deal with it.


People are buffbots, its their choice what they do with their $15 a month/their computer(s)/their characters, not yours. If you dont like it, its something you are going to have to put up with. I have said it before and i will say it again, i am offering a service to the public which they like. If they dont like it, they dont need to use me, if there is an overwhelming amount of combat/"1337" people that dont like me being a buffbot then i will consider stopping being a buffbot, until thenI will be a buffbot and there isn't really that much you can do about it







This, in my mind, equates to griefing. Thank you for making your position as a buffbot operator clear.







Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...
Ramona_Garcia
Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:24 am
#31

We can always hope they will install a little bit of code, like /setperform requiring a code to be typed in, and replacing group buffs with mutiple targetted buffs. Would get rid of all the bots.



Ramona Garcia
Dancer
Neutron Pixies



A couple of stories
ArgentWulf
Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:38 am
#32



Thank you Deila, Iagree. The attitude here is clearly "as long as its good for me the heck with who or what it hurts". An attitude which unfortunately is manifest in todays society.

Message Edited by ArgentWulf on 07-07-2004 10:57 AM



Leivi Esava
Galaxy Girl for May 2005
Life is a journey, not a destination, enjoy the ride! A special friend makes it even more fun.
Cillus
Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:38 am
#33


Hello, Cat, so you decided to come see what I was talking about? You made some valid points but you cannot apply them to yourself:


"And I agree with hothype on his post that it aint the buff bots which make the ent profs boring"

If the profession is so boring to you then why do you do it? And don't say it's to provide a service to other players, do you honestly expect us to believe you pay your subscription fees just so you can help other people? If that were the case then you would be paying attention to what is being stated in this thread and help the entertainment community by NOT being a Buffbot. You do it simply to make money. If you took the time to have a look around the Dancer, Musician and Entertainer forums you would see that there is a good many people that enjoy their profession choices and that people like you are souring that choice for them.


"Well, considering I go past all of the entertainers who need xp before i start my macro"

Well actually that's entirely untrue and you know it. You set yourself up at the top of the steps, this is not past all of the entertainers that need XP. This is in a prime position to capture people from whichever entrance they come in.

There really is no point trying to make you see reason, as has already been pointed out:

"The sad thing is when people who honestly believe they are nice people come in and try to defend their use of exploits. The Entertainers have told you, in an overwhelmingly majority, what afk-macro exploiting does to their profession and how it makes them feel. If you continue to use or create them, you are not a nice person."


When you were working your way up musician and dancer you used to joke about the AFK zombies. Then a few weeks after you became master I asked you if you were a Buffbot which you strongly denied. After overwhelming examples of being one I put it to you again and receive the same attitude as you have displayed here: "you will just have to deal with it". Seems to me the denial was due to guilt? So again, do not try to justify yourself with the "providing a service" line, that's what the real entertainers do, you are simply leeching for your own benefits.


Does my post look like a flame? Well I suppose perhaps it does, but then if you come to the dancers forum with the views and demeanour you have displayed here then you should expect a bad reaction. Have a look around some of the other threads here, then go read the musician and dancer threads too, see how many agree with your ideology of "I'll do as I like, screw you all" .
Enjoy your play style, I'm very glad everyone does not feel the same as you, if they did then the game would not be a nice place. You have made it quite clear what kind of player you are in this thread.

[[Linvuiet Arassa[[

Master Dancer

What's a Holocron?

Message Edited by Cillus on 07-07-2004 01:40 PM



Wong Fei-Hung


God sold me bad acid.
Still playing since beta.
I am Inferno's property.


This is my signature.
There are many like it but this one is mine
WWFSMD?
kirah_ashlin
Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:22 am
#34






Kirah, I dont mind if I loose customers as I get more and more new ones every day. Im too am not a dedicated buff bot, I go out and kill some things to get rifle xp every once in a while and I turn off computer of a night time. I dont just sit there staring at characters thinking of what I can pretend to do with them because that is just sick. For 1, i am a male ent and 2, I have a girlfriend so Idont even want tothink about what i can pretend to do to fake computer game characters and whoever would do that have no life.






Cat, I think you need to go back and re-read my post. That is totally the opposite of what I said. I gues that is to be expected though since that's the onlyway you could make a defense against it. . . . . . /sigh
PoetDancer
Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:42 am
#35


Does it affect our gameplay? It doesn't have to. I have been making a decent living in the cantinas even with buffbots around. I do admit I do not log on as much as I used to. But I am but one dancer on one server. It takes many to service a galaxy. And I cannot speak for the dancers here, but rest assured dears that the ones who used to like to play this thing are leaving the professions and leaving the game. That is not speculation, that's a fact. On Bria, the largest server, I can only count about 25 individuals who actively play these professions. Only 25. And I'm not even saying that its for the best or not that this is happening, only that it is occurring now as we speak. Why do they leave? They simply don't know how to have fun anymore in these professions. I think many of you who buff unattended also do not know how to have fun anymore. And that is why those of you who even enjoy this profession in the slightest, yet see nothing wrong with unattended buffing to consider the probibility that even you too will become marginalized if you do not make some effort to give the patrons more than BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs, and that means being at the keys putting some effort into amusing the patrons. And it doesn't even have to be about sexual things, CatFleaX. There are a thousand ways one can entertain at the keyboard.


And its why I stress to the ones who make an effort to play this profession to concentrate on what the bot cannot do in order to compete with them: attentive, spontaneous, immersive, witty, and creative play. No dears, its not about nine self-repeating songs and about the same number of dances. Because there are hundreds of emotes, plenty of mechanical tools such as /changedance, and plenty of dialouge types and techniques. In fact, the techniques of what we do are so rich that even after playing the greater part of a year, I have not mastered the application of them all. Don't get me wrong, its HARD work. But if you do it right, you'll get comments like the one I had last nite, "Wow! This was the absolute BEST roleplay experience I had for months! It was like a real cantina in there." And no, CatFleaX, I did not engage in cybering. I facilitated the immersion of a table full of Imperials into the game world by talking about intergalactic politics. After all, we brunettes have been known to talk about important things on occasion.


But buffbots do not give anything else but the game mechanics. That's why the customers come to them. And indeed, it is your choice to give them these things and nothing more, just as much as it is the patron that may choose to receive them and nothing more. But to all of those who are alts, as well as those who unattend regularly, enjoy these times while they last. Because right now, you are realatively rare and for all intents and purposes, optional. Its your time now, CatFleaX. You are doing something relatively novel when compared to the other entertainers in the game. But don't try and dress it up for anything other than it is: an uninspiring and utterly bland piece of code that allows you to influence the game world while not being a part of it. And yes, its true that you provide something that people have the choice to use. And I hope for your sake customers will still have the ability to choose between a hologrinder, a career entertainer, and a career buffbot. But as I argue in my post, oncea buffbot'srole in the healing cycle becomes less a matter of convinience and more a matter of need, you will start to feel the latent animosity that right now is not all that apparent to you.


Right now, thereis still a sea of hologrinders and aspirants in the major cities. Flash forward, however, and you will find that holosea gone, the aspirants with master titles, and the rare, few of us who still play this thing live. You may have people who actually enjoy sitting at the keys now and then, like CatFleaX. You may also have many, MANY second account buffers who make no bones about the fact that they never intend to play the character at all.


And for awhile, you will also have a legion of patrons who run to the buffbot, let the buffbot do its work, press alt-tab to check the forums, tip, and leave. They will do this day in and day out. But each and every time they use a buffbot, they become less and less convinced that you do a service that is worthwhile, and more and more convinced that their gameplay experience would be a whole lot better if they just didn't have to worry about entertainment services at all.


Why is that? Because everybody else in this game besides unattended buffers have toput forth some effortinthe game world to advance and succeed. Crafters must buy power and pay maitenance, combatants must take missions, and scouts must gather hides. Andwhen players live in a galaxy where most of their entertainment services come fromvaccant, unattended entities, each and everyonewillinvariably say to themselves,"why should we even tip or somehow be grateful to these unattended characters that do nothing but set a repeating macro, yet feel entitledto our respect and credits simply to give us some service that SOE feels we need?" Indeed, how will you respond, CatFleaX, when they argue this to you? Will you use your same old line of "I provide a service, and its up to you to use it or not" along side of all the other lot mules, guild alts, and second accessory accounts? That won't cut it anymore.


Because your customers at this point will not be asking for entertainment to be enhanced for your sake, and many live entertainers who would benefit will have long since cancelled our accounts. They will be asking SOE to eliminate these professions entirely, and give actual players such as doctors or chefs the opportunity to provide the same services. And its not going to hurt you when they put forth the convincing case that they should eliminate these professions, it will hurt players like me, who have tried to play these professions the way that SOE originally intended them to be played. Because there is something inherently problematic in the notion that a player need only spend the effort each morning to press F1, and dispense their mechanics for an entire day for players they do not see, for reasons other than enjoying the things it does, without the least amount of effort to sustain it, perpetually, and without any sort of "endgame goal" for it to be anything other than it is: a 24/7 dispenser of mechanics.


And if it ever gets to that point where the entire business of entertainment is to get mechanics from a vaccant entity, then the patrons will have every leg to stand on when requesting these professions be removed. Becauseentertainment at this point become a farce of what a playable profession should be, an embarassment for the development staff, a nuciance for the patrons, and more of a headache to actually play than to let the system play for the entertainer. And even though I enjoy and am good at entertaining, I am but one voice. For every one of me, there are ten of you who do not give SOE any reasons to keep and sustain these professions. In short, players like you who abandon play for the sake of dispensing the mechanics do not give SOE any incentive to keep and develop these professions. You only give SOE, the patrons, and the development staff reasons to think it was a mistake to include them at all. And that is what will ultimately will affect me.


Because I can deal with you buffbots in the game world by concentrating on the things you can't do. What I cannot deal with is when the very underpinnings of this entertainment concept in the game are neither practiced, nor adhered to in a manner that makes sense by themajority of the entertainment characters. Because my lone voice will carry no weight if SOE gives out the question to the playerbase of, "We are thinking of eliminating these professions from the game due to the fact that most of youfind no reasonto actively play it." Because by the example of you, many other buffbots, and the customers who are trying to figure out how service from a vaccant entity somehow enhances their gameplay, my lone voice will not in and of itself convince SOE to keep them.





Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Vorpaks
Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:42 am
#36

lol, thanks Xyrde, but its easy to win an argument when the other person makes your point for you. I actually feel sorry for Cat. He illustrates PoetDancer's point perfectly. For example, at first he said:

...and now I am pretty much SAS's mind buffer because I have earned their respect because I offer them a service...

Thus proving that part of the reason for playing this game is to gain respect and accolades from your fellow players. He assumes that his guildmates respect him because of the "service" he provides. And maybe they do. For now. However in a later post he states:

...if there is an overwhelming amount of combat/"1337" people that dont like me being a buffbot then i will consider stopping being a buffbot...

In this post he himself shows that he believes the opinion of the majority of combat/1337 are more important and more valid than the opinion of the majority of Entertainers. If HE has this opinion why does he think his guild is any different? If he has no respect for the opinions and feeling of entertainers why does he think his guild will maintain the respect they have for him? They won't.

I can outline the process of how respect will turn to disrepect and even dislike... and eventually lead to combat/1337 professions wanting these skills to be inherent to themselves or given to doctors because the whole buffbot system is basically pointless... but I believe PoetDancer covered all that perfectly.

The sad thing for us is that Cat said one very true thing: we have to deal.

We know that the devs do not consider afk-macro exploiting acceptable. I have not been on this forum long enough to know for sure, but I suspect the reason we don't have a pop-up window similar to the resource sampling window is because we told them we would hate it so much. And I totally agree that a pop-up window would not work for us. I DO believe that as soon as the developers work through their current schedule that the afk macro issues will be addressed. But until that time, and it will be a loooooong time, we will have to deal. Thakfully as Entertainers we are allowed some artistic temperment, so we can "deal" as loudly and in as many bright colors as we want.



Paks
Master Ranger/Master Creature Handler
-I support ATK play

Ltimmy
Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:34 am
#37


Wow! After having read this thread... I never realized what a negative effect "buffbots" had on gameplay for others. I don't have any alts, but had been thinking about doing it for a mind "buffbot". Not now. I for one will no longer be using the "serivces" of these exploiters. Thankyou for opening my eyes to this!


Aveu, Kettemoor


Master ranger/soon to be master Rifleman.
Schardour
Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:41 am
#38

/hug Aveu


I know I'm a guy, and you probably are too, but I have to do it


Thank you for reading and understanding our position!




T
IL KISMETA

lTlSlCl
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable,
but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
XzXzXzXzX
Also...Tayel [PLD]

Esharra
Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:43 am
#39

Thank you for posting in support of live entertainers, Aveu. I haven't the words to express how meaningful it is to us to get positive feedback for our professions.



Esharra ěsh-äŕ-rä, noun
1. Entertainer
2. Bounty Hunter
3. Smuggler

"One man's oddity is another man's routine." -Bertos Goodner (a dancer)


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