Dancer Archive
Thread: A Compromise of Sorts Updated 09-30-2004 06:57 PM
Oqua
Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:30 pm
#27
AnakinSWG wrote:
I should have refreshed before hitting Submit, because I SO totally copied Oqua's post
Simpatico!
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:54 pm
#28
To the person who said there's pleanty of live entertainers, we have 5-10 in Mos Eisley, how many of those 5-10 are masters? 1-2? How many more master level performers are in cantina's around the galaxy? 2-3 more total? So 3-5 TOTAL master level dancers on a server during a rush time is hardly what I consider a reasonable amount. Yes, yes, as I said before, believe me I KNOW the combat people did this to themselves, the constant wearing down of live entertainers, telling them that thier contribution to the game falls somewhere below kreetles. This gap of hatred I'd call it between us and them needs to be bridged, one side has to step up as the bigger (wo)man and say ok, enough, we need to find a solution we can both live with. The solution needs to reward live play, while still making our services available to them as they need it.
That said I do NOT like the idea of ANY pre-recording, as it eliminates the need for any real interaction between entertainer and customer, customer need only buy something I painstakingly "crafted" one at a time OR use a terminal to get a pre-recorded "show" at a cantina. Yes either way I get my money, but you lose the interaction there. Given the option between a live ent in the cantina or a recording in the back, I'm betting a lot of people would STILL go for the recording in the back just to avoid us. My solution lets them access ANY live entertainer at our most popular locations (may need to add Mos Eisley to the list) while still making local live entertainment a more attractive choise, they have two choices in my system, live remote entertainer, live local entertainer.
The biggest technical hurdle I see in my plan is streaming character data from one server to another, however since what the other end sees is only a small subset of total character attributes, I don't see this as too hard on the system. The other side won't care about my HAM or most normal things about my character, all they need to see is what I'm wearing, any flourishes I do, and anything I say or emote. For the musicians the remote user is going to have to suck up only being able to listen to thier part of the band. A method should probably be implimented to allow for both dance and music to be seen and heard simultantiously, as our musician friends already have a harder time of it than we do... which is another reason I think remote buffing should be allowed, since musician demand for buffs is much higher than dance. Lets face it given the option a VAST majority of the player base would rather watch us jiggle our virtual flesh in whatever interesting outfit we came up with than listen to a musician drone the same 10 songs over and over and over again (no hate for our musicans here, been one longer than I've been a dancer, but lets face it those tunes DO get old after a while).
While I would very much like to agree with everybody that says "F#ck it, when bots go away make them come to us or go without" this will NOT do much against the powergaming types that caused buff bots to appear in the first place, they'll just get a second account (or third or fourth...) and make it into a personal BF/buff bot slave ofthier very own. The people who will suffer are those who are either indifferent or even semi-sympathetic to our cause, the ones that would prefer to use live entertainment but sometimes just CAN'T late at night.
Another thing I would recommend is have each broadcast station also able to recieve as well, and give those of us who register an ability to see who else is registered and where. That way when it gets late at night and people start disappearing, instead of being bored and lonely by ourselves, we can find out where everybody else is and go join the party, so maybe the last 2-3 hours before reset only one place is manned in the galaxy. I honestly don't buy the argument that they should have to take repeated and multiple shuttle hops to find us, I mean lets face it each shuttle hop and empty cantina they find is just that much more annoyance they have built up against us, and is why the bots were made to begin with.
Give them a system to find us, and even recieve a reduced level of healing and buffing in remote areas, that way when they request us we can do something like this:
Me: /t them Hi, thanks for using EntNet, if you would like I'm currently preforming in Theed/Coronet/Bestine/Mos Eisley, if you came here I could heal you quite a bit faster and give you a 125% buff instead of a 75%
Them: /r hmm, ok, I'd like that extra 50% buff, I'll be there in 5-10 minutes
OR
Them: /r sorry, I only have 2 hours to play tonight and I really need to get this BF down before I do, I'll just watch you over the net, next time maybe.
We win, they win, everybody goes away happy in this situation, buffbots/afkers need not apply. In ANY pre-recorded situation you have the ability to semi-afk it. Current buff bot owners need only take thier bot to a recording studio, set them up in there, and play or dance for the 5-10 minutes it takes to record a session then repeat as they grind FS xp on thier main. Only way around that is make the studio give a set routine you have to do, in which case it stops them but annoys the heck out of us live entertainers too.
PoetDancer
Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:02 pm
#29
It is a creative solution, but I am hard pressed to understand the problem. If the situation is that dire that there cannot be an individual with entertainment skills on each of the ten worlds, then this solution will not in itself do the trick.
The problem we have now is a combination of several factors. I'll try and list as many as I can:
1) The "double blind" cantina wait. People go to the cantina to get entertainment services. But they do not stay in the cantina if there is no show in progress. Likewise, we go to the cantina to perform for an audience. But we do not stay in the cantina if there is no audience there. Neither party has any incentive to "tough it out" waiting for the other party to show. Its a waste of an audience's time to sit and simply hope someone will show. It is a waste of our time to perform on the off chance someone will come by, /watch us, and tip us. Hence, the buffbot: an entity that can wait perpetually do to the fact that nobody is behind it waiting.
2) Lack of alternatives to earn income. Crafters can create their own capital, ie, their own guns. Doctors too create their own capital, ie, their own enhancements. They also have other ways to earn a living, through the selling of goods and services. Our income is only in one form, player tips. Thus, it forces us into placing ourselves in situations where we are more likely to be tipped than not. And the more time we spend doing it, the greater the likelihood. This leads in to the first problem of the "double blind." And also, there is no guarantee we'll even get tipped at all. The time and resources a crafter uses to create a suit of armour creates a permanent object that will stay around indefinatelywaiting be bought. Our roledepends utterlyas how long we are logged on and performing. Hence, the buffbot becomes popular. An entity that performs perpetually, and is placed for reasons totally unrelated to increasing the likelihood of getting tipped.
3) Not all venues get entertainers. We were not able to staff every venue before player cities. This is a good thing, because it would normally give players an incentive to tip entertainers so they wouldn't have to leave a venue to seek tips elsewhere. But after player cities, we reached the breaking point. Too many guilds and players wanted "their city," they wanted their city to work as an NPC city, and found rather quickly that no entertainers would "tough it out" there. Yes, they want services. But the facts of player cities do not make them condusive to a vibrant cantina life. Little to no foot traffic made player cities prime candidates for buffbots, because since the economics could not attract entertainers with the "invisible hand," an "iron fist" of buying an unattended entertainer character became a viable option to those cities that wanted to replicate the NPC cities.
Every player who has played SWG had a choice as to what profession to choose. But these three factors make entertainer a profession that is subject to a lot of problematic concerns that other professions simply do not have to worry about. It takes a special kind of player to do these professions, and that player is rare.
But I do not think the developers ever intended for these classes to be popular. In fact, I believe that several things indicate that these professions were designed with the sole intention that they'd be rare. The fact that we can service an unlimited number of patrons is one aspect. The fact that we naturally gravitate toward venues with better tipping audiences is another. The fact that players can spend a long stretch of time before their battle fatiuge becomes a problem is another indication that entertainment was intended to be rare and uncommon. And the reason this class is broken is becausethere are so many demands for entertainers to be where individuals want them, but no real effort to get them there and keep them there. The tip system is broken only because players need not tip anyone for maintaining a presence in a cantina today.
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:14 pm
#30
The argument that there is enough entertainers to man at least one cantina on each world is a technically valid one, there is probably on average 20-30 live entertainers on any server at any one given time. The problem is we want to socialize, we don't want to go alone to some remote outpost on dantooine and wait for customers to come in, we want to find where all the other entertainers are and join the party. Lets say for instance we have 80 entertainers online. Chances are you're not gonna find 8 per planet. No, you're gonna find 15 in mos eisley 5 in bestine, 20 in one group in theed with a standby group of 5, 13 in coronet 4 in moenia, 6 dancing at the coronet space port and the other 12 shopping. Spreading out is the LAST thing we want to do, its not that we don't go to dath or endor to entertain because tips are bad, we don't go there cause its lonely and boring. I'm not proposing EVERY cantina have a reciever, just 3-4 broadcast centers with 3-4 remote centers and broadcast centers able to act as recievers if nobody is registered there (NOTE: Give novice entertainers ability to register for healing, novice dancers/musicians ability to register as buffing, add registration as part of the stalker droid quest). This makes us more, tho not too widely available, and lets us party with our friends instead of saying "yeah, I'm gonna go be bored on dath and see if I can make some tips..."
Nacoa
Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:25 pm
#31
Eaca wrote:The argument that there is enough entertainers to man at least one cantina on each world is a technically valid one, there is probably on average 20-30 live entertainers on any server at any one given time.
I don't think we should consider the current situation, remove buffbots and then try to fix the problems that will immediately pop up. We should be thinking much longer term that that. When buffbots are removed, there will be unanswered demand for entertainer buffs. That will make prices rise. That will make more people want to become entertainers, just like there's a lot of Docs today.
Immediately, there will be problems. But none of them can't fix themselves over time.
NewJedi
Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:28 pm
#32
Interesting ideas. For me, it's a bit hard to assess them without having played in the combat rebalance "sandbox." I'm an eternal optimist, and my hope is that the rebalance, together with the demise of bots, will reinvigorate our professions. If there is a greater need for our services, and if those services can't be AFK'd, then I'd be cautious about changing the venues at which we can heal wounds, heal fatigue, and buff.
That said, I've always wishes hotels and theaters had a bigger role in life, and cantinas a smaller one. How about building more hotels in remote locations? Inns and hotels should be in far off places, after all.
Sunjammer
Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:08 pm
#33
Tandava wrote:
If you remove buffs altogether you then remove even more reason to have someone contact entertainers and mess with the high end content they have been putting in place. (I wouldn't not have minded no buffs myself but by suggesting that you are negatively targetting doctors and chefs and that is a bad political move).
I agree that harming another prof to improve our own is bad, and not just politically. But I don't think my suggestion would harm them.
For doctors, there is more to being a doctor than buffs, or at least there used to be. In the buffs debates in the Core Systems forum, I've heard from doctors who support removing buffs because it would get them out in the field again. Not every doctor likes standing around being a living vending machine.
Others object to the loss of income, of course, but inflation is another buff-caused problem with SWG. That's not a reason to keep buffs in, anymore than the "leet doodz" objections of not being able to rake in millions solo krayts.
As for chefs, if you'd followed the link I posted, you'd know I'm specificially referring to doctor and entertainer buffs. Their absence would increase the demand for chefs.' products.
The "high-end content" might need some tweaking, but right now there are complaints that it's too easy. As I said in the post I linked to, getting rid of buffs wouldn't be an instant combat revamp, but it would go a long way toward blunting the big problems until the revamp is ready, while simultaneously getting rid of buffbots and reducing starport spam.
Read the link. See also here in the Core Systems forum and here in the Galactic Civil War forum.
You're right that it would remove one of the two reasons people come seeking entertainers, but again, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Buffs bring them to us before the mission, BF after. When they come before, they're impatient and resentful. They want to get on with whatever their mission is, and every moment of delay is irritating. When they come AFTER--well, some of them are still resentful, but some aren't. As a group, combat players are more tolerant of downtime after a mission than before; even if the "after" of one mission is the "before" of another, they're not thinking in those terms.
Especially when they only have to come every couple days instead of every couple hours, as they do with buffs.
If we make our wants everyone's wants, we might have a much better chance of getting somewhere.
This I totally agree with. And I think the buff suggestion could qualify. It has benefits across the professional spectrum, and it has people across the spectrum who recognize those benefits and are arguing for it. Combateers who see it as a way of improving PvE balance and opening PvP up to people who can't currently compete, crafters who can sell a wider variety of weapons, armour and foods, socializers and tactical players who see it as a way of encouraging more grouping, doctors who want to go on missions as the "team medic" instead of standing around a starport, rangers, squad leaders and scouts whose abilities would be in demand again....I could keep going, but follow the links instead. I've hijacked Eaca's thread enough.
If the Dev's WANT to do it then the coding becomes a non-issue.
And that's exactly the problem here. They don't. They are doing JTS, then the combat revamp, and then the GCW revamp. Anything else won't even be considered until after all that, which means the better part of a year. UNLESS it qualifies as a "mini-publish" --simple to code and easy to implement. Removing or reducing buffs qualifies. I don't think Eaca's idea does. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think I am.
I applaud Eaca for trying to find a compromise, and I wholeheartedly agree with you about enlisting other players as allies instead of fighting them. But any suggestion needs to take into account the difficulty of implementing it, or it will never happen.
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by the Star Wars Galaxies forums:
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-milbot, 09-09-2004 04:46 AM
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:00 pm
#34
I'm gonna let this thread go in the entertainer forums for a bit, then once we get a general idea if we want to push this to other sectors of the comunity, such as combat prof formus and galaxy forums... I'm don't have any grand notion that this would be a quick and easy thing, and I'm positive it would come at the very earliest after GCW revamp, however the more comunity sectors we can get onboard with us to fix us in a manner that both encourages ATK play and makes us still reasonably available to our customers I think we could get at least SOME action, so long as our requests remain reasonable and practical.
fett3041
Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:04 pm
#35
An interesting idea. I like the fact that it can't be recorded for later use, is a one time use, and the interraction it requires.
The only way I see this going live is after they implement a galaxy wide vendor search feature for items (search by item name, stat, min/max damage, resource name/category).
Also, I can't see it working as well as we would like until the bots are removed. A player too lazy/unwilling to interractto check the galaxy's Entertainer chat, is likely too lazy to check the holo terminal in the back of the cantina. I've met MANY players who just don't want to interract with others. Either from social anxiety (which I have, but still love to perform for a crowd. Go figure. lol), or just a general loathing of other players, I can see these folks crying NERF over the forced interraction.
I do agree though, that once the bots are removed, we'll see many more Ents. Not only those who left the profession because of the harrassment, but also new Ents coming in for the promise of becoming a 'star'. These new ents will either get real bored real quick and go on to something more in their style of gameplay, or really enjoy the profession and reinforce our numbers and presence in the galaxy.
Tandava
Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:44 am
#36
Thanks Panthu, I'd like to address or talk more about those people who don't like this angle.
First of all we shouldn't be treated like doctors, we are entertainers. We should not be compared to doctors, and we should not be on the same schedule with doctors. To think that we are specialist doctors denies the whole definition of dancer and entertainer, insults our social abilities in events, creativity and connections and voluntarily narrows our focus an enormous amount. We NEED to be different from doctors. They need to access us differently from doctors, pay for us differently from doctors and treat us differently from doctors. So all the buffers might want to stop pushing the doctor angle.
What this plan does is REWARD live at the keyboard entertainers. It also spread the name of live at the keyboard entertainers in a way that forcing people to a cantina does NOT do. What it does is spread an entertainers name through word of mouth and makes them more accessible to characters for healing such that they might form enough of a bond that promotes support for live entertainers.
It is also a way to get more at the keyboard entertainers interested in buffing the community which IS a problem.
While at the Coronet cantina on Bria with several live musicans and dancers the master refused to buff because they didn't want to bother with it. But this also gets around THAT issue because the entertainer does not have to disturb themselves or leave in order to enter the transaction and perfrom the service. Therefore it might encourage more at the keyboard live entertaines into buffing.
I do not come from a server with a lot of entertainers. And of those active an infintesimal amount of them buff. Really, an infestisimal number. And Drygo hasn't been around to get them all either nor Tiaga. People on Kettemoor are more likely to forget a mind buff, stock up on vasarian brandy and go out into the field thus denying ALL entertainer experience.
On Kettemoor most people know they can't get a mindbuff or use bots and would probably really appreciate this service.
Now...this is why I like the system a lot other than the more star warsy feel of it....Promotion
I spend most of my time advertising things in game. That's right, not dancing, chatting, roleplaying, exploring, anything, but advertising, interviewing, emails, contacts etc. Hours and hours in game and out. And that really makes a huge difference. You can get ANYTHING with an audience if you do it right and keep advertising. Entertainers need to self-promote and they need connections and this handy little transaction allows them that. And keeps allowing them that and gives them a conduit to be used to sell THEIR other products: party services, offers to come and buff hunting groups, other informational services etc.
This is possibly a more effective way to get rid or or start stripping down buffbots because it allows At the Keyboard entertainers to be EVERYWHERE and even buffbots can't do that. And it can also be used during negotiation to choose for the dancer or musician to say, you have a big group gathering? Why don't I come there or how about you all come here or we can work it through the net, here. Plenty of room for contact information.
I think this is a great self-promotion tool. I would at least enourage everyone to consider allowing buffing through this as a bargaining point. I would promote it also through ranger camps and droid components and private cantinas to have the possibility of entertainer contact modules to the registration system. All theaters, hotels, cantinas could allow registration.
This makes us handier than doctors, and buffbots, could involve Droid Engineers and Architects and Rangers and could be utilized by everyone for the benefit of dancers and musicians, keeps the economy flow up, opens up communication channels that were not there before and adds the possibility of fame, and a way to have people feel more connected to entertainers AND is sort of a star warsy method of doing it.
Sunjammer
Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:53 am
#37
I agree that this isn't likely to happen because it would be difficult to implement. You're talking about a whole new subsystem that would have to be coded and beta-tested. Don't get me wrong, if it did happen I wouldn't cry a river, and I'd use it (from both sides), but I just don't see it happening.
My own preferred solution remains the removal or sharp reduction of buffs, because it combines several benefits in one very easy-to-code change. In my (entirely unbuffed) SWG combat experience, battle fatigue is not something that needs attention on a daily basis. When I was doing a lot of fighting a few weeks ago, I went into a cantina maybe once every three days. It's buffs, not BF, that drives the combateers' demands for 23/7 entertainer availability.
(Before anyone says it, I know some people rack up 600-800 BF in a single game session. But that's because they're buffed.
)
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by Freefall:
"Have you been engineered with any safeguards against harming humans?"
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"Of course it's important. We're going shopping! I need to know if you can bite, gouge, and kick with the rest of us."
My own preferred solution remains the removal or sharp reduction of buffs, because it combines several benefits in one very easy-to-code change. In my (entirely unbuffed) SWG combat experience, battle fatigue is not something that needs attention on a daily basis. When I was doing a lot of fighting a few weeks ago, I went into a cantina maybe once every three days. It's buffs, not BF, that drives the combateers' demands for 23/7 entertainer availability.
(Before anyone says it, I know some people rack up 600-800 BF in a single game session. But that's because they're buffed.
)J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by Freefall:
"Have you been engineered with any safeguards against harming humans?"
"Is that important right now?"
"Of course it's important. We're going shopping! I need to know if you can bite, gouge, and kick with the rest of us."
LyteFoot
Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:59 am
#38
Although a neat concept I don't want it unless I can also go to a buff dispenser. Why not just put the blue frogs from TC at every starport?
The players have to realize that entertainers offer a service as valuable as a doctor. People go into med centers and cry for healing, that should be what happens when the mind is wounded, they shouldn't just be able to select someone and get a passive heal. As long as you make it easier to get mind healing than it is to get action and health healing we will be seen as a right not a priveledge. If those services are a right of paying to play this game then move the healing all to an NPC and just get it over with.
Thecombat players in SWG are spoiled, its too easy to get into god mode and solo everything. Things need to be seriously toned down not made easier. If you saw the bots go away you would see more people visiting every cantina. If you saw that then you would see players fill the missing roles of entertainer in those places. The shortage today is only because live entertainers aren't necessary thanks to bots. Remove the bots and entertainers will come back.
Juny
Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:24 am
#39
How about new module for droid for the problem?
- First, customer need to get a droid what have 'Recording Entertainment' module from local DE.
- Find a entertainer who can do buff and you need group up with him/herandyour droid.
- /consent him/her. Now, entertainer can access to the recording module. Select what slot to record, then push start recording likes playback module.
- Entertainer starting the buff session with normal buff manner. Droid will tell to entertainer when he finish the recording.
- When you need buff and wound/BF heal, call the droid and group up with him, then select play from the droid menu. Once play it, it should be gone the charge. This buff should be lower effect then live heal/buff.
Here is reason for the way...
-Live entertaineris neededto recordingfor this way. Becouse of it, pull more our demand I believe. Its tiresome, but you will get more tips becouse of the time andtwo session of buff at once (active to player,passive to droid).I think this is clear the interaction problem too.
-New business for droid engineer.
-Since customer need to play in camp if they need buff at outside, scout's camp will come more meaningful thing. Andthey thinkabout you with his R3.
-You can get semi-self buff from the droid.
-Buff droid VS buff bot, sounds fun?
This idea do not killing buff bot, butlive entertainer get more business,becouse can not charge buff with macro...
-Live entertaineris neededto recordingfor this way. Becouse of it, pull more our demand I believe. Its tiresome, but you will get more tips becouse of the time andtwo session of buff at once (active to player,passive to droid).I think this is clear the interaction problem too.
-New business for droid engineer.
-Since customer need to play in camp if they need buff at outside, scout's camp will come more meaningful thing. Andthey thinkabout you with his R3.
-You can get semi-self buff from the droid.
-Buff droid VS buff bot, sounds fun?
This idea do not killing buff bot, butlive entertainer get more business,becouse can not charge buff with macro...One of negative point here, what is the buff droind eat EH exp. So, just simply, change the EH exp rate...