Dancer Archive
Thread: Tweaks that could possibly help revive the profession.
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PoetDancer
Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:14 pm
#27
This is a good thread. I think that many of our problems stem from the complex and vague "tap dance" patron and performer have to do to give and receive a buff. It makes buffing so subject to error and stressful that it is hard to see the value in anything other than "getting it right." Buffbots get it right simply because they cut through the complexity in a way we can't. No need to placate the party on the performance end, because they aren't there. No need to accept responsibility for a buff gone wrong, because there is no player behind the buffbot to blame. No need to haggle over what a "/" command is worth. No need to hear a response to "can u buff me?" As Panthu has stated, we cannot buff without the complex and methodical steps necessary to achieve the buff. And there is a whole other level of complexity on top of what we normally do that is frankly not very fun...for either party.
Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. In order to buff, these things have got to happen:
The Buff (Purple is /join system, yellow is /setperform system)
1) The dancer must be dancing.
2) the patron must then start /watching.
3a) The patron must /join.
3b) The performer must /setperform.
4) The patron must keep /watching for aX amount of time to receiveY level buff forZ duration.
5)What determines X amount of time? A number of variables that have, quite frankly, never been explained fully. They include the following:
a) The level of the dancer. (Let's call this L)
b)The level of the dance (still subject to debate, but we'll call this D)
c)The total time spent /watching. (Let's call this T)
d) The amount of flourishing. (Let's call this N)
e) The ingestion of buff time reducing foods. (Let's call this F)
So XL + XD + XT + XN + XF = Ystrength for Z time
6) The performer and patron must also be free of what we call "wonks." Known wonks include the following:
a) Not /watching before a /setperform is given.
b) /stopwatching when a dancer has stopped.
c) listening to and/or receiving a music buff at the same time.
d) combat.
e) running out of range.
f) Getting buffed for the second time while dying (has rumored to have been corrected).
g) running out of energy causing a /stopdance, and while waiting to stim, the patron leaves.
e) The performer or patron receiving a medical buff at the same time (just a theory).
f) hight amounts of battle fatiuge upon /join or /setperform. (again, a rumor).
7) The patron must /stopwatch.
8) If all these steps are done IN ORDER with all the attendent requirements, the patron then receives the buff as calculated from the factors in #5 above, and is stuck for the duration however potent and/or durable it may be. If any part of the sequence was not done,then the patron receives NO BUFF and must start again from step 1.
Now if the above procedure gives you a headache to read, it just proves my point. Buffing today is a needlessly complex and cumbersome procedure that requires many steps to "get it right." Frankly, calculations and procedures are best suited to mechanized scripts over active and creative play. No wonder a lot of live performers hate buffing, or see it as something different than entertaining. We are forced to be mathematicians instead of performers, and are judged on our mathematics skills, and not on our performance skills.
The current buffing system plays right into the buffbot's game. Since it depends onmathematical calculationand the ability to coach through a cumbersome procedure, buffbots are uniquely qualified to do this because of their mechanical, predictable, and frankly boring programming. This puts live players whoare trying to do something novel and interesting at a disadvantage. Because I would imagine that a patron is not in a very good state of mind to appreciate the things that are going on in the cantina when they are simply looking for a "/" command,wondering what it will take to get one, and hoping it doesn't get screwed up. Likewise, live performers are reluctant to do the kind of things that it will take to reassure that "/" commands are available and won't get screwed up. Its hard to really justify doing this gig if our best and most valuable statistical contributions are a matter of mathematical rote. And its hard to really find the joy in the cantinas when all of our discourse is limited to "Buffing here for +25%," or "/startwatching now" or "two minutes left," or "/stopwatching now," or "It didn't take? You weren't /watching when I told you to."
Now the problem I see in Reachwind's scheme is this. It is in my interest to give my /setperform to as many players as possible. If that's how I serve the playerbase, that's what I'll do. The problem is why would players want my /setperform? Not a /setperform. MY /setperform. I see no reason why I shouldn't give it away. But what if they don't want it because I don't have the +125% buff of the dancer next to me? That's a problem with a totally active system. Because "/" commands are free, but not all "/" commands are marketable.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-28-2004 05:38 PM
FlawedDiamond
Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:20 pm
#28
In its original form.. Dancing and Cantinas were someplace people went AFTER combat.
They'd come to heal their BF, relax a little, compare notes, trade war stories, ask for advice and generally decompress after some combat missions.. We as Dancers and Musicians would entertian them and help them relax and create a social atmosphere.
Once buffs came the dynamic changed drastically. We became someplace people went BEFORE combat, to get their BF down for doctor buffs and to get mind buffs. In That environment the cantinas were no longer social gathering places. And to a large extent THAT'S how we are seen today... as simply something one Uses before combat to buff ones stats. All the rest of our ability is secondary to that in most peoples eyes.
Thats why many of us feel that the Buffing system is what changed Dancing so dramarically.
New costumes, new dances are not going to change that. If every buffbot in the Universe was banned tomorrow it wouldnt change that.. We'd Still be seen by most people as simply a source of Pre-combat buffs.
That's the problem we face today and its not one thats going to be easily solved simply by the elimination of buffbots or afk dancers.
Naaxin
Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:58 pm
#29
The main improvement needed in the entertainer profession is improving the entertainers. This does not mean giving them "More Power grunt grunt", it means entertainers need to start policing themselves.
Buffbots-Those who go online and keep running a buff macro while AFK, who even include instructions on how to use them. Players can even get a buff without tipping because the entertainer is not there to deny service when she gets stiffed. Live entertainers are in an outrage over buffbots taking business away by providing free services. There have even been rumors of entertainers putting bounty hunter contracts on buffbots.
AFK-Those entertainers who are always AFK, though not buffing. They get really annoying when they heavily spam a cantina so that conversation between live players is nearly impossible. They do not necessarily take business, but can be nuisances.
Snobs-these are the entertainers who are live in the cantina, but refuse to honor any customer requests or answer questions. They take it for granted that anyone who walks in a cantina owes them a tip merely for being there.
The complaints from customers are about all of the above problems. I have found that players generally (90%) prefer to spend the money for a live entertainer who is courteous. When live entertainers will not respond to the customer query "Who is buffing?", they are handing business to buffbots. When entertainers do thank clients for tips, they show a lack of professional courtesy. A convenience store clerk making minimum wage will say "Thank you", but some entertainers will not. Many customers take this lack of appreciation as incentive to forgo tipping. Healers are getting their XP by healing entertainer action, but they are still providing a valuable service and should be treated with the professional courtesy of a simple thank you.
I am a master dancer who has an exclusive clientele. This is not that I will perform only for certain customers, but many customers will only come to me or a very small handful of other entertainers. This is due to despisement of buffbots and hatred of snobs. Because of unacceptable behavior from entertainers, I have met many people who will use drugs for mind buffs, and heal battle fatigue with AFK's and not tip. The philosophy I hear from so many is that AFK's (including buffbots) don't deserve a tip if they can't actually show up. I have even made money buffing an entertaining standing right next to a "free" buffbot. I do entertain my customers with both performance and conversation, which is how I unintentionally built an exclusive clientele, and I have recieved a great many 10K tips even without buffing. A few of my exclusive customers have even been as generous as 50K (and once 100K) and have also given me some very nice gifts, such as parts for my loot kit, masterwork clothes, jewels, vehicles, and more.I try to thank the healers who are helping me by keeping my action high, and occassionally this small show of gratitude has resulted in the healer tipping me as well.
The bottom line is that other than entertainer terminals, whichstink on ice, the changes that are actually needed do need to come from the players, not the developers. And I beg the great SWG dev's in the sky-do something about ent missions. 150 credits to travel 3000 m to dance for 30 minutes in an empty town, only to find the cantina is private so you can't get in and complete the mission, is ridiculous. Been there, done that.
Panthu
Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:23 pm
#30
Naaxin wrote:
...
Uh, we don't have player bounties and Buffbots don't usually go overt. 
... and, again, this is a game mechanic, a lot like Ent Missions are a game mechanic. Please don't tell other posters not to try to get Dev attention on it or discuss its need. 
If you choose to stay Player Governed, then you don't have to worry about this at all.
The answer will never be "let the players make their own rules" when the question is on a game mechanic. Then it would be a "player mechanic." 
Doriana
Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:33 pm
#31
Maryja wrote:
- This would dramatically increase demand, while at the same time the end of hologrinding and changes to recursive macros might very well decrease supply. It worries me that a straight one for one system might be a little too extreme. I think it might greatly inconvienence the player base that is need of our services. Maybe if the amount of people you could effect simultaniously increased with you skill level it would help balance it out.
(Maryja -- this is not really directed at you, I'm just using that as a springboard for my thoughts. Hope you don't mind.
)Lets not fool ourselves here. Until the macroing changes go in and/or AFKing is a thing of the past, it is possible to AFK your way through 2/3 of the exp needed for the new jedi system. Dancer + Doctor = skill set needed to accept the quests to unlock heightened senses trees + dancer to AFK all the exp to transfer to train the boxes.... Unless AFK goes away soon the hologrinding era cantinas are going to be heaven compared to when EVERYONE comes to the cantinas for the ONLY risk-free way to AFK FS exp. Do we have faith that a community of people who mastered THIRTY-TWO professions each won't take a month of their time to AFK their FS exp with dancer/doc? I sure don't. I think they'll come in droves when it's realized.
So, the end to hologrinding will potentially be the start of a whole new kind of torment for anyone who wanted to enjoy time in a cantina and we stand to have 2 - 3 times as many AFKers as before (at least). If entertaining isn't dead now it will be soon without attention, because of this.
Anyway...
I still support a partial movement of our skills to an active system... My ideal fix for the profession would be:
1) Removal of the ability and sanctioning of AFK AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
2) The "entertainer window" system previously described by Utess, that would make us have the ability to heal/buff passively at reduced levels and actively at full levels.
Unfortunately this would require the dreaded "UI development," but honestly... I really really want a UI for us that shows who's watching and for how long, etc. I think this would be a good compromise, still... we'd know who was watching, we could kick their healing into full active or leave it passive (but slower, yes), people who feel like we don't do anything as entertainers might be satisfied that when they ask for full healing we have to "do something," no one would get accidently overlooked for heals because they could still get passive heals, and I think it would strike a good enough balance between the differing playstyles that we could keep both our healing and buffing skills and still rebuild a base of respect.
I see the point that removal of buffs helping us.. and.. I don't know. We still had all these issues with AFK and respect before buffs.. wasn't that one of the things that buffs were supposed to take care of? Weren't they supposed to be our "ATK bonus?" I don't know that I have faith that removing our ability to buff wouldn't just make everything collapse completely now.
Either way, I sure haven't seen any of the promised changes yet.. is the "state where players actually play the game, not simply run virtual robots by means of macros" like the combat rebalance? /sigh I'm not sure how much faith I have in anything right now, though I'm trying to be happy.
Sunjammer
Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:54 pm
#32
FlawedDiamond wrote:There's only one thing that can save the Dance profession. Getting rid of Dancer buffs entirely.No.. not save it... but create a set of conditions that will allow its ressurection.
Not only that, but if you also get rid of doctor buffs as well, you'll go a long way toward balancing the game for the combat players. Getting rid of doctor and entertainer buffs would
- eliminate the spamming of special attacks,
- make PvE content challenging again,
- get rid of all the 80% composite armour, because encumbrance would mean something again,
- eliminate the dominance of the mind bar (and classes that target it) in PvP,
- eliminate one of the top 3 or 4 reasons why people object to the end of recursive macro—no buff = no buffbot.
It's not "combat revamp in a can," but it'd go a long way toward tiding combat over until they can work on the revamp, simultaneously knock out one of the causes of starport spam (doctor buffs), AND remove the #1 thorn in our side, all in one fell swoop. PvP wouldn't be affected, since your opponent won't be buffed either. Sounds like a win/win for everyone to me. Well, except for the kiddies who insist they should be able to solo krayts.
Somewhere here, or in the Entertainer or Musician forums, someone said they had taken on all the PvE content of the game, including the bunker and the corvette, without buffs. I wish I could find that post again. I'm planning to play a combat character as well as my entertainer, and I'd like to be able to say the same someday.
Although I haven't been able to post before today, I've been lurking on these forums for over a month. I know a lot of entertainers like giving buffs and wouldn't want to see them go (*waves to Drygo*). And not just because of their potential as a source of income once the bots are gone. For that matter, I'm still wrestling with the decision of whether or not to offer buffs once I reach Dancer, since I'm so adamant about not using them myself.
As for income, while I wasn't around yet to experience it firsthand, to hear people talk in these forums people actually tipped entertainers, back when they came in after the mission. Between the two weeks of my demo (when I was running around trying out everything), and last night's Starport Jam, I've probably put in about 20-25 hours of entertaining, and in that time I've gotten four tips (about 4500 total). I dunno how that compares to other entertainers, but compared to even half of that time spent shooting up Sevoort lairs, it sucks.
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Novice EVERYTHING (except medic) • Bria
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