Dancer Archive
Thread: Calling Dancers to an important task
Now why would I expect any better from someone not having any experience with entertainers other then a bot/zombie.And this is all exactly why I'd like to see our method of buffing changed. And, what I'd like to see in the process, personally, is something that can make my life as a dancer more fun, easier, and conducive to performances. And, if that means the combat players get to find the buffs easier, then I personally think that's a great thing.
PoetDancer wrote:
Funny Drygo, because I got such requests too. And they are silly requests. Because I cannot buff anyone. You cannot buff anyone. Because we can do nothing if the patron isn't willing to /watch. What they want is the /setperform or /invite, but it is still them who need to pay homage to a procedure in order to get what they want.
This is just something that we have to agree to disagree on.I feel that I can buff someone. I believe that the game mechanics make it so that nobody receives a buff unless I let them. And, semantics and game mechanics aside, that's really all that matters to me. I understand that technically I can't buff un unwilling party, like a doctor does. But, to me, I'm not really sure why it matters. Because, really, I'm looking at it from the point of view of control. And, I have control. If I don't want someone to get a buff, they don't. And, that's what matters to me personally.
The current system is not condusive to the sale of buffs. Because there is so much that can go wrong with the system due to the other party not doing their part. Those who sell buffs puttheir entire economic livelihood in a system like this basically pin their hopes on something going according to plan, when the dancer has absolutely no control over half the process.
Agreed.
That's no way to earn an income. Because what if a dancer spends 15 minutes buffing three players, and they all end up wonked? The buff process is not intuitive, and evidence of this is the amount of requests we get on the forums saying, "how do you buff?"
Agreed.
The fact that new playershave to ask how to buff is a clear indication that something is not working. Because a player should be able to understand how to play their profession with only the rulebook and holocron. Combatants do. Every time they get a new special ability, it is explained to them on the skill tree screen.
Agreed.
Tandava wrote:
We all play this game together and we all play this game because there are other people playing this game to interact with. Otherwise we'd not be playing online games. All professions should support each other and all professions should seek out others to help them with their needs because it is the human thing to do and more voices always help.
They are not ending macros for us, we were not a determining factor to do so, we were a "contributing" factor to do so. We contributed the cry with a whole bunch of others. If some of ushere hang SO much on waiting to see what happens when recursive macros go away then you arewaiting and respecting a true cross-profession platform and supportive attempt to do so. Why then would people be insulted to even have to consider helping someone with their problem or seeking help with their profession to promote the game and gameplay as a whole?
If dancers did not socialize or deal with people I could see the piss off attitude for them (my words) but I cannot see how helping other people and by extension selling an idea that might appeal to a broad base of people for the good of many professions, including our own,can be anything but supportive of game play, our profession and other people's professions.
I do not understand how coming up with different approaches regarding aspects of the profession and how it is consumed by other players in the game became associated with prostituting yourself to others needs. We are a service profession, we provide, we socialize, we enjoy, they should gain, they should find utility, they should enjoy. That seems to me how the profession was envisioned. There are a TON of problems from vision to fun gameplay now. Discussing live interactive buffing ideas that do not impact socializing and dancing seems revolutionary to me and seems an interesting discussion that might be an answer to that vision.
Doing it in a way that others add their voices to ours and so can help us get heard seems just good political sense and healthy for the profession interaction.
Ok heres the thing, i am fine with the way we function as a service profession. We have two forms of functioning that way and i like them alot, though buffing does need some tweaking to make it more foolproof. i'd just like a fair shake at providing them for a change. I don't think we need to be adding major aditional content to entertainer and taking up development time to enhance something that works as it is and that i think would become something that both sides could deal with with a few minor tweaks.
We don't get much development time as it is and theres no better way to serve the rest of the community than for entertainer to become more entertaining. By fixing our dances, adding some tools that alow us to put on a better performance, alowing us to have fun while still being there to meet the healing need. In doing these things more people would be atracted to entertainer this is the solution as i see it..
Do not meet the need for more entertainers by circumventing us, meet the need for more entertainers by making entertaining fun and a highly valued aspect of the community. By empowering us in this way the whole community benefits including us.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 10-02-2004 04:04 PM
Oqua wrote:
Drygo wrote:
Learned a lesson?
Explain this lesson to me Drygo...please. I would really love to learn it.
I know you are really trying to help the community, you really are....and more then not its the way things are being said that is really rubbing me the wrong way...but I am not understanding what you are trying to say.
It seems you are saying that bascially its our fault that buffbots came into existance and I take umbrage with that point.
Nope. Not at all. Please don't assume something that I didn't say. I think buffbots came into existence because a lot of people wanted everything on demand, and had no consideration for the professions that they were destroying. And, yes, I used the term "learned a lesson" and I put it in quotes. The lesson is not that we caused buffbots. But, that the player community will do what they have to to get what they want. It's not *our* fault. It's theirs. But, that doesn't take away the fact that if mind buffs were readily available it would have nevergotten to the state that it is right now. It's a cause/effect relationship, yes. I'm not going to pretend that it isn't. It *obviously* was. BUT, that doesn't mean that we should be blamed for our plight. Does that make any sense?
I am sure many of us havealts that are used to come and do a task for us (when we can't find someone else to do so). Buffbots are there because a few greedy people wanted to get their fifteen dollars worth (i.e.I have this extra account..might as well make it work for me while I am playing elsewhere or gone for the day) and they abused the macro system in place to do this. How is that a lesson I should learn? How is that because I am not available buffbots are there? I don't see that as the same thing...and I don't see how anyone could see that as us saying the same thing either. (before anyone says I am twisting words or saying things that haven't been said, please read the afk sticky thread...I am only stating what has been said here before numerous times).
I can see that people wanted to get as much use as possible from their extra alt $15 month. I will concede that it is another reason that buffbots came into existence. I also agree that it is an abuse of the macro system. But, I don't for one second believe that it is the *only* reason. If I'm going to be honest, I am going to admit that a good portion of the reason people created buffbots was because mind buffs were so difficult to find. You may not agree with it, but I stand by that belief.
You say their justifications are "truths"? Possibly so..but that can be said for EVERY SINGLE COMMODITY that is offered in the SWG. Here is a "truth" for you....more people are probably sidelined (i.e. their day/evening plans interrupted) by not finding another type of commodity then a buff/bf heal. Why is it that everyone offering these "compromises" seems to be ignoring that fact? Ya'll just keep pounding away with "I will have more free time to do what I want"..."people will have buffs/heals more readily available"....yet say it has nothing to do with convenience, bolstering the idea that "live" entertainers aren't needed, etc.?
I'm not ignoring that fact. I have said that many times myself. Sometimes you gotta look around for other goods and services that you want. You should also have to do that with buffs and healing from time to time. However, that doesn't take away from the reality of the situation, which is that, out of all the goods and services I want (except for high end loot, like AV-21's), they are all more available and easily accessible than the mind buff. At least, that appears to be the case to me. Perhaps your experience is different.
And, I'll be honest with you, I'm not sure how much it matters. I don'tunderstand why you appear to be so adverse to trying to come up with a system that makes mind buffs more available. I don't necessarily think that mind buffs should be available on demand for everyone at every time of the day. I do believe that people should have to seek out services and be interdependent with one another. However, is it really a crime to try to make buffs more available? Is it completely out of the far reaches of imagination to think that there might *possibly* be some ways and ideas out there that make buffs just a *little* more available? Ways that might actually benefit us and the entire community? What would honestly be so wrong with that?
I'm not sure what else I can say to satisfy you in regards to your question. Yes, I admit every commodity must be sought out. Yes, I admit mind buffs should be sought out as well. But, again, what's the harm in trying to come up with ways to make them, maybe, 25% more available?
Now before I hear anyone say "oh Oqua, you just don't want to help....oh Oqua you just don't want new content...oh Oqua you just are against change...oh Oqua you don't want our profession to be fun....oh Oqua you are full of resentment and anger...oh Oqua you aren't reading correctly...oh Oqua you aren't trying to see....(did I leave any out
Please remember that I desperately want our profession to be better. I want to improve many things in the entertainer classes. I think there have been great suggestions lately in a couple of threads (one was the prop line...I loved that suggestion).Also, I do want to help people... very much so in fact. Being on the other end of "not being able to find something, thus I can't fight" quite frequently throughout the last year, I do understand this plight.
What I want though is to keep the integrity of our class while still making it viable in the SWG community.
As do I. I think perhaps, though, our definitions of integrity are different. For you, and correct me if I'm wrong, it appears that integrity means that buffs and heals must always be 100% live, no ifs, ands, or buts. It just happens to be that for me, I don't feel at all that the integrity of my profession would be ruined if buffs weren't always 100% live and in person. In fact, of the many ideas I've read and liked, in my opinion, the integrity of my profession would be strengthened. It's just a different idea of what constitutes keeping dancer integrity in tact, I think.
I still have yet to see a response that answers a question I have asked repeatedly. Instead of anyone trying to answer, I get attacked and labeled with all the above laments.
I want to know why is it that "we" (I say we as a community en masse) can't buff for a bit then it be okay for us to say "sorry, I am done for the day..have other things to do". I want to know why we have to look for a million and one ways to make ourselves more "available" with some form of "cutting out the interaction" of an entertainer (yes, I know we would be making the vids, but come on you know what I am talking about).
It is *absolutely* okay for us to buff for a bit and then say we have other things to do. Absolutely. And, I suppose we don't *have* to look for ways to make ourselves more available. However, simply put, I *want* to. I'm not sure how else to say it. I want to be more available to people. I want to have ways to make my services more available to people, thus freeing up my time. I want to have other mind buffers services more available to me. That's just what I want. And, you just seem to be saying that that is not a valid want. Why not?
As for cutting out the interaction of an entertainer. It doesn't have to be. It's just an option. It's an option that I personally wouldn't mind. It's an option that a lot of other entertainers *do* mind. And, that's exactly why I had started that other thread. Because, I don't particularly understand why.
If this were a popular vote on the matter, I know that I would most assuredly lose. And, I'm certainly okay with that. I think we should probably go with what the majority of entertainers want in order to preserve their idea of maintaining the integrity of our profession. Besides, it's not that I *have* to have holovids. Not even close. It's just an option that I like a lot. And, if 99% of us think, no way, no how, it's always gotta be live, then that's fine. I don't agree, but I'm not going force this down anyone's throats.
There are other ideas I've heard and liked. Whoever came up with this, forgive me for not remembering. But, someone, awhile back came up with the idea of buff "charges." That is, as we danced, we "saved up" charges. And, when somebody wanted a buff, they would merely come to us, ask, and at the push of a button, voila! They were buffed. That's another idea that I really liked because it was conducive to us not interrupting our performance. It made it easier for us. It was all 100% live. Dreamland, suggested stacking /setperforms, and making a set five minute watch for a buff to apply. That's another idea I liked, also all 100% live. And, again, I see nothing personally wrong with being able to do things like this. I don't feel it ruins our integrity. And, yes, I don't think holovids, or the holo broadcast would ruin our integrity either.
I have to shuttle all over the place checking out empty vendor after, empty vendor...I have to shuttle from town to town looking for doc buffs...I have to check repeatedly for an ID'er...I have had to hustle sending mail over and over trying to find a DE lately....Even with getting referrals from friends of people who do good work, I still have tomove my bootayall over the place to get what I want. Am I complaining? Nope. I expect this, with no anger or resentment to those who offer the services I need.
Why am I to expect differently "just" because I am an entertainer?
You're not. I think that's what you're not understanding from my posts. Yes, we *can* keep things exactly as is. If that happens, then fine. But, what *is* wrong with trying to make things more available, not only for the combat player, but for *us* as well?
***side note*** Um, I know this is probably a dumb question, but I do hope these "compromises" are being proposed for after removal of bots/zombies? I say this because if an above post in this thread, a "reason" for advocating the vids/holo stuffies would be an alternative to using a bot. Bots/zombies should be the main thing we are pushing to get rid of first and foremost as a big boost/change for the good for our profession (at least in my eyes).
I agree.
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-02-2004 09:41 AM
Eaca wrote:
Like the entertainers irl, I think we should be available thru multiple forms of media. Holovids of some sort would be a great idea if they could come out with a way so it couldn't be macro'd. I liked junea's idea for the droid with a holo-recorder in it, let us /setperf thier droid and "charge" it with a buff or heal to be used at a later time. I'd like for us to be the pop stars of the SWG universe that our titles make it sound like we should be.
I want people to want to check out my latest vid or my latest broadcast. I want to be a celebrity with my name spoken on Lok while I am performing on Naboo. That idea is absolutely thrilling to a little fame 'ho such as myself. 
Oqua wrote:
Above anything else I think we should ask two questions of any suggestions that come forth as "improvements":
Do they help aspiring entertainers or hurt/hamper them?
Do they enforce the opinions that buffbots/zombies have made rampant through the community in so much as saying our commodity is something that should be there with when I want, where I want, no matter the situation, time, or place.
Absolutely. And, that's why it's more important to me that we try to come up with ideas and discuss them rather than argue at cross purposes. People don't like the vids, I get that. But, instead of trying to further develop the idea, most people simply say "no." Hmm, why not instead talk about...ok, let's just do vids for buffing and not for healing? Buffing is mostly done by the masters who don't need experience. Healing, on the other hand, must be preserved live in order to let the up and comers advance. Makes sense to me. But, more often than not, it doesn't get beyond the "no, I don't like it because it makes people not have to go to Cantinas, and people *must* go to the Cantinas all the time!"
And also, we should absolutely never be made to be "on demand" at the snap of someone else's fingers, nor should that attitude be reinforced. But, *if* the devs instituted something that did make us available 23/7, would I have a problem with it? No, as long as it preserved the integrity of atk players.
Another big point would be healing xp...because of this "compromise in availability", healing xp would be received, but at a diminished rate. I ask why do I have to be "punished" for making myself more available to the customer? He said they would get a diminished buff/slower heal and we in turn would get a diminished return in healing xp....both parties would get penalized (this way the devs might be more ready to implement it..its not just the combatants getting penalized). I don't agree with this at all, nor do I think it "right". I mean, we are not only making it easier for others (yes?) but we are still not reaping the full benefits? I know this xp wouldn't be going to a bot anymore...but still....
I agree with you here. I personally don't think that healing should be given to vids or broadcasts. But, I'm willing to "entertain" some ideas that people might have even though I don't think that healing is that much of a big deal. I don't at all believe that anyone at any time can't find a novice entertainer to heal them. And, as you say, I think it's extremely important, given that healing experience is so hard to come by right now, that we not take any of that away from the up and coming entertainers. But, again, in a good healthy discussion of options, perhaps someone would be able to come up with a way that would allow the live up and comers to not lose any healing. I can't think of a way right now, but maybe someone else can.
Now, Eaca's proposal seems to be much more palatableto me then the vid/disc thing...but what I want is for our profession to be respected just like the others (not that we should "be" like them...but why not get/implement tools that would garner the respect that they seem to get without too much tweaking).Fantastic ideas have beentossed around, without too muchgetting done.I mean we both spend skill points on an elite profession now don't we? All I wish is for that to mean something...and not just to fellow entertainers.
Agreed.
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-02-2004 11:49 AM
Eaca wrote:
As to the comment saying what about the 80 ents in that video, my comment was on the number of MASTERS that still played live on most servers, yes there may be a few hundred entertainers on at any one time, and yes many may be live, but most of them are still grinding thier way up, and I've never seen a video that had 80 people doing exotic4 or playing virtuoso...
Message Edited by Dreamland on 10-02-2004 07:38 PM