Dancer Archive
Thread: Update: Latest Answer from TH
I think everyone is misreading TH's response.
The *real* message is this....
"Sorry, we are up to our eyeballs with JTL, the Jedi revamp and the combat balance revamp.We don't have enough staff as it stands to do these in properly. Everything else will be ignored for months while we finish these and then cope with the inevitable problems they will create. Anything else I say is just a rationalization to hopefully send you away for a few weeks. Chances are my rationalizations won't really make sense since I have to cover every topic on these boards and don't have anyone to help me because they are all tied up with the new work."
I'm not really trying to be sarcastic here, but just doing simple math on SOE's income from this game quickly shows that there aren't enough developers to tackle everything they have on their plate. TH got braver with this last set of responses and said "no" a lot. Sometimes he said, "no, we are too busy". Other times he said "no" and followed with a faulty rational. He should just stick with "no, we are too busy", as that's the truth.
IMHO, they should have given the full set of devs six more months on the game as it stands instead of starting them on JTL. In the long run, they are very likely to have two half-broken games merged together instead of one strong game.
Gwenevie
Panthu wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
...
That's not how it works. TH does not decide the answer... he gets the answer, then tries to put it in a readable form. TH is not an expert on every Prof, that's why we have the Corre System. The Musician answer did not make a lot of sense on the buff window... NewJedi, Tiaga, me, and other Corres who do Ent buffs explained this. For some reason, the answer still came out that way. *shrug*
The facts are still there though 1) We will not be getting a UI anytime soon if ever 2) We will not be getting Self Buffing until the EH XP is resolved because the Dev who birthed us feels like it was a bad design and self buffing is not a priority at this time.
Those were the Answers to NewJedi's questions. It is good to have the answers, now we need to try to convince them why it should be a priority.
If we did not have a system with Correspondents and TH, we would never know what the Devs were doing unless it came out in an officialstatement and we wouldn't have any way to give input. This is the system, we asked, they said no and why, we try to change their minds. Work the system.
Ok, so how do we do this? I'm willing to help in any way I can. For whatever reason, I have latched on to this. This is *extremely* important to me. All along, I thought maybe there were some kinks they needed to work out. I obviously even stupidly thought this was in the works. Why? I guess because it just seems only fair. This has really disappointed me quite a lot. I want to self buff *badly.* LOL. The excuse is lame, and the fact that entertainers are the only profession that can't use their own services just doesn't settle right with me. I don't often say things like this because I always think the devs are doing such a great job with things. (No sarcasm there). But, I'm gonna say it anyway. To use a phrase used quite often on these boards, "this is a slap in the face." It feels like such a devaluation compared to every other profession, and I just don't like it. I would like to be able to work within the system, as you say, to change it. I know no amount of ranting, raving, and whining will help. So, what will help? What can we do to persuade them to allow us to buff ourselves? This whole issue seems to me like it shouldn't even be an issue. Out of all fairness, this is something we *should* have gotten from the get go. Now it seems like they never had or don't have any intention of doing so. It's so obvious to me, and I would imagine 99% of entertainers, not to mention the non-entertainers who gasp in shock the first time they hear that we can't buff ourselves. I think the population at large thinks we should be able to buff ourselves. Yet, for some odd, inexplicable reason, the devs don't. How do we change their minds to see the obvious?
I never really even thought about it at first when I became a dancer or when I first started reading this forum but now I feel more and more that Entertainer, Dancer and Musician "require" a profession revamp. We need a role, a strong role that isn't just the phantom idea of just chatting and roleplaying.
There also ought to be some reason we don't need to stay inside a cantina, for the first week I played, starting as an Entertainer, I saw a bit of Tyrena, a bit of Coronet and hours and hours of inside the Coronet cantina. Ent missions could probably fix that a bit if they rewarded us properly for travelling and going to dance in different places. They could even create dymanic area's that work like a cantina, sort of like an outside concert that appears from time to time.
Panthu wrote:
Well, you can have a Corre that pitches fits and writes emails and posts like mad. Check!
You can also PM Devs, Email Devs, there was Silly's creative idea of /bugging it every time she couldn't buff herself, try to rally support in other forums (they might not care about our self buffing, but I think others do want our healing to be more in line with Medic's)...
The problem I keep running into is, the Devs do not consider us Healers. Our healing is some side benefit to... chatting? I'm not really sure. I think this is a bad plan. It doesn't make any sense to have our healing needed by others just like Medic healing but ours isn't "functional." The need is functional, so why is the healing not considered so?
The result of our gimpy healing has been wide usage of Buff Bots, which means no one needs us live... but we need them to need us for our content. *sigh* It's just loopy thinking.
I am not 100% married to the idea of us being healers, but if the gamebase is going to count on us, we should be full healers more in line with medics in my mind. The main reason we are considered not "functional" appears to be because we do not use resources. Also, we are being told that Ents have a "time investment" where as Medics have a "resource investment."
My main concern with that plan is that those that we heal also have this "time investment"... they don't seem to be taking that well... thus the buff bots and before that everyone training TK Meditate or keeping Novice Ent.
The problem with our Healing being tied to an enjoyable pastime is, that's not exactly something you can force. People need healing fast and close to where they are fighting, that will never be an NPC Cantina. If the need for Cantina Healing goes away though, we are pretty much with out a plan. The whole plan was for people to need us and pay us to be in the Cantinas, we would help them have fun while passing their downtime. We would have fun talking and dancing with each other when they weren't around.
This plan would still work if 1) People did not resent having to come into town 2) People were not setting up Buff Bots 3) Dancers were not dropping because they want to spend their skill points on a more "functional" template.
I saw this when I first took over as Corre... I started seeing that we weren't considered healers really at all. So the answer to "why can't we be more like medics?" will always be "no." I would be OK with that if we were really given a lot of toys like our Performance Enhancements, but that doesn't seem to be a priority either. We were truly envisioned as having no purpose other than chat and RP it seems. Not Masters of Visual Entertainment and not Soothing Mind Healers.This really has thrown me for a loop.
I was so sure we were meant to either be Healers or Party Spectacles (or both)... but, no. It seems we were just meant to chat. We have not been included in the new Force Sensitive Trees. There is a Healing line, but it only has the Medic bonus mods Injury Treatment and Injury Treatment Speed. We Ents are the only original base class that has zero bonuses represented.
This is scarry,
So, yes... I'm worried about the over all plan. I'm worried about what the CB will mean for our healing. I'm worried about our healing not being "functional." I'm worried about not getting any neat toys that will let us put on a better show beyond the Dances that we know are coming. I'm worried that our new Ent Quests and Hutt Casino will not really be Social. I'm worried about Buff Bots spamming up NPC Cantinas and being allowed to ruin our chat environment, the one thing we are really supposed to have.
I am worried that above all of this strangeness and lack of role, we are not considered entitled to a perk for our 106 skill points spent. *sigh* Yes, I'm worried about how we are going to fit in and who will play with us.
Panthu, you sound like me, a proffesional worrier!
My hope for the class is almost 100% wrapped up in the GCW Revamp. There, we have an opportunity for some very cool toys. They would most likely need a skill bonus attached to them, but I see this as our chance to get some real props and unique costumes. It has a lot of potential for many areas.
We are not included in the CB or the Force Sensitive Trees from the Jedi Revamp, but I am not ready to give up on that. I see both as an opportunity to enhance our Prof, and I think it should happen. So far, the Devs and TH don't agree with me, but I'm trying.
I have been accused of trying to change Dancer into something it was not meant to be before, but it's closer to the truth to say that I am open to almost anything because our role from Concept does not appear to be protected at all. I do have hope, but my hope is largely counting on change more than anything else. I do not want us to be a prof that costs 106 skill points, has no function, has no promise of new toys to enhance our Performer role because it's not a priority, has no use to groupmates, has no safe place for chatting because spamming Ad Buff Bots are the norm, and isn't considered deserving of a useful perk such as self buffing.
It does not seem that any of the things we have held in high esteem, our buffs, our showmanship, our roleplay and/or chatting, or even our bf and blue wound healing, are very safely guarded or will ever be considered a priority. I want us to be truly Social, but above all I want us to have a role and I want it protected.
I’m trying to make sure I know how you guys feel… I’m trying to make sure the Devs know how we feel… anything you can do to be supportive of that would be great.A long time ago, I realized that it was the people playing Dancer that made me love this profession as much as anything else the class actually gave me. That’s still true, we’re just a fun bunch.
I know we’ll survive no matter what, but we need to show the Devs what we need to stay the party people we are. Email, PM, work with the Corres, educate other players on our issues, and above all, always be a good representative of a Dancer.
Message Edited by Panthu on 05-29-2004 12:06 AM
)I may get down and depressed from day to day, but it doesn't last. Just wind me up (after last night I couldn't get anymore wound and ready, but thats another story and another thread ). Point me in the right direction (Lei is very bad with maps!). Give me agentle kick in the tushie and off I go. 
I'm sorry, but any profession can chat. That's not a game function and isn't even necessarily a social function (I can talk to myself all day). If the vision for this profession is to facilitate a Social experience, and this assumes that means between others besides other Entertainers, this will require a reason for other players to need us. All the great dance routines and pretty costumes in the galaxy will not lure the average player of this game into our Cantinas for a nice chat. I realize that is going to require "captive audiences", but if we serve no game function other than chatting, we all might as well log in AIM or something, those are free at least. I have this great fear that after Pub 9 goes live you will see one master Dancer/Musician AFK in each public and private Cantina providing free healing as the total extent of the Entertainer community (not that we are too far from that now.)
If the combat classes in the game are so much more important to the developers than the entertainers, then as soon as the hologrind goes away with the jedi revamp. We strike. We don't buff anyone. Especially not on Endor. Whenever someone asks you if you're buffing, you tell them:
"No. Until I can buff myself, I'm not buffing anyone else. You might mention it to your correspondant on the boards. Sorry friend."
If the developers don't consider us healers, let's stop healing people's mind wounds. Once the hologrind goes away, real entertainers might get a little few and far between. It's not going to be a matter of finding some afk zombie, plugging in your watch til ready, then leave when you're blued up after a bathroom break. The PvP'ers and the poisoned folk wandering around with more than half their mind gone will certainly start to notice once it really gets hard to actually FIND someone that can heal that. Too bad entertainers aren't healers, right?
As for our not being considered as valid because we have to invest our time instead of credits for resources... Well damn, I consider that my time is a LOT more valuable than fake online game money. Credits I can always make back. I will NEVER get back a 4 to 8 minute chunk of time I spend trying to buff somone's stats.
We are insulted time and again for the contribution we seemingly don't give to the game. We're not considered healers, though we're supposed to heal mind damage. We're supposed to be entertainers, but we're not given the steps to dance with. We're supposed to go out and do entertainer missions, but the money they pay off is a tenth of what a combat class does and hardly covers transport to the gig. We're supposed to be there for chat and conversation, but can hardly speak through the deluge of spammers. Every class can use their skills to their own benefit, including buffing, unless you're an entertainer. If you want to go the force sensitive route and add a mystical depth to your character, you got it, unless you're an entertainer. Mastering the Dancer Profession is basically a meaningless endeavor as you get three flourishes out of eight for the two styles you pick up, and you still fall as though you were a novice. Support for our worth as a profession has been undermined by a system that lets you master it while out at the movies or in bed. Most dancers are pretty much assumed to be not serious about their profession, wasting their time, or worse, just doing it to unlock the Jedi thing anyway and just passing through. When does it stop?
I'm really starting to question whether or not this is something I want to keep. And I feel awful about it because the idea of being someone that helps other characters through 'artistic' expression is one that really grabs me where I live and keeps me. I don't want to feel like someone who just gives it up cos I see no practical gain in it. But at the same time, I'm paying my monthly fee like everyone else. I'm literally paying to get insulted and ignored in favor of space pilots, bounty hunters and Jedi. I'm getting it twice over really. Pistoleers are currently questioning what their role in the game is too, as they're being excluded in jaunts out to the oh-so-wonderful new dungeon on Endor, even when one of the new huge drops is meant for Master pistoleers.
Panthu, I'm applauding the hell out of you for your dedication and drive to stay positive in the face of Dev ignorance. You seem pretty representative of an agent for positive and constructive change, and I have nothing but respect for you. But if we can't see a verbal way to make developers see sense, then we need to make them see our worth in a practical way. When Publish 9 comes in and we still can't buff ourselves? Let's not mind heal or buff anyone else either. We need to make our worth felt by the classes that really do depend on us that GET Dev attention. Make a button with the message attached to it so you don't have to type it every time. But let's be nice about it. Yes the other classes will be put out by our withholding services, but we don't have to be mean about it. Simply apologize, and encourage the other classes to speak on our behalf if no-one's going to listen to us.
"T'is as plain as the nose on your face is another annoying remark the sages make. Think on it. Who walks around all day staring at their nose?"
-Ebenezum
Panthu, nothing I've ever read on these forums has made me despair more for all entertainers than what you wrote in your last post in this thread. I know you are trying, and I know you are banging your head against a wall, and it just makes me sad that the wall will never move.
WinterRose, striking won't do anything but hasten the appearance of more buff/heal-bots and speed the demise of the few remaining entertainers trying to eek out some fun from the game.
I've given up, after 11 months, I've given up.
It's funny because the night that I found out that we wouldn't be able to buff ourselves, I became very bitter and sarcastic in guildchat. It's not a pretty side, although it does have its comedic moments. I and the other master dancer in my guild started joking around that we would no longer be buffing anyone, including our guildmates until we could buff ourselves. Every conversation that started, we steered back to the conversation of buffing ourselves. One of the droid engineers in our group offered his services, we'd ask "Can your droid allow us to buff ourselves?" We joked around how the only people we would ever buff was each other or better yet, only the really annoying well-known spammers and griefers on our server. Probably some people became annoyed with us. But, most of them, even while joking around with us, fully supported the idea that we should, in fact, be able to buff ourselves and that it made absolutely no sense that we couldn't. I guess my point is, even though we were half in jest, the thought of striking did cross our minds. And, for the exact same reasons that you outlined. Personally, I think it would be wonderful if we did. After all, the Wookies went on strike and got some armor didn't they?
However, I see several problems with the idea.
1.) It's extraordinarily difficult for a message board idea to take off in the community at large. While it is true that the Wookies were able to put together a rally in front of the Theed starport, what they were doing was just a show of numbers, it was more passive than active. What we're talking about here is actively trying to get as many people as possible to not use their services for healing and buffing. There are a whole lot of people who won't do that, either due to apathy, or unfeasibility (maybe they need the money). And, even if you could convince everyone on these forums to go on strike, you're still going to have over 95% of the people in game who won't agree to it. That pretty much leaves the strikers out of work, with no visibility to our cause, barely making a dent in things. To actually make something like this work, it would take an extraordinary amount of work. I'm not sure exactly who is up to that kind of a task. I'd even hesitate to do it myself. Even though I would fully support it and do it if I knew for a fact that enough people were actually going to step up to the plate and do it. But, you know, also, it can't be done half-assed either. There'd have to be no exceptions...No buffs for friends or guildmembers. The only exception? Possibly allowing us to buff each other.
2.) Let's even say for a moment that we were successful in doing this. I doubt we would be, but let's just pretend we are. So what? Because our profession is *completely* afk'able, including buffage, then our actions would no doubt lead to the creation of more afk healers and afk buffbots. We'd almost be spelling our own doom by encouraging others to find a way to work around our strike. Never mind the fact that until the complete Jedi revamp, there is no way you will convince all of the hologrinders to stop grinding the entertainer professions. So, we'd never stop the mind and battle fatigue healing. The only thing we might be able to stop is the buffing. But, even then, like I said, there are afk buffbots and chef foods.
3.) You might make people mad. Those who have relied on us to buff them, our friends, our guildmembers, and even the stranger who walks into the Cantina will be mad if we don't heal or buff them. And, I guess I'm not entirely confident enough to say that they won't take it out on me and make an enemy out of me, instead of the devs of this game. The general population isn't always entirely rational, and has a nasty habit of misdirected anger.
Despite all this, I do think we should be more proactive with this. What to do? I am not sure. Rather than call for a multi-server wide strike at this point, maybe we should concentrate on doing something like the Wookies did. A rally of sorts. Pick a server, have everybody log on, get your non-entertainer friends, storm the front of Theed and make our voices heard. Do screenshots, bombard the devs with them. Post it on the events forum, etc. Civil disobedience as it were, see what happens. The problem I am seeing is that because such a small percentage of gameplayers read and post, and an even smaller amount of posters are entertainers compared to the other professions, our voices aren't heard as loudly and as clearly as many of the other professions. Which is why I say, let's pick one server, gather thousands of people, and storm the starport. Let the devs know that we mean business and that we have a lot of support about an issue that nearly 99% of the playerbase agrees upon: Allow the entertainers to self buff. Simple concept, we all agree, we have the support if it weren't for generalized apathy. Eh, if it doesn't work, then maybe we can consider witholding our services. Frankly, ever since I heard the self-buffing news, I realized that the only reason I'm staying in this profession is because I'm part of a performance troupe. If I wasn't, I would start having serious thoughts, I mean really serious thoughts, about dropping.
Actually, I've pretty much come to a decision about the whole Dancer thing. The big dancer update is basically Make or Break time for me. If they haven't given us the rest of our dance steps, if they haven't fixed our buffs, if they haven't rigged the missions to give us adequate compensation, I'm done. I'll stay on until publish 10, then start my Force Sensitive and Jedi Training, seeing as they're going to be getting all the attention in the game anyway. I'd like to continue with Dancer. But I'm not leaving my points spent for insults with no return. If I'm so easily replacable with an AFK Buffbot, then the buffbot can do it without my beating my head against a wall to get the attention of Devs that could give a damn.
You can also PM Devs, Email Devs, there was Silly's creative idea of /bugging it every time she couldn't buff herself, try to rally support in other forums (they might not care about our self buffing, but I think others do want our healing to be more in line with Medic's)...
The problem I keep running into is, the Devs do not consider us Healers. Our healing is some side benefit to... chatting? I'm not really sure. I think this is a bad plan. It doesn't make any sense to have our healing needed by others just like Medic healing but ours isn't "functional." The need is functional, so why is the healing not considered so?
The result of our gimpy healing has been wide usage of Buff Bots, which means no one needs us live... but we need them to need us for our content. *sigh* It's just loopy thinking.
I am not 100% married to the idea of us being healers, but if the gamebase is going to count on us, we should be full healers more in line with medics in my mind. The main reason we are considered not "functional" appears to be because we do not use resources. Also, we are being told that Ents have a "time investment" where as Medics have a "resource investment."
My main concern with that plan is that those that we heal also have this "time investment"... they don't seem to be taking that well... thus the buff bots and before that everyone training TK Meditate or keeping Novice Ent.
The problem with our Healing being tied to an enjoyable pastime is, that's not exactly something you can force. People need healing fast and close to where they are fighting, that will never be an NPC Cantina. If the need for Cantina Healing goes away though, we are pretty much with out a plan. The whole plan was for people to need us and pay us to be in the Cantinas, we would help them have fun while passing their downtime. We would have fun talking and dancing with each other when they weren't around.
This plan would still work if 1) People did not resent having to come into town 2) People were not setting up Buff Bots 3) Dancers were not dropping because they want to spend their skill points on a more "functional" template.
I saw this when I first took over as Corre... I started seeing that we weren't considered healers really at all. So the answer to "why can't we be more like medics?" will always be "no." I would be OK with that if we were really given a lot of toys like our Performance Enhancements, but that doesn't seem to be a priority either. We were truly envisioned as having no purpose other than chat and RP it seems. Not Masters of Visual Entertainment and not Soothing Mind Healers.
This really has thrown me for a loop.I was so sure we were meant to either be Healers or Party Spectacles (or both)... but, no. It seems we were just meant to chat. We have not been included in the new Force Sensitive Trees. There is a Healing line, but it only has the Medic bonus mods Injury Treatment and Injury Treatment Speed. We Ents are the only original base class that has zero bonuses represented.
So, yes... I'm worried about the over all plan. I'm worried about what the CB will mean for our healing. I'm worried about our healing not being "functional." I'm worried about not getting any neat toys that will let us put on a better show beyond the Dances that we know are coming. I'm worried that our new Ent Quests and Hutt Casino will not really be Social. I'm worried about Buff Bots spamming up NPC Cantinas and being allowed to ruin our chat environment, the one thing we are really supposed to have.
I am worried that above all of this strangeness and lack of role, we are not considered entitled to a perk for our 106 skill points spent. *sigh* Yes, I'm worried about how we are going to fit in and who will play with us.
My hope for the class is almost 100% wrapped up in the GCW Revamp. There, we have an opportunity for some very cool toys. They would most likely need a skill bonus attached to them, but I see this as our chance to get some real props and unique costumes. It has a lot of potential for many areas.
We are not included in the CB or the Force Sensitive Trees from the Jedi Revamp, but I am not ready to give up on that. I see both as an opportunity to enhance our Prof, and I think it should happen. So far, the Devs and TH don't agree with me, but I'm trying.
I have been accused of trying to change Dancer into something it was not meant to be before, but it's closer to the truth to say that I am open to almost anything because our role from Concept does not appear to be protected at all. I do have hope, but my hope is largely counting on change more than anything else. I do not want us to be a prof that costs 106 skill points, has no function, has no promise of new toys to enhance our Performer role because it's not a priority, has no use to groupmates, has no safe place for chatting because spamming Ad Buff Bots are the norm, and isn't considered deserving of a useful perk such as self buffing.
It does not seem that any of the things we have held in high esteem, our buffs, our showmanship, our roleplay and/or chatting, or even our bf and blue wound healing, are very safely guarded or will ever be considered a priority. I want us to be truly Social, but above all I want us to have a role and I want it protected.
A long time ago, I realized that it was the people playing Dancer that made me love this profession as much as anything else the class actually gave me. That’s still true, we’re just a fun bunch. I know we’ll survive no matter what, but we need to show the Devs what we need to stay the party people we are. Email, PM, work with the Corres, educate other players on our issues, and above all, always be a good representative of a Dancer. Message Edited by Panthu on 05-29-2004 12:06 AM