Dancer Archive

Thread: You people need to learn how to dance

Coir
Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:36 am
#27

Single dancer in cantina no flourish on basic dance. Heal wounds at the exact same rate as dancing exotic 2 and burning action like there is no tomorrow. How do I know it was the same rate? Because the person I was healing was sitting next to me in RL and I was watching their wound numbers. Not just looking at bars.


Flourish affects one thing and one thing only as far as pure stats go. Dance xp.



As far as entertainer heal xp goes. Much like every other xp in the game it 'improves' as you level in the skill. I have two seperate numbers when I heal a single person and it appears that these are BF heals and wound heals respectively. I have worked my BF healing and not raised any levels of wound healing. One of my xp totals (the first one that scrolls on screen) has been increasing in number while my second one (wounds) is still only worth 4-6 on a single person.


A guildmate helped with some testing today and came in with high fatigue but no actual wounds (ranged combat, single shotting missions about Narmle). This simply increased the amount of BF xp I was getting.


While healing someone with mind wounds and focus and BF I get three lots of numbers. Again this is a single person watching me. I get two low numbers (I assume one mind one focus) and my usual 'chunk' of BF healing.


Well that's pretty much what my testing has shown to date and it stands with my normal play too if I follow the assumption Mind, Focus, Willpower and BFare all seperate xp amounts (and therefore totals)when I heal.




Coir
TC/Valcyn

"lol, there is an inter office bet about at SOE about how long this thread will get before we give up. "
-Rorrari
Coir
Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:39 am
#28

My tutu for an edit key...Just to explain the guildmate who helped. He was a second person we added to my housemate. So I was healing two lots of BF and earnt more xp doing the two.



Coir
TC/Valcyn

"lol, there is an inter office bet about at SOE about how long this thread will get before we give up. "
-Rorrari
Kuildeous
Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:27 am
#29






Beery wrote:

When experimenting, remember that any oneflourish has a residual effect. If you perform a flourish, it will generate heals and XP not just once, but asmany times as the number of Dance XP it generated. So if you perform a flourish and it gets 10 dance XP, after ten seconds it will have a residual effect of giving 9 dance XP, and after that 8, and then 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and finally 1 XP before it runs out completely. This also affects healing - after a flourish that gains 100XP, that singleflourish will generate heals and dance XP fornearly 17minutes as its effectiveness winds down. This can make it seem as if merely dancing without flourishing is generating XP andheal points, but it isn't. Even if you stop dancing and start up again, the residual effect from an earlier flourish may still be in effect, and it may seem as if you're healing by simply dancing with no flourishes.





This troubles me. This post sounds very authoritative, as if the numbers were the result of some specific testing. Yet you follow up with this:
Of course I could be wrong. I've yet to do a real experimentation with this aspect of the game. I'll be interested to see any findings you come up with.


It looks like you're taking what you feel should be the result and declaring them as fact. Please let's avoid that. There are a lot of uncertainties in our field. Just recently, we discovered the joys of mind buffs. Go back and read those comments. There were some wild speculation, including a claim that only a Master Dancer can give the mind buff. We need to be careful about passing things off as solid truth.


Not to say that speculation is wrong--that is how we eventually learn things. But be careful with passing things off as the truth. To say that healing occurs only when flourishing is involved is considered a definite statement which may discourage some people from experimenting with that. Questioning if healing occurs without flourishes is much more constructive.


Just an observation here. I find that speaking in definites can be tricky business when dealing with the forums. A lot of people visit the forums for information and don't read each and every thread and are aware of the cross-topics (as we sometimes tend to make references to other threads, oops). We need to be considerate of their needs.




RIP: Tasha Jalul - Radiant
Love Star Wars, but the few role-players I could find on the servers were outnumbered by powergamers who wanted only l337 l00t and mad skillz. I can't justify paying $15 a month to play a game by myself.
Still cares enough to interject an opinion, though.
Beery
Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:08 am
#30

"It looks like you're taking what you feel should be the result and declaring them as fact."


WRONG. They are what I've observed through cursory examination. My observations could be the result of co-incidences such as people finishing their heals just as I end the flourish session, or beginning their heals as I start to dance without flourishing.


I wish people would stop jumping to conclusions, and assuming the worst about people before they have all the facts.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.
Beery
Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:18 am
#31

"The tests you did really aren't adaquate in finding this out"


Why? All other thingswere equal as far as I'm aware. I changed only the dance, and the guy's wounds healed faster with the more advanced dance. I did this test under strict conditions ona couple of separate occasions. Each time the results showed the same thing. While coincidence can alwaysbe a factor, the duration of the experiment was such that it would be aBIG coincidence.


I'm willing to concede that flourishes are unnecessary for somehealing to take place, as I'm only going on non-scientific observation,but are you saying that flourishes don'taid in healing at all? I seem to be seeing greater healing activity the more frequently I flourish.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.
Beery
Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:25 am
#32

Actually, it would be great if the type of dancedid not affect the healing process. I hope this turns out to be the case. Then I can work on fine-tuning dance macros to give a good show rather than havingmacros which flourish every 10 seconds to maximize heals, butwithout any artistry.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.
Ravenmist
Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:51 am
#33

Its not adaquate because it was done on only one person. Theres just too many variables and I can say from similar tests I've done that I can't find a bonus to the higher dances. There is a degree of randomness but I'll try and put together a more in depth test in next day or two using several people all monitoring their wounds and noting each tick and I'll probably run it several times just to be sure. That will give us a better idea at least. But from running tests where the person is reading off to me the exact numbers as they go down I can say I haven't found a difference.


One test on one guy just and just switching dances during a single healing session doesn't give you nearly enough information to come to any conclusions tho. You might be right tho, there could be a bonus and I just havne't noticed it yet. I agree with you tho in that I hope there isn't because it would limit our possibilities when it comes to getting the most out of our healing.


Far as the other part goes tho, I am 99% sure flourishes don't impact healing, they are just for show. If I see a dev tonight I'll see if they know the answer to these questions tho. They probably won't tho, I'd have to get lucky and find someone thats worked in our department or is at least in the same room with the guy. hehe

Sinda
Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:17 am
#34

Beery's surmise is not accurate. If you dance solo some place without being /watched, you get no Dance xp until you flourish once. Then you get the -1 progression he noted, but it has NOTHING to do with how much you are healing. What he's seeing is simply the result of not being /watched. If you are /watched, your Dance XP will remain fairly constant after your first flourish.

However, I have on many occasions danced in my own house or in an empty cantina and have had my character pane up. I've watched 150 Battle Fatigue and 150 Mind wounds dwindle to zero without doing so much as ONE single flourish.

Ergo, the two issues are not related. Dance XP is tied to the level of the dance you are doing, the size of your group and the flourishes you do. Healing, on the other hand, is only related to your current healing skill and nothing else.



Sinda Blackstar
Master Dancer/Teras Kasi Novice
"Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun." - Raph Koster
Beery
Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:45 am
#35

"Its not adaquate because it was done on only one person."


I'm not sure if you read my earlier post, but I think I made it clear that it was done on two people. Has anyone done any larger study? If not, then I suggest they do so, and prove my study to be inaccurate. Until that point, I think we need to focus on probability based onobservationrather than onspeculation based on belief and rumour.


Let's do some deepertesting,THEN we can call into question smaller studies like mine. Doing so now, when there is little or no evidence to the contrary, is unscientific at best.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.
Beery
Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:53 am
#36

Let's get a clear answer on this. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong if someone will do the work to prove it. I simply don't have time to do hours of in-depthtesting, so I'm limited in that sense. This is an important issue that needs clarifying, and as I said before, I really hope I am wrong, since it will allow a lot more versatility to the dance profession. At the moment though, I'm still seeing results that indicate to me that the type of dance impacts heal time, and I've yet to see anything that contradicts this, apart from somewhatvague references to tests done a while ago and baseless contradiction.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.
Ravenmist
Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:15 am
#37

I've done several tests with 1 or 2 people on this in the past and haven't found the results you have. Two people doesn't make your test really any better.I'd be intrested in knowing the numbers from that test personally. Don't even bother giving the numbers from the exp, those aren't even close to being accurate in reguards to how much your actually healing.As soon as I get home I'll share some of the numbers I had from the tests I did before, or maybe I'll just wait tilI do thelarger test and post those results.. hmm.. But at any rate, the point is we really don't know and theres not enough evidence to support it either way. I haven't really worried about this issue to much but since its come up I'll be sure to do a larger test that can give us a better idea.. now I just need to find the time to do it.
Coir
Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:32 pm
#38






Kuildeous wrote:

The best way to do the test is to have two machines and two accounts. I sadly do not have that option. I will seek out someone with a lot of fatigue and try to get him in a private room to do this experiment.






Have acces to this as I mentioned above. It's how I did the tests I did. I also have RL friends with accounts and we get together and play SWG's over a LAN at my place. When we do this next I'll get more numbers then just the one extra character.



Coir
TC/Valcyn

"lol, there is an inter office bet about at SOE about how long this thread will get before we give up. "
-Rorrari
Kuildeous
Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:39 am
#39






Beery wrote:
Let's get a clear answer on this. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong if someone will do the work to prove it. I simply don't have time to do hours of in-depthtesting, so I'm limited in that sense. This is an important issue that needs clarifying, and as I said before, I really hope I am wrong, since it will allow a lot more versatility to the dance profession. At the moment though, I'm still seeing results that indicate to me that the type of dance impacts heal time, and I've yet to see anything that contradicts this, apart from somewhatvague references to tests done a while ago and baseless contradiction.





It also depends on how you prove it.


If you say, "All widgets are blue," and someone else says, "Not so; I have found a green widget," then you have to reconsider that statement. While you found two blue widgets, you now have evidence (assuming the posters here can be trusted, which is another issue) that goes contrary to the postulate that all widgets are blue.


So, to say, "You cannot heal without doing a flourish," you have to concede the point when someone says, "I have healed without a flourish." You have conceded the point, but it was difficult to convince you to do so *grin*


You can often make some pretty good inferences based on two studies. But if you come to a conclusion which is immediately shot down by someone else, then it's time to reevaluate the data.


The best way to do the test is to have two machines and two accounts. I sadly do not have that option. I will seek out someone with a lot of fatigue and try to get him in a private room to do this experiment.




RIP: Tasha Jalul - Radiant
Love Star Wars, but the few role-players I could find on the servers were outnumbered by powergamers who wanted only l337 l00t and mad skillz. I can't justify paying $15 a month to play a game by myself.
Still cares enough to interject an opinion, though.
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