Dancer Archive
Thread: Calling Dancers to an important task
Tandava
Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:01 am
#14
That's fair Oqua, lets both step back. I don't think either of us are intentionally trying to get each other's goat. And we are doing so because we are both obviously passionate about our love for dancers and our belief that they should get as much time and respect as possible.
We are not effectively communicating our passionate intentions to each other and so in frustration it feeds to resentment.
Step back is good for both of us for awhile and we can let the rest of the dancers breathe. 
Know that I do not mean to twist your words and I don't think you mean to twist mine and that is happening on both sides. Nor do I mean to disrespect you. I also can't respect you will not see my way, I'm just trying to convince you of that too hard. Its part of that crusader/conversion side of me.
The reason I stress this proposal and not all the things mentioned, the lets fix buffs, registration etc is not because I don't think they are more important or valid. I've wanted tons of things fixed. And I will support those things getting fixed.
The reason I push the proposal OVER the other wonderful ideas at this time,is because it has something in in none of the others do. We can use broad based support to push it if we can sell it and its fun and adds to the game for everyone. The Developers look at all the things we want fixed and ignore them because only we want them and only we care about that. That doesn't mean they are any less worthy, we're just getting the shaft on them.
I like this proposal because by using broad based support as a tool and platform we increase our visibility far beyond our actual numbers in the community and elevate all our concerns to the Dev's. So it is a backdoor approach to me and another way to try something which adds a lot of content but fun stuff.
However if it dies, it dies, I still support the community and the same things you do.
We do differ in this though. If the demand stays the same when bots goawayI don't think we can meet it without entetainers forming a whole bunch of our own resentments. I think even if their expectations come down it will be more likely to make the socialization and relationships worse but who is to say either way.
Ikewe
Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:59 am
#15
If the demand stays the same when bots goawayI don't think we can meet it without entetainers forming a whole bunch of our own resentments.
I think this is the heart of it for me. I just don't see this as the case and I struggle to see how people do. I've asked repeatedly what these mysterious "off peak" hours are andwhat is preventing entertainers from being there during those magical times? Simple question and yet I get no answer. Before the robot vending machines began dispensing buffs around the clock I could go to any Outpost cantina and provide healing and buffing. Today I can go to any Outpost cantina that has had a vending machine for more than one day and I will be lucky to get 2 requests in an hour. I became an entertainer because I wanted to heal mind wounds (and eventually provide mind buffs). I saw this as the role I could fill in the community. Yes I also enjoy talking to people and hearing of their adventures but that's not why I became a dancer. If vending machines were removed I would once again be able to fill that role as would the hundreds of other entertainers across the Galaxies. Now perhaps that's not why any of them became entertainers. Maybe the majority of dancers and musicians really don't want to heal and buff. If that's the case then perhaps your statement is true. But that's not what I hear when I talk with them. People act like removing vending machine buffers will some how reveal that there are only a tiny handful of dancers and musicians who are only available for an hour or two out of the day. Perhaps part of that reason is that many of us have a second job that we spend a lot of time doing now because our first job has been demeaned to the point of being absurd. Just because you don't see me in a cantina doesn't mean I am notnearby and could not be inside that cantina before you could shout "r u buffing?" When I run through a town like Theed or Coronet I see quitea few people with entertainer tags up. We just aren't as rare a profession as some people seem to be thinking. Though I can tell you that we risk becoming one the longer that vending machines continue to be able to provide the same healing and buffing services that we can. That is the main reason I must see whatever plan they have in mind for the recursive macro implemented before I can say "why you are right. we do need to be able to provide our healing services through some mechanism other than face to face." Otherwise all I am doing is adding to the coding requests for our profession and we have already been told that's not a high priority.. heck some days it feels like it doesn't even rate as a low priority.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Ingrata
Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:58 pm
#16
I have to agree with Vorpaks... I am shy to reply on serious threads on any forum boards.
I have ended more than one post with the **please don't flame me, I am not trying to be offensive** and you guys have spared me
At this point I am not ready to compromise. I don't see any other profession being asked to find a way to devalue their work, which, in my opinion, is what being able to master while being AFK does to entertainer. We don't get the respect we desearve. I manually clicked every single flourish on my way to Master Dancer.
I think they should remove the recursive macros and then take it from there. Give us a chance to show the rest of the players that we are out there, and they can find us in the exact same place they find the AFK entertainers.
People always say they can't find a buff.. I actually have a friend who says that constantly... but he never asks me... odd since I'm a Master Dancer and he knows that.
He says there are never any entertainers on... but he can't stoop so low as to go look in a cantina. Basically, in his eyes, if you aren't walking up to him at the exact moment he needs healed or buffed, then he can't find you. So the only way to 'wed' myself to this particular player is to follow him around asking him every few minutes if he'd like me to heal his mind wounds or give him a buff.
As for being alienated from the combat classes, I am a combat class. My husband's characters are combat. My friends characters are combat classes. I fight next to them. I need to be healed as much as they do, and we go to the cantina and get healed... I always put out a big effort to go find an entertainer who needs xp to heal my hunting party, and I haven't had a problem finding one.There have been times when we've been at remote bases where no other entertainers , and I'd /shout on my way to the cantina to let the masses know I'd be there, and then had to abandon my hunting party to continue healing. Then, I was respected and admired for going the extra mile to help everyone out...now I am just a person that people don't even feel the need to talk to, they just send me a group invite.
I may have wandered a little off topic, and I appologize.
**feel free to flame** I'm a big girl, and I can take it
I'm a big girl, and I can take it
Dreamland
Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:20 am
#17
There have been many good ideas, many top 10 issues lists, many questions to the devs lists. They have all met with being ignored. And they all came from the "so called creative people" as you call them. You can only put forth so much energy. Eventualy you reach a point where you realise that there is no point in saying something thats being ignored. That is where alot of people are at this point.
The only way things will improve at this point is if the developers decide to revitalize the profession, and no amount of examining ourselves or improving our performances is going to work, so long as we are crippled by afk play and buffbots. There is a wealth of information on stuff like this in threads like sultrinas dance school for example,or the small novels worth of information Sirii has posted about her techniques.
Why do i have to find a way to integrate myself into the community so as to better serve it? seriously? I am not the developer. It is their responsibility to make it work, all our best ideas have been put forth time and time again so i seriously believe they know our side of the story at this point. It's just a matter of them actualy getting it in gear and getting something done about it.
I just want to be able to log on and play a fun and imersive game as an entertainerand feel as if i have someplace in the grandscheme of things. I want to be treated like a human being that plays the game and contributes, that can never happen as long as one single buffbot macro is capable of completely replacing the need for every other entertianer in the game.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 10-02-2004 01:20 AM
Drygo
Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:37 am
#18
Ikewe wrote:
If the demand stays the same when bots goawayI don't think we can meet it without entetainers forming a whole bunch of our own resentments.
I think this is the heart of it for me. I just don't see this as the case and I struggle to see how people do. I've asked
*edited for brevity, not because it's not important.
Having been around before buffbots, I'm one of those people who *does* see us as being unable to meet the demands of the playerbase. Not that we necessarily should *have* to. But, regardless, we didn't then, and I'm not sure how we will be able to now.
I remember before buffbots, and there are two big things that makes me think that what Tandava says is true. First, the constant, *constant* bombardment of /tells asking for mind buffs whenever I entered a major city or a minor city. I would literally spend hours upon hours buffing, because there was nobody else around who was willing and able to do so because other people got tired of buffing. And, then there would be my turn, where *I* would very often drop my title so people would just stop asking me for buffs! LOL It was insane how in demand I was, and it became irritating. And, then that irritation often turned into a nice unhealthy mix of guilt and resentment. Because, if I were to leave my master dancer title up, which I am very proud to do as it is my main #1 profession of choice, I had no end to the madness of people wanting buffs. And, I'd provide them many times, and I'd see that there was nobody else around doing it...all this during peak times. And, there were other master titles there, but they'd drop title or pretend to be afk. I've been dancing in groups where dancers knew someone wanted a buff but didn't want to bother giving one because they were too busy "socializing."
I know a lot of this directly goes against the idea that there are many people who want to buff. I do believe there are. It's quite possible that there may be more now. It's quite possible that the dancer community has "learned a lesson" in some respects that if they don't make themselves available, then other players will do things like create buffbots. I know my words here may seem a little harsh. Please don't take them as flaming the dancer community. Just take them for what they are...my own personal experience of how it was before buffbots took over. What some people say is *true.* I remember it to be true. I am also a combat player...and this is my second reason for believing what Tandava says. Me...a dancer, would have to look for mind buffs because I couldn't buff myself. And, you know what 19 times out of 20, I could *never* find one. I'm serious. I would look and look, I would travel to the two biggest cities, I'd try finding one from the little Cantina on the mining outpost or wherever I happened to be going. I couldn't find one.
Again, maybe things have changed now. Maybe there are more entertainers who are willing and able to provide mind buffs. Maybe in the future we won't get tired of providing buffs because there will be so many of us who want to that we give each other breaks. I don't know.
All I know is this, if things are exactly the same as they were prior to buffbots...we *won't* be able to keep up with demand and people, including myself are going to be extremely frustrated. I will be frustrated because a) I won't be able to do keep up with demand, and will have to constantly turn people down in order to do something besides buff and b) when I want a buff, I won't be able to find one.
Now, maybe others have had other experiences than I did. Again, please remember this is not to be a flame, but just an account of my personal experience. I readily admit that some of the arguments that non-entertainers use to justify buffbots...while *not* a justification, are, nonetheless, truths. And, that's exactly why I *wish* we could come together and try to find ways to make buffs more available...that, of course, *include* the live entertainer as the dispenser of those buffs...but at the same time help *us* to make *our* lives more enjoyable, with extra content and extra free time, and less feelings of frustration...and yes, help the combat player as well. I don't see why there is *anything* at all wrong with doing so. And, while I agree there is no reason whatsoever that we need to bend over backwards for *anyone*, I don't agree with the notion that coming up with ideas to make *everyone* happier and giving *us* more content, is remotely related to "bending over backwards." I find it incredibly frustrating that so many people have recently taken that attitude.
PoetDancer
Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:13 am
#19
Funny Drygo, because I got such requests too. And they are silly requests. Because I cannot buff anyone. You cannot buff anyone. Because we can do nothing if the patron isn't willing to /watch. What they want is the /setperform or /invite, but it is still them who need to pay homage to a procedure in order to get what they want.
The current system is not condusive to the sale of buffs. Because there is so much that can go wrong with the system due to the other party not doing their part. Those who sell buffs puttheir entire economic livelihood in a system like this basically pin their hopes on something going according to plan, when the dancer has absolutely no control over half the process.
That's no way to earn an income. Because what if a dancer spends 15 minutes buffing three players, and they all end up wonked? The buff process is not intuitive, and evidence of this is the amount of requests we get on the forums saying, "how do you buff?"
The fact that new playershave to ask how to buff is a clear indication that something is not working. Because a player should be able to understand how to play their profession with only the rulebook and holocron. Combatants do. Every time they get a new special ability, it is explained to them on the skill tree screen.
LyteFoot
Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:37 am
#20
Players put up with a lack of doctors now why should they expect entertainer buffs to always be available? I don't understand why entertainers should be expected to be any different than anyone else.
Oqua
Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:33 am
#21
Drygo wrote:
It's quite possible that the dancer community has "learned a lesson" in some respects that if they don't make themselves available, then other players will do things like create buffbots.
Again, maybe things have changed now. Maybe there are more entertainers who are willing and able to provide mind buffs. Maybe in the future we won't get tired of providing buffs because there will be so many of us who want to that we give each other breaks. I don't know.
All I know is this, if things are exactly the same as they were prior to buffbots...we *won't* be able to keep up with demand and people, including myself are going to be extremely frustrated. I will be frustrated because a) I won't be able to do keep up with demand, and will have to constantly turn people down in order to do something besides buff and b) when I want a buff, I won't be able to find one.
I readily admit that some of the arguments that non-entertainers use to justify buffbots...while *not* a justification, are, nonetheless, truths. And, that's exactly why I *wish* we could come together and try to find ways to make buffs more available...that, of course, *include* the live entertainer as the dispenser of those buffs...but at the same time help *us* to make *our* lives more enjoyable, with extra content and extra free time, and less feelings of frustration...and yes, help the combat player as well. I don't see why there is *anything* at all wrong with doing so. And, while I agree there is no reason whatsoever that we need to bend over backwards for *anyone*, I don't agree with the notion that coming up with ideas to make *everyone* happier and giving *us* more content, is remotely related to "bending over backwards." I find it incredibly frustrating that so many people have recently taken that attitude.
Learned a lesson?
Explain this lesson to me Drygo...please. I would really love to learn it.
I know you are really trying to help the community, you really are....and more then not its the way things are being said that is really rubbing me the wrong way...but I am not understanding what you are trying to say.
It seems you are saying that bascially its our fault that buffbots came into existance and I take umbrage with that point.
I am sure many of us havealts that are used to come and do a task for us (when we can't find someone else to do so). Buffbots are there because a few greedy people wanted to get their fifteen dollars worth (i.e.I have this extra account..might as well make it work for me while I am playing elsewhere or gone for the day) and they abused the macro system in place to do this. How is that a lesson I should learn? How is that because I am not available buffbots are there? I don't see that as the same thing...and I don't see how anyone could see that as us saying the same thing either. (before anyone says I am twisting words or saying things that haven't been said, please read the afk sticky thread...I am only stating what has been said here before numerous times).
You say their justifications are "truths"? Possibly so..but that can be said for EVERY SINGLE COMMODITY that is offered in the SWG. Here is a "truth" for you....more people are probably sidelined (i.e. their day/evening plans interrupted) by not finding another type of commodity then a buff/bf heal. Why is it that everyone offering these "compromises" seems to be ignoring that fact? Ya'll just keep pounding away with "I will have more free time to do what I want"..."people will have buffs/heals more readily available"....yet say it has nothing to do with convenience, bolstering the idea that "live" entertainers aren't needed, etc.?
Now before I hear anyone say "oh Oqua, you just don't want to help....oh Oqua you just don't want new content...oh Oqua you just are against change...oh Oqua you don't want our profession to be fun....oh Oqua you are full of resentment and anger...oh Oqua you aren't reading correctly...oh Oqua you aren't trying to see....(did I leave any out 
)....
Please remember that I desperately want our profession to be better. I want to improve many things in the entertainer classes. I think there have been great suggestions lately in a couple of threads (one was the prop line...I loved that suggestion).Also, I do want to help people... very much so in fact. Being on the other end of "not being able to find something, thus I can't fight" quite frequently throughout the last year, I do understand this plight.
What I want though is to keep the integrity of our class while still making it viable in the SWG community.
I still have yet to see a response that answers a question I have asked repeatedly. Instead of anyone trying to answer, I get attacked and labeled with all the above laments.
I want to know why is it that "we" (I say we as a community en masse) can't buff for a bit then it be okay for us to say "sorry, I am done for the day..have other things to do". I want to know why we have to look for a million and one ways to make ourselves more "available" with some form of "cutting out the interaction" of an entertainer (yes, I know we would be making the vids, but come on you know what I am talking about).
I have to shuttle all over the place checking out empty vendor after, empty vendor...I have to shuttle from town to town looking for doc buffs...I have to check repeatedly for an ID'er...I have had to hustle sending mail over and over trying to find a DE lately....Even with getting referrals from friends of people who do good work, I still have tomove my bootayall over the place to get what I want. Am I complaining? Nope. I expect this, with no anger or resentment to those who offer the services I need.
Why am I to expect differently "just" because I am an entertainer?
***side note*** Um, I know this is probably a dumb question, but I do hope these "compromises" are being proposed for after removal of bots/zombies? I say this because if an above post in this thread, a "reason" for advocating the vids/holo stuffies would be an alternative to using a bot. Bots/zombies should be the main thing we are pushing to get rid of first and foremost as a big boost/change for the good for our profession (at least in my eyes).
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-02-2004 09:41 AM
Eaca
Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:05 am
#22
I had a rather long talk with oqua the other day, in the end we both agreed to disagree. The heart of our disagreement is our difference in precieved availability of our services. As she has stated above, and what I have gathered from speaking to her, isshe is of the firm belief that our services should be a rare commodity, such as doctors and slicers. It is her opinion that if we do something to make OUR live services more available then we also should demand that other professions be made more widely available, such as doctors and smugglers. This is her opinion and a valid one, I respect her for standing up for what she believes is right...
My opinion is somewhat different however, as is yours I am sure.
I am of the opinion that our services shouldn't be compared to the services offered by any other class. Right now there are two levels of availability for goods and services. Common items include vendored items and right now, entertainer healing and buffs via afk grinders and buff bots, and rare commodities such as doctor buffs, live entertainer buffs and heals, and slicing services. I call my solution a compromise because it would make a medium level of availability for our services, with vendors remaining common, entertainers being medium level of availability, and docs/slicing remaining rarer. As to the question of why our services shouldn't be as rare as doctors and slicers, I ask why should it be. I don't think any one class should be compared to any other class on the assumption that the two classes should be the same. Lets face it wound healing for action and health are by no means hard tocome by, I'd guess about half the population has medic worked into thier template some how, and on top of that TK's can even heal mind wounds. I guess my reasoning is why SHOULD we be as rare as docs and smugglers? Like the entertainers irl, I think we should be available thru multiple forms of media. Holovids of some sort would be a great idea if they could come out with a way so it couldn't be macro'd. I liked junea's idea for the droid with a holo-recorder in it, let us /setperf thier droid and "charge" it with a buff or heal to be used at a later time. I'd like for us to be the pop stars of the SWG universe that our titles make it sound like we should be. I think there are enough time gates in this game for the combat professions, and I don't feel we should be another one. The l33t d00ds already have thier ent slave bot sitting on another account, even if macro changes go thru it still won't hurt them much, the people it will hurt will be the normal, more casual gamers that don't have access to an alt or a friends alt.
That's my opinion, lets hear some more.
Oqua
Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:47 am
#23
Again,
If you can do any of the proposals without it adversely affecting the entertainer community, then I am all for it...as are most I can safely say by what is said on the forums and in game.
Anything that might possibly add fuel to the fire that entertainers aren't a valid class in game as other professions (pretty much anything that has a commodity to offer, doctors and slicers only some examples) or that we aren't to be allotted the same courtesies as other viable professions I am a bit skeptical about.
Above anything else I think we should ask two questions of any suggestions that come forth as "improvements":
Do they help aspiring entertainers or hurt/hamper them?
Do they enforce the opinions that buffbots/zombies have made rampant through the community in so much as saying our commodity is something that should be there with when I want, where I want, no matter the situation, time, or place.
Yes, Eaca and I did speak in depth the other night...and we pretty much have the same end goals and love for the entertainer classes....
but we differ onsome big points.
To illustrate, Eaca brought up the scenario of how inconvenient it is to shuttle around at times looking for buffs/healing.....I simply ask the question "why should it be any different for entertainers" and again...I don't think I have gotten a response to that other then "its what everyone is used to now because of bots, and we don't want to upset anyone more then they already will be because bots are gone". Why is it so acceptable for us? I guess that comes to the crux of my questions.
Another big point would be healing xp...because of this "compromise in availability", healing xp would be received, but at a diminished rate. I ask why do I have to be "punished" for making myself more available to the customer? He said they would get a diminished buff/slower heal and we in turn would get a diminished return in healing xp....both parties would get penalized (this way the devs might be more ready to implement it..its not just the combatants getting penalized). I don't agree with this at all, nor do I think it "right". I mean, we are not only making it easier for others (yes?) but we are still not reaping the full benefits? I know this xp wouldn't be going to a bot anymore...but still....
My last point has to do with something you said in your post...that the L337 d00ds already have their personal healers and what not...how does your proposaleffect this situation? I guess I don't see the point in mentioning that fact. With that still there, people who don't have access would still have to search for an entertainer, the healing xp/buff business would still come to us (or we be hired to go to them). They would just have to finally play the game the way the devs initially intended it to be played, you actually go and seek out people that have something you want/need in game.
Now, Eaca's proposal seems to be much more palatableto me then the vid/disc thing...but what I want is for our profession to be respected just like the others (not that we should "be" like them...but why not get/implement tools that would garner the respect that they seem to get without too much tweaking).Fantastic ideas have beentossed around, without too muchgetting done.I mean we both spend skill points on an elite profession now don't we? All I wish is for that to mean something...and not just to fellow entertainers.
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-02-2004 11:49 AM
Dreamland
Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:54 am
#24
Eaca wrote:
I had a rather long talk with oqua the other day, in the end we both agreed to disagree. The heart of our disagreement is our difference in precieved availability of our services. As she has stated above, and what I have gathered from speaking to her, is she is of the firm belief that our services should be a rare commodity, such as doctors and slicers. It is her opinion that if we do something to make OUR live services more available then we also should demand that other professions be made more widely available, such as doctors and smugglers. This is her opinion and a valid one, I respect her for standing up for what she believes is right...
No you see shes using a comparison there to illustrate to you how foolish it is to expect to have unristricted 24 hour a day access to another professions game content to suit your needs. Your not seing the comparison though. Noone realy BELIEVES that we should have a 24 hour a day alternative to doctors, or armorsmiths because it would destroy their game, yes just as its destroyed ours.
My opinion is somewhat different however, as is yours I am sure.
I am of the opinion that our services shouldn't be compared to the services offered by any other class. Right now there are two levels of availability for goods and services. Common items include vendored items and right now, entertainer healing and buffs via afk grinders and buff bots, and rare commodities such as doctor buffs, live entertainer buffs and heals, and slicing services. I call my solution a compromise because it would make a medium level of availability for our services, with vendors remaining common, entertainers being medium level of availability, and docs/slicing remaining rarer. As to the question of why our services shouldn't be as rare as doctors and slicers, I ask why should it be. I don't think any one class should be compared to any other class on the assumption that the two classes should be the same. Lets face it wound healing for action and health are by no means hard to come by, I'd guess about half the population has medic worked into thier template some how, and on top of that TK's can even heal mind wounds. I guess my reasoning is why SHOULD we be as rare as docs and smugglers?
Because were offering something as powerful as a mind buff, that ability has to be in check with the availability of any other buff. In this game if something is realy easy to get it has no value, and the people providing it will be taken for granted just as we are now. I believe all buffs should be eliminated truth be told, but if they have to be in the game they should be a perk, that little extra to give you an edge not god mode, and not something that peeople see as their god given right to have free or super easy acess to.
As to healing, if thats to be improved why not follow SOE's example on other things they have improved. For example shuttle waits. Just tweak battle fatigue accumulation so that its just a little bit slower to accumulate, and increase the ammount of xp given by it to offset the reduction in healing. It's something simple and straightforward and it would adress the concerns of those that feel battle fatigue is a big deal.
Like the entertainers irl, I think we should be available thru multiple forms of media. Holovids of some sort would be a great idea if they could come out with a way so it couldn't be macro'd. I liked junea's idea for the droid with a holo-recorder in it, let us /setperf thier droid and "charge" it with a buff or heal to be used at a later time. I'd like for us to be the pop stars of the SWG universe that our titles make it sound like we should be. I think there are enough time gates in this game for the combat professions, and I don't feel we should be another one. The l33t d00ds already have thier ent slave bot sitting on another account, even if macro changes go thru it still won't hurt them much, the people it will hurt will be the normal, more casual gamers that don't have access to an alt or a friends alt.
It's great that you have this vision of improving buffing, but I find it nedlessly complex, and as everyone knows we havent got jack for new content since the addition of buffs in the first place. What makes you think that while there going through the process of removing recuring macros, that they are going to take the time to suddenly code in something as complex as the holovid or remote show idea? If anything they will be looking at a fast fix, thats where my idea above fits in and thats what i think we should be looking for in regard to healing.
When and IF we finaly get some new content, I don't want it to be spent on making us better equiped to serve others, i want it to be spent on making things more fun for us, that includes fixing our dances, and all the other great ideas out there in the stickies that would make it more fun to be an entertainer, not ones that would make it more convenient for everyone else to use us.
Keep the "compromises" for healing in off hours simple, thats my opinion. So we can get to some content for US not for everyone else.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 10-02-2004 11:55 AM
Eaca
Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:51 pm
#25
Alright, I'm gonna stop pulling my punches here and tell you all how I really feel.
Oqua, Dreamland, I wish that things could be as you want them to be, in all honesty thats what I want too, but our dream and reality are not compatible. We've all said it dozens of times before, devs care little about our small comunity of live entertainers here. Lets face it for every live entertainer that quits a buff bot and 3 combatants take thier place. The devs are NOT going to allocate development time for our profession because WE ask them to. The ONLY way we can get ANYTHING done in our profession is to get the backing of not only dancers and musicians, but also pistoleers, carbineers, rifleman, BH's, TK's, fencers, swordsman, pikeman and pretty much the rest of the SWG community. You don't want our place in the SWG universe lessened by making us more available and convineint? Neither do I but lets face it, we CAN'T be lessened much more than we are now. ANY respect is more than what we currently have.
Do you honestly believe we can get the rest of the SWG community to go along with the plan to take us from a commonplace easily used and abused commodity to something more rare than RIS? I mean honestly, how many LIVE entertainers are left on your server? Maybe 15-20 regulars, with another 30 TOPS that are casual gamers? And there's a LOT more dancers than musicians by a long shot from what I've seen, by a 3-4:1 ratio. Lets face it, these days there's more bots online at any one given time than live masters.
SOE isn't in this business to make a social statment or to make sure you or I have fun, they're in this business to make themselves and thier stockholders money. Thats all this big social experiment is, a way to take $15 for each account we have from our pockets each month and put it in the SOE coffer. To do what most of this community and myself personally would want would result in FAR more canceled combattant accounts than would increase in entertainer accounts. To do what we ask is not financially prudent for them.
If you CANNOT compromise our availability then lets face it, you might as well quit. But we're already as compromised as we can get, I mean paying NPC's are doing our jobs far more effectively and reliably than we could ever dream to. To effectively cover all the area's buff bots do in the times they do we'd need probably 100x more entertainers than we currently have. Even with the removal of bots and a surge in the entertainer community due to increased revenue (lets face it, I don't think we'll instantly garner more respect with the removal of bots, if anything it will cause more resentment between us and them), after the initial boom we'll go thru another bust where all those not truely dedicated to the profession will quit it for something more profitable or fun for them. I don't honestly think we could ever approach the availability of doctors much less bots, and still maintain our normal play style(not that I think we should be as available as bots, and our normal play style being that of social groupings, unlike docs who tend to find an area of demand where they're the only supply).
Furthermore, do we REALLY want that kind of attention? Do you really want to log on and have the tells start before you finish loading to go to some remote area to buff/heal? Lets say all of a sudden we're now respected and in demand like doctors. Do you really want to get the constant tells for buffs and heals while you're trying to shop, or do a starport show with your friends, or decorate your house, or sort your wardrobe. Taking down your master tag won't do much to stop them anyway. If they see you dancing or playing a master level dance or song expect to be added to thier list of possible buffers or healers, if you're walking around in nice clothing instead of armor with no tag on but they read your bio and see master dancer as one of your badges, expect to be asked if you can still buff. It happens to doctors all the time, just ask them, and those that used to be doctors. Heck I have a friend that had long dropped doc and STILL gets random tells for buffs/heals/rez's from former clients.
To finish off, we need to find a solution thats pallatable to not only us, but to our clients as well. Yes I know we've been screwed by them for the last year and 3 months or so, but lets face it, NOTHING will be done without garnering support outside the entertainer community.
Dreamland
Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:39 pm
#26
Eaca wrote:
Alright, I'm gonna stop pulling my punches here and tell you all how I really feel.
Oqua, Dreamland, I wish that things could be as you want them to be, in all honesty thats what I want too, but our dream and reality are not compatible. We've all said it dozens of times before, devs care little about our small comunity of live entertainers here. Lets face it for every live entertainer that quits a buff bot and 3 combatants take thier place. The devs are NOT going to allocate development time for our profession because WE ask them to. The ONLY way we can get ANYTHING done in our profession is to get the backing of not only dancers and musicians, but also pistoleers, carbineers, rifleman, BH's, TK's, fencers, swordsman, pikeman and pretty much the rest of the SWG community. You don't want our place in the SWG universe lessened by making us more available and convineint? Neither do I but lets face it, we CAN'T be lessened much more than we are now. ANY respect is more than what we currently have.
Then there is something seriously wrong with the entertainer profession. If the only way we can get treated like a valid profession is by being whores to every profession in the game then we should be looking at chocking entertainer up as a failed experiment and moving on. Put simplyI don't come here to kiss other peoples backsides to try and get some support so maybe i might be able to be treated with a shred of dignity some day. If entertainer doesn't have enough steam to stand as a profession either fix it so it does or take it the hell out, period.
Do you honestly believe we can get the rest of the SWG community to go along with the plan to take us from a commonplace easily used and abused commodity to something more rare than RIS? I mean honestly, how many LIVE entertainers are left on your server? Maybe 15-20 regulars, with another 30 TOPS that are casual gamers? And there's a LOT more dancers than musicians by a long shot from what I've seen, by a 3-4:1 ratio. Lets face it, these days there's more bots online at any one given time than live masters.
Rarer than ris armor?, come off of it. Who are the 80 live entertainers in the CCX video, i sure as hell never saw 80 people in ris armor making a video.
SOE isn't in this business to make a social statment or to make sure you or I have fun, they're in this business to make themselves and thier stockholders money. Thats all this big social experiment is, a way to take $15 for each account we have from our pockets each month and put it in the SOE coffer. To do what most of this community and myself personally would want would result in FAR more canceled combattant accounts than would increase in entertainer accounts. To do what we ask is not financially prudent for them.
SOE damn well better be in the buisness of making sure i have fun because its in their interest thati do. I'm not going to wait around another year to see if they do something. Nor will most of my friends. Theres other games to play and you can be damn sure ill go play them before i give in to your asertation that i should get on my knees and open my mouth just so that entertainer can have a place in the community.
If SOE wants to make it so there were lots of entertianers, Its simple, make entertainer more fun to play and they will come. Make entertainer a valued member of the community and they will come. Make a way for entertainers to be unnecesary and they wil not, and as long as ANY solution is in place that makes us have no value to the game that cannot be gotten from other means then we are screwed, just like we are now.
If you CANNOT compromise our availability then lets face it, you might as well quit. But we're already as compromised as we can get, I mean paying NPC's are doing our jobs far more effectively and reliably than we could ever dream to. To effectively cover all the area's buff bots do in the times they do we'd need probably 100x more entertainers than we currently have. Even with the removal of bots and a surge in the entertainer community due to increased revenue (lets face it, I don't think we'll instantly garner more respect with the removal of bots, if anything it will cause more resentment between us and them), after the initial boom we'll go thru another bust where all those not truely dedicated to the profession will quit it for something more profitable or fun for them. I don't honestly think we could ever approach the availability of doctors much less bots, and still maintain our normal play style(not that I think we should be as available as bots, and our normal play style being that of social groupings, unlike docs who tend to find an area of demand where they're the only supply).
Furthermore, do we REALLY want that kind of attention? Do you really want to log on and have the tells start before you finish loading to go to some remote area to buff/heal? Lets say all of a sudden we're now respected and in demand like doctors. Do you really want to get the constant tells for buffs and heals while you're trying to shop, or do a starport show with your friends, or decorate your house, or sort your wardrobe. Taking down your master tag won't do much to stop them anyway. If they see you dancing or playing a master level dance or song expect to be added to thier list of possible buffers or healers, if you're walking around in nice clothing instead of armor with no tag on but they read your bio and see master dancer as one of your badges, expect to be asked if you can still buff. It happens to doctors all the time, just ask them, and those that used to be doctors. Heck I have a friend that had long dropped doc and STILL gets random tells for buffs/heals/rez's from former clients.
To finish off, we need to find a solution thats pallatable to not only us, but to our clients as well. Yes I know we've been screwed by them for the last year and 3 months or so, but lets face it, NOTHING will be done without garnering support outside the entertainer community.
You know what, the other comunities are out there trying to get their professions fixed as well, and most of them flat out do not give a flying f#$% about entertainers.They are just trying to get noticed from behind the shadow of the jedi profession like everyone else.
Entertainers do not need to be going to the other comunities to get them to aprove of us so we then have a right to exist, The Developers have to get off thier backsides and give entertainers the ability to stand alone and contribute to the comunity as a live player. Or they need to take them out and forget they ever thought up the concept of an entertainer to begin with. I am not content with being a groveling whore at the feet of the rest of the comunity begging to be allowed to play.
Do you see the absolute lunacy here? I have to work at it and try and better serve everyone else just so maybe they may like me and the devs may fix my profession. No thanks id rather take my 15 dollars and go play another game if thats the case, and i think that the other live entertainers will eventualy come to the same conclusion. I'm not the one being payed by SOE im paying themIf they do not provide a fun game for me to play i will leave and so will all the rest that feel that way, and entertainer will be a complete and unmitigated faliure.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 10-03-2004 03:20 PM