CUEmu - Thread Posts

Fobik

Wed May 26, 2004 11:19 pm

** please refrain from trolling/flaming on these forums. **

Message Edited by Virrago on 05-27-2004 08:36 AM

nvoigt

Thu May 27, 2004 1:20 am

"Musicians will not get the ability to buff their own Focus and Willpower. As the system currently exists, if players could buff themselves, they would get experience points every time they buffed themselves and that is bad design."

As the system currently exists we can't buff ourselves. This is while we file a freaking change request. To change the system as it currently exists. Sometimes I wonder if light bends around those statements, it sure doesn't get any more dense.

Xyrdre

Thu May 27, 2004 1:53 am

#16

I don't know what "With the GCW revamp, all professions will be seeing new playability" means at all. I still equate GCW with PvP, so if one is not interested in PvP, will the GCW in any revampedform be interesting? Further saying that, "the nature of that professional growth is undeveloped at this time" means to methat no one knows just how all professions will be seeing new playability, but that "new playability", whatever that means,is on a lot of wish lists. I hope this is just poor communication - otherwise it could be paraphrased as saying "We know that a lot of professions are unplayable, but we have no idea what to do about it." It may be an honest answer, but unfortunately, not a very encouraging one.

Just wanted to check on the timeframe here. Post JTL. Last I heard, JTL was due out in December... is thisaccurate or wild rumor?

I also assume that JTL will have fixes that are neededright away after its releaseto make some show-stopper or another playable- it just seems to be the nature of the beast with ambitiousnew releases. Call that at least a mini-publish to a publish afterwards to address those issues.

It's sounding very much like a "not anytime soon" for any kind of performance enhancements. We're on the verge of June 2004, and by the sounds of things, we're looking at a maybe byMarch 2005 - barring any further work for the combat professions, on the ground or in space.

But here is the caution about staving off work for so longon our entertainer professions. Everyone is thinking it, I'm just saying it. I fear that without some dedication tothis experimentin thisnew type of role in a game of this type, it will be dead before it has a chance to come into its own. From everything I've seen and heard, we're losing entertainers a lot faster than new ones are starting up and sticking with it. Thereare too few players who want to put on good performances, and those thatdohave not the tools to do so. Bandflos and smokebombsare only interesting so many times. All too many of the new entertainers learn based on what they see... andwhat they see is AFK.When AFK "entertainer" healers and buffbots are the norm (and encouraged by officialpolicy), our "social profession" is nothing more than a parking garage... some thingthat one pulls up to and gets a service. Where is the social in that? Is the experiment already poisoned and entering it's death throes by allowing the unattended "play"?

I will do my best to remain hopeful, and look to the Hutt casino and other promised quest content for entertainer classes to then be strong enough to maintain interest for players in these professions for at least the next 9 months, since it's looking like there will be nothing else provided during that period of time.

If the intention is to have this experiment becomesuccessful, some work must be done to make it successful... andall of the indications are thatwe're starting to run out of time.

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

Drygo

Thu May 27, 2004 5:01 am

#17

Fobik wrote:

And this is not a negative toward Draygo in the post a few up but if you think SOE streams in content fast..You need to get out in the MMOG world more often. Microsoft is the king of content in MMOs and SWG has been pathetic. Example?

Love your speeder?

They cut your normal movement in half 2 revs before speeders so your "vehicles" were "fast". That is not content that is a crock of..we have no creativity. Same Dancer in rev 8 as in rev 3. Same issues...same ..we arent going to do anything because we are busy making software to sell you.

This game sucks for content adding..TH just told us that basically NO content for 90% of the profs for atleast 2 revs..then SE...then 4 revs of fixing broke space...and still promising a "combat revision" ..such crap.

Love

Glenda

PS.. and YES I could do better than they are supposed to be doing.

It's possible that I just haven't played the right games. I have played several MMORPG's in the past, and I can gaurantee you that this game has churned out content faster than any other game I have ever played. Usually I use the same argument that you have above. When people complain about content, I tell them...try playing some other games and you will see that SWG churns out content faster than most games out there. I also try to point out that just because they haven't addressed your particular issues yet, doesn't mean that they aren't addressing multiple issues on any given week. JTL, combat revamp, Jedi revamp...they are all huge undertakings. Yet, at the same time they are able to make less major changes every two weeks. All of the social classes have gotten or will be getting some sort of major content between now and then (the ID's just got theirs). And, that's not to mention the other stuff that they're doing and adding on a regular basis like the Corvette, or the DW Bunker. Everyone may have their own particular issues with any number of these changes. But, the fact of the matter is that some form of content is put in at least every two weeks, if not more. That, to me, is pretty darn fast. Oh, and I forgot about the droids...And, actually, as I sit here now I keep thinking of more and more things that have been added to the game, so I'm just going to stop listing them because I could keep going on in for what seems like forever.

Ah well, different perspectives I suppose.

Message Edited by Drygo on 05-27-2004 05:06 AM

- I support hawtpants

ArgentWulf

Thu May 27, 2004 5:10 am

#18

Xyrdre wrote:

. . .

But here is the caution about staving off work for so longon our entertainer professions. Everyone is thinking it, I'm just saying it. I fear that without some dedication tothis experimentin thisnew type of role in a game of this type, it will be dead before it has a chance to come into its own. From everything I've seen and heard, we're losing entertainers a lot faster than new ones are starting up and sticking with it. . .

I will do my best to remain hopeful, and look to the Hutt casino and other promised quest content for entertainer classes to then be strong enough to maintain interest for players in these professions for at least the next 9 months, since it's looking like there will be nothing else provided during that period of time.

If the intention is to have this experiment becomesuccessful, some work must be done to make it successful... andall of the indications are thatwe're starting to run out of time.

Ok its been about 10 or so hours since I read the 19 mostly non-answersandI can now post in a some what calm and level headed (for me) manner. Delia expressed quite a few of my sentiments with the above comments. There may grand-wizz-bang-hold-your-breath-you-wont-believe-your-eyes-brighter-than-the-sun content coming in the months/year to come, but will there be any of us left to enoy it?! We need something and we need it soon. Throw us a bone! Nothing like those silly bug inducing Ent droids either or the hobbling effects of the 15 second delay or more problems to the already bug infested buffs (amazing how bugs can stack). We need to have an idea of whats coming and when.

I know, I know: Hutt Casino.

That could easily be a make or break time for many of us. We've been waiting and hoping for so long that if this doesnt hold water the game may no longer hold many of us.

I know I dont sound too postive in this post, but its a lot more positive then when I first read the TH19.

Before I close i have to point out something. I've worked in customer service for a good portion of my life. I know you can't always please everyone. You can be perfect and there are still going to be dissatisfied customers. Even still there are some ground rules to go by:

If you can do it...do it!

If you can't do it, don't say that you can.

You need customers they don't need you.

Communicate in a timely fashion.

When something goes wrong compensate the customer for their time and patience.

A good customer may tell one person a dissatisfied customer tends to tell anyone who will listen.

/lectureOff

The devs do have one thing right. The game may draw us together but whatholds us here is the friends and the community we belong to. All you guys on the forum and all thoseI know in game are the reason I've been here now for a year plus. I really would like to make a similar statementa year from now. It kind of all depends on how many of us can stick it out.

Leivi Esava
Galaxy Girl for May 2005
Life is a journey, not a destination, enjoy the ride! A special friend makes it even more fun.

kirah_ashlin

Thu May 27, 2004 5:12 am

#19

/cry

/deepbreath

/staveofftantrum

Okay, trying to be "positive" in a very gloomy situation here, I have one comment I can make - although I feel the discussion on it is probably a bit moot . . . .

Panthu wrote:

Drygo wrote:
I propose that our next question is this: Since the "reason" for not letting us buff ourselves is because we can get experience from it, is it possible to make it so that only Master Dancers can buff themselves? Master Dancers (and Musicians) gain nothing from experience.

Yep, we can ask that.

How about adding a bit more "nerf" to that suggestion so the devs might find it even more paletable? Masters continue to gain healing xp well beyond its usefulness to us (caps at 900k, right?). So, why not allow masters to buff themselves but have it reduce the amount of stored healing xp by some percentage that would equate out to the self-buff? Say, for every self-buff, we would lose 1K of xp healing (just an example -please, don't anyonejump on me for the amount being too high/low). We would continue to receive healing xp whenever we danced or played music, however If we allowedour surplusto run out (i.e. buffed ourselves more often than we performed for wounded patrons who /watch or /listen), we would not be able to self-buff until we gained enough xp back. Heck, this could even worth for novices as long as they realize that they lose precious healing xp whenever they do self-buff!

I know that this idea, in and of itself, isn't without flaws, but its a start . . . Great suggestion Drygo!!

Oh, and to you, dear Panthu - thanks for your upbeat (but not sachriny) positive attitude. If not for that, I might be threatening to add my name to the Dancers Memorial Wall thread about now . . . /hug

Drygo

Thu May 27, 2004 6:24 am

#20

Tiaga wrote:
Ah yes, the explanation I gave Panthu when she was shaking a stick at buffing.

on the healing xp from buffing was that sure, it isn't much..... But everyone in the group gets it. The minimum is 5xp a tick at novice musician/dancer. If everyone in the group is getting 5xp a tick, that's 100xp every 10 seconds. If the rate can be sustained, that means you can get all the healing xp you need in 13 hours, 53 minutes and 20 seconds.

That used to be the case anyway. Well, would have been if self-buffs existed and gave xp. Without the best you could do is 1/4 the rate. (Half the group watches the other half for a bit, then they trade. Each half gets 50xp every half the time. Before buffs were targetted, theoretically a big enough group could do even better

However, with some of the recent changes, that is no longer the case. That was one of the things I tested when testing buffs, as this discussion happened before I did that. With the current code, the best you could do is 5xp a minute, putting your group of 20 down to about 1/12th, or a week's time to get the xp for master.

Hmm....even though I haven't really done the math involved, I think I understand the gist of what you're saying. Basically, if everyonecontinuously buffedthemselves in a group, then everyone in the group would get ent healing xp too quickly.

Ok, at least now I think I understand the problem.

However, considering our profession is completely afk'able, there are people who make master over the course of 2 or 3 days already. This is the fault of the development team for instituting such an abhorrent method of gameplay with the questionable motive of preventing 3rd party programs. I have to say that I have always thought this was a bad decision on their parts...probably akin to the whole hologrind, which again, they themselves implemented. The fact of the matter is, even without this infinitesimal amount of healing experience gained by self buffing, people are allowed to master this profession within a matter of days. It seems extraordinarily insignificant, to me, at least, that this small amount of entertainment healing experience really matters all that much. The people who would use this are the same people who would just rush through it anyway. And, I have serious doubts that it would *really* go that much faster for them. And, quite frankly, I really don't care.

Instead of penalizing the masters by making us unable to buff ourselves, perhaps they really need to concentrate on fixing the things that they did that *really* ruined the profession. I still think it's absolutely laughable to suggest that this small amount of EH xp is bad game design, when they have made it completely possible to afk everything in the first place. It's ironic and insulting to suggest that this really makes a difference in the grand scheme of things when people master within 3 days by dancing overnight AFK, healing while afk, and buffing for free while afk, all brought to a head because of the hologrind. The hologrind will be over soon enough. And, I could frankly give a hoot if those that actually want to dance get there one day quicker if we are allowed to buff ourselves.

This basically seems like we're being punished by not allowing us the ability to use our own services because of the *real* bad game design that they, themselves implemented. Let us buff ourselves. But, change the way afk works, and get rid of the hologrind. By using this xp excuse they're ignoring several facts. First, people will get normal healing experience over the course of the day, and the buffing xp isn't going to speed it up that much. Second, combat medics are diseasing entire groups of dancers, and they are gaining xp that way. Again, self buffing won't speed it up that much. Third, not everyone in the group is capable of buffing. There are many people not yet in the elite skill trees so they won't be able to participate in the self buffing. Many people, including myself would choose not to participate, just like I choose not to be diseased by combat medics. Fourth, the hologrind will be over soon, thereby making it more likely that there will be more "real" entertainers who choose not to use this method.

Basically, in the grand scheme of things, even after learning what Tiaga said, I just don't think this is a good enough excuse to keep us from self buffing. I still find it quite laughable and insulting, actually.

Solutions include: getting rid of afk healing, buffing. Getting rid of the hologrind. All of these suggestions would conceivably not only make our profession a whole lot more enjoyable and valuable, but curb some of the *actual* bad game design that the devs implemented while allowing us to have something that we should have had a long time ago. One could also make an argument for only allowing masters to buff themselves, which honestly wouldn't have that great of a negative effect because 99% of the people don't buff until they achieve master anyway. And, most of those going up the ranks are probably willing to wait until they hit master. They'll still be able to buff others, but it's an extra incentive to master the profession. Also, remove ENT xp healing when buffing in the first place. The vast majority of us didn't even notice that this existed. And, most of the people who haven't yet achieved master status never even use it. So by removing the Ent xp from the buffing code, the vast majority of people will not see any difference in gameplay whatsoever. Besides, most people who are buffing are masters anyway. And, I'm sure I've said this 30 times already. We don't need the experience.

Message Edited by Drygo on 05-27-2004 06:30 AM

Message Edited by Drygo on 05-27-2004 06:33 AM

- I support hawtpants

Groovymarlin

Thu May 27, 2004 8:13 am

#21

ArgentWulf wrote:

I know, I know: Hutt Casino.

That could easily be a make or break time for many of us. We've been waiting and hoping for so long that if this doesnt hold water the game may no longer hold many of us.

I've begun to think that the timely release of the Hutt Casino "social adventure" and the content therein will be my make or break point. I'm just so frustrated now.

By the way I really like Kirah's idea for self-buffing - make it subract some entertainer healing xp. This would be good for me, because I capped long ago, and I have nothing to use it on (not planning to do musician any time soon). I always found the entertainer healing xp ticks very useful because they told me that someone was actually watching me! Very useful when giving a buff especially. I mean we have no other way of knowing that anyone is watching us (though I believe a past request was some type of "customer list").

So if I use up entertainer healing xp buffing myself, I'll be gaining it again when dancing for others and have that nice visual cue that someone is watching. And I think attaching a "price" tothe self-buff would also make it less prone to being exploited for xp purposes.

La'lepa Ofo

Master Dancer :: Master Swordswoman :: Force Sensitive
AFKing is not entertaining - support real entertainers

Xyrdre

Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 am

#22

Why does buffing generate entertainer healing XP in the first place?

Conceptually, we are not healing when we buff - we're bolstering and inspiring. There is no reason that there should be entertainer healing XP gained for buffing. Keep entertainer healing XP for healing of BF and mind wounds, and in the absence of these things, no healing XP. Does anyone think that a lack of the few points ofEH XP gainedfrom simplybuffing would break our profession?

Rather than going on and on about self-buffing and the entertainer healing XP gains, why not simply suggest that no XP be gained for buffing. Problem solved.

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

Panthu

Thu May 27, 2004 12:18 pm

#23

SrinKnorei wrote:

when has this ever given me more exp? i certainly haven't ever noticed it. maybe i capped out my exp gain before i ever noticed a trend, but i have never ehard of this.

Ok, I had this reaction too... there is nothing that you guys are saying that I didn't a few weeks ago. We are viewed differently than Docs, if I didn't understand it before, I do now.

There has been much Ent Corre freaking out. We're all taking turns... I'm taking about every other turn because I am good at freak outs. I want the Devs to know that you guys feel this way... I want you guys to know that I'm with you... but I really want to try to encourage you to try to stick to facts rather than slamming the Devs or TH. I know it's a frustrating answer, but we need to work the system here.

1. We do get some EH XP for buffing... yes, I see all of the reasons why it shouldn't matter. Tiaga had to knock me around a little about this one... I'll ask him to post his explanation here. It's the only one I have so far.

2. It has been pointed out multiple times that our worth is proven in a time investment... where as Medics have a resource investment. Yes, I see all the problems here. I'm working on it. This trips us down the strange path of resources though... which you guys still seem to be mixed on, so I have to watch what I say.

Take deep breaths, I think we are going to be OK... we just need some more input here. This is a new type of class, this is still a young game, we have a lot of room to grow.

P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

Tiaga

Thu May 27, 2004 12:55 pm

#24

Ah yes, the explanation I gave Panthu when she was shaking a stick at buffing.

on the healing xp from buffing was that sure, it isn't much..... But everyone in the group gets it. The minimum is 5xp a tick at novice musician/dancer. If everyone in the group is getting 5xp a tick, that's 100xp every 10 seconds. If the rate can be sustained, that means you can get all the healing xp you need in 13 hours, 53 minutes and 20 seconds.

That used to be the case anyway. Well, would have been if self-buffs existed and gave xp. Without the best you could do is 1/4 the rate. (Half the group watches the other half for a bit, then they trade. Each half gets 50xp every half the time. Before buffs were targetted, theoretically a big enough group could do even better

However, with some of the recent changes, that is no longer the case. That was one of the things I tested when testing buffs, as this discussion happened before I did that. With the current code, the best you could do is 5xp a minute, putting your group of 20 down to about 1/12th, or a week's time to get the xp for master.

Inside my heart is breaking, my make-up may be flaking
But my smile still stays on
My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies
Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die
I can fly - my friendsSWG Entertainer.com Fashions by TK

kirah_ashlin

Thu May 27, 2004 2:08 pm

#25

Xyrdre wrote:

Why does buffing generate entertainer healing XP in the first place?

Conceptually, we are not healing when we buff - we're bolstering and inspiring. There is no reason that there should be entertainer healing XP gained for buffing. Keep entertainer healing XP for healing of BF and mind wounds, and in the absence of these things, no healing XP. Does anyone think that a lack of the few points ofEH XP gainedfrom simplybuffing would break our profession?

Rather than going on and on about self-buffing and the entertainer healing XP gains, why not simply suggest that no XP be gained for buffing. Problem solved.

I don't know Deila . . . I suppose their response would be that it would cause a game breaking code change or some such nonsense . . . /sigh

Xyrdre

Thu May 27, 2004 10:18 pm

#26

I know... the solution couldn't be that simple.

Or... could it?

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

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Thread: Update: Latest Answer from TH