Dancer Archive
Thread: Dances and combat defense
Kreistor wrote:
AllyaEcati wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
I don't care about rl or the history of dancers. SWG isn't rl, and our history has nothing to do with the StarWars universe. For me, having played a dancer for months and months, I just figure if you're a dancer and want combat defenses, pick up a combat class. Dancer's aren't combatants, pure and simple. The fact that we get ANY combat related bonuses at all is amazing, since, like someone already mentioned, it takes more to Master Doctor and they get NO combat defenses for it.
Ugh, why do people keep using other professions to make a comparisonto dancers getting defenses? OK...umm yeah in a way docs get defenses...they can heal any state (such as intimidate, poison, disease, bleeding, fire, etc.) If that's not useful in combat nowadays, then what is? I know many people that pick up that specific line of doc to help them fend off nasty cms. Why can't dancers want to have some type ofbonus to make them moreuseful in combat also? Not every dancer wants to get heavy into rp or spend all of his/her time in a cantina. Maybe some people wanta mix of a social profession with a combat.
OK...umm yeah, docs that heal themselves in combat. That's not a defense, that's an ability. What I meant by defense is 'Defense vs Ranged' or 'Defense vs Melee'. Basically, the equivalent to what Musicians and Dancers get at Master.
If you can use an ability to help in combat, that's great, that definitely makes a doc more useful. And I understand that people who play entertainers aren't always into RP. But that shouldn't mean that they should get a benefit in combat.Entertainers aren't fighters.
As it stands, as I mentioned above, Master Dancers do get a bonus to some defenses. This means that a Master Dancer / Master MTK would get more defense than just a MTK. However, we may not see it as much since doc buffs make soloing a Rancor such an easy thing to do. Maybe before the appearence of 4000+ HAM, the Master Dancer bonuses meant something.
Now, as to Dancers having an ABILITY to use during combat, this seems to be briefly touched on every so often. The ability to Dazzle and Mezmerize, etc. Is that the kind of thing you mean?
You took what I said out of context. This is a dancer forum, I really have no intrest in docs. My point about doc is that it's technicallya non combat profession, yet it has attributes that can be used in combat.
Dancer's current defenses are next to nothing. Why does it bother you so much if they get a little more? If they don't want to fight, they don't need to use them. My entertainer happens to be a fighter, by the way.
Dancers having ABILITY in combat would be cool, but that's unlikely. Being about to dazzle without dancing might be a nice distraction in battle...
AllyaEcati wrote:
You took what I said out of context. This is a dancer forum, I really have no intrest in docs. My point about doc is that it's technicallya non combat profession, yet it has attributes that can be used in combat.
Dancer's current defenses are next to nothing. Why does it bother you so much if they get a little more? If they don't want to fight, they don't need to use them. My entertainer happens to be a fighter, by the way.
Dancers having ABILITY in combat would be cool, but that's unlikely. Being about to dazzle without dancing might be a nice distraction in battle...
Sorry, I was only using docs as an example. Since doc was mentioned, I thought I'd run with it too 
As for it bothering me that Dancers get more for combat, I thoughtI made it relatively clear. I just feel that they shouldn't because they're not fighters. That's like saying someone who doesn't want to be just a Chef should also have combat bonuses. It just doesn't ... feel right. I guess that's why I may not be getting my point across.
Oh, and btw, I'm a fighter too. Fencer and CH as well as Dancer. I've never found any problem combining the two, and never thought that as both a combater and a dancer that I should be rewarded. I wanted to fight some, so I took a combat profession some.
Kreistor wrote:
AllyaEcati wrote:
You took what I said out of context. This is a dancer forum, I really have no intrest in docs. My point about doc is that it's technicallya non combat profession, yet it has attributes that can be used in combat.
Dancer's current defenses are next to nothing. Why does it bother you so much if they get a little more? If they don't want to fight, they don't need to use them. My entertainer happens to be a fighter, by the way.
Dancers having ABILITY in combat would be cool, but that's unlikely. Being about to dazzle without dancing might be a nice distraction in battle...
Sorry, I was only using docs as an example. Since doc was mentioned, I thought I'd run with it too
As for it bothering me that Dancers get more for combat, I thoughtI made it relatively clear. I just feel that they shouldn't because they're not fighters. That's like saying someone who doesn't want to be just a Chef should also have combat bonuses. It just doesn't ... feel right. I guess that's why I may not be getting my point across.
Oh, and btw, I'm a fighter too. Fencer and CH as well as Dancer. I've never found any problem combining the two, and never thought that as both a combater and a dancer that I should be rewarded. I wanted to fight some, so I took a combat profession some.
mutable72 wrote:
You're obviously not involved with the GCW. In large scale battles, base defenses and base takedowns, Dancers and Musicians have critical roles. Not every one of us stayed out of the fight, so that isn't an artistic reason to argue against it.
The abilities listed and suggested only accent other combat professions, look again, they are defense only. I respect your opinion, but you have to understand, real dancers (not grinders) are becoming rarer than Jedi. Therehas to be an insentive for people to stay Master Dancer,or your opinion will leave you alone in the cantina with no one to talk too...
You can't undermine the ideas of others on how to make the profession work, without undermining the long term survival of the played profession itself. Continue to argue the points brought up and you'll find yourself replaced by a buff bot. After all, SOE will have to replace us, if no one plays us...
I'm amazed, sometimes, at how my simple opinion can spark so many assumptions about me and my playstyle.
Actually Laylyn, I am involved in the GCW. I don't PvP since I'm not that good at it, but when there's a call for a base raid, I am there to heal and to buff my faction. I'm there to man the turrets. I'm there to give intel about the moments of the enemy when needed. So don't think that because I don't see Dancers as fighters that I'm not involved in the GCW.
And trust me, I'm fully aware of the way people are dropping the Entertainer classes. I went for the first time yesterday to visit the Mos Elsewhere memorial, and cried over the candles of the first two people that made a difference in my path as an entertainer.
Finally, I have never undermined anyone's ideas on these forums. I simply state an extremely simple opinion. In my opinion, Dancers are not combatants. Just as Weaponsmiths aren't, Chefs aren't, IDers aren't. Sure, they all contribute in the best way they can. And hopefully the Devs can find a way for all of us to contribute even more to the war when the GCW revamp comes around.
But my opinion is that giving us combat related bonuses, such as bonuses to dodge ranged or melee hits,are not in the spirit of being a Dancer. That's what I read as was being proposed in this thread in the begining, and I stayed my opinion. I in no way said that Dancers should stay as they are. Lord knows I fight with everyone else here to give us more. I'd LOVE to be involved in the GCW more. But, and again I'll say this, I don't believe COMBAT BONUSES are the way to go.
Now, one way that I CAN think of that would help us be more involved is by making the faction buff work properly. Add to that maybe BF and mind wound healing bonuses to faction members. Again, in my opinion, I say if a Dancer wants combat bonuses then they should take up a combat class.
AllyaEcati wrote:
I just don't like my character being definedby one particular profession. She hasthree, two of which are elite and very different from eachother. Right now there is a break between combat vs art (crafters, entertainers, etc) I don't think it makes sense in context to the game, or even irl. I think it would be nice to see professions be able to compliment eachother. I think giving people an additional incentive to pick two different types of professions would lead to a more diverse community and less "templates." I think it also gives people moreactivites to keep them playing and prevent them from burning out. When I get bored of fighting, I can go dance in the cantina and socialize.
Heh, believe me I agree with the 'getting bored' thing. I LOVE dancing, but staring at the same walls can be a bit dull. 
I agree, it would be nice from all professions to blend from one to another, creating so-called Hybrid profession. Of course, there are, what, 32 professions? I'd hate to be the one to figure out a good mesh for all combinations, hehe.
But I totally see what you mean. You'd think that a Weaponsmith, being around weapons all day in his work, would have some affinity with using them. Or at least have the option. And, back to the discussion of this thread, I also see what you mean about Dancers getting 'something' for the work we do.
I guess I'm just afraid of SWG degrading to another EQ. No matter what class you took in EQ, you had to fight and fight, then fight, and maybe even fight and fight. And possibly fight as well. I mean, they had crafting in it, which was great, but you only got better at it if you went out to fight. I'd hate to see people trying to figure out how to combine some Dancing in their template simply to improve their "1337 skillzz" or whatever.
I'm actually happy there's a split between combat and art. Heck, that's one of the reasons I wanted to try SWG. I just had to try this MMORPG that didn't require combat!! That's what got me interested in the first place. I'd hate to see that go away.
Kreistor wrote:
mutable72 wrote:
You're obviously not involved with the GCW. In large scale battles, base defenses and base takedowns, Dancers and Musicians have critical roles. Not every one of us stayed out of the fight, so that isn't an artistic reason to argue against it.
The abilities listed and suggested only accent other combat professions, look again, they are defense only. I respect your opinion, but you have to understand, real dancers (not grinders) are becoming rarer than Jedi. Therehas to be an insentive for people to stay Master Dancer,or your opinion will leave you alone in the cantina with no one to talk too...
You can't undermine the ideas of others on how to make the profession work, without undermining the long term survival of the played profession itself. Continue to argue the points brought up and you'll find yourself replaced by a buff bot. After all, SOE will have to replace us, if no one plays us...
I'm amazed, sometimes, at how my simple opinion can spark so many assumptions about me and my playstyle.
Actually Laylyn, I am involved in the GCW. I don't PvP since I'm not that good at it, but when there's a call for a base raid, I am there to heal and to buff my faction. I'm there to man the turrets. I'm there to give intel about the moments of the enemy when needed. So don't think that because I don't see Dancers as fighters that I'm not involved in the GCW.
And trust me, I'm fully aware of the way people are dropping the Entertainer classes. I went for the first time yesterday to visit the Mos Elsewhere memorial, and cried over the candles of the first two people that made a difference in my path as an entertainer.
Finally, I have never undermined anyone's ideas on these forums. I simply state an extremely simple opinion. In my opinion, Dancers are not combatants. Just as Weaponsmiths aren't, Chefs aren't, IDers aren't. Sure, they all contribute in the best way they can. And hopefully the Devs can find a way for all of us to contribute even more to the war when the GCW revamp comes around.
But my opinion is that giving us combat related bonuses, such as bonuses to dodge ranged or melee hits,are not in the spirit of being a Dancer. That's what I read as was being proposed in this thread in the begining, and I stayed my opinion. I in no way said that Dancers should stay as they are. Lord knows I fight with everyone else here to give us more. I'd LOVE to be involved in the GCW more. But, and again I'll say this, I don't believe COMBAT BONUSES are the way to go.
Now, one way that I CAN think of that would help us be more involved is by making the faction buff work properly. Add to that maybe BF and mind wound healing bonuses to faction members. Again, in my opinion, I say if a Dancer wants combat bonuses then they should take up a combat class.
I'm not assuming, I telling from experience. The problem with your assumtion is that people are changing, actually we have a professional exodus, thus dropping our Dancer profession because they get in their opinion nothing from the huge skillpoint investment that they make.
I'm not just a Dancer, I'm a fighter in the GCW. I'm also a guildleader of a war guild. We aren't here to debate, we're here find real solutions. In the long run, Dancer has to evolve or it will be replaced by people's secondary characters just so that they have a guarnteed mind buff.
In most large guilds, which means with the majority of affluent customers, this secondary replacement has already happened. In the lonfg run, this game is about combat and it is GCW driven, people either get something for their points or they replace us with buff bots. You are aware that Jedi already heal Battle Fatigue in others faster than we can right? Either we stand up and together as a community or we fade into the wind as nothing less than dust.
The choice is yours. Do you want to have the option of staying a dancer? If SOE replaces the profession due to low numbers, we don't. We are already being advanced on with replacement bots and a Jedi class that does our original social function better than we do....
Is it really so appauling to you that we find some small way of stating that you grace and dexterity should complement other abilities? In mass opinion, it's a viewpoint that could literally put a nail in our coffin as a profession, thus I said what I said. Again, getting into the GCW is sometimes getting into the pvp fight, it's then that you realize that unlike doctors we can't buff ourselves and we have few options availble too us. The Millionaries of the Artisian classes can buy or make the best armor, equipment and weapons, beyond the obvious money advantage, this is how they are compensated. What are you getting?
Try to look at the Big picture, most of us Dancers are extremely proud of our profession, it's why I love being a Dancer and I will never give the profession up. However, be careful before shooting down constructive ideas, as they say, Pride cometh before the Fall. Most professions that are never fixed in these boards are from members of that profession being their own worst enemy by argueing against everything for no other reason than to argue.
Wha...?
I'm trying to determine where you're getting some of these arguements.
You say that I don't see the mass exodus of Dancers, and yet I've already stated I do know, have stated an example and that I'm concerned.
You said that I've made assumptions and I've made none, only stated my opinion.
You say that I shoot down other people's ideas, and I've done nothing of the kind. In fact, I'm encouraging people come up with more of their ideas so that I may better understand their position.
You've stated that I find it appauling to think that Dancer abilities can be used to suplement other abilities, when I've stated quite plainly that I'm of the complete opposite opinion and encouraged that discussion.
On the other hand you say that this isn't a debate, yet you continue to argue with me when I'm at least trying to find common ground.
You say I come here to argue just to argue, and yet Ive been trying to come to common ground, and get shot down by you at every turn.
I'm sorry, but to me it seems that you're the one that isn't open to my opinions, not the other way around.
Since all I seem to get from this thread is negativity towards my comments, I won't be bothering to post again. Respond if you like, but I consider myself now excluded from this thread.
Kreistor wrote:
Wha...?
I'm trying to determine where you're getting some of these arguements.
You say that I don't see the mass exodus of Dancers, and yet I've already stated I do know, have stated an example and that I'm concerned.
Yet, you don't like possible solutions for astetic reasons.
You said that I've made assumptions and I've made none, only stated my opinion.
I don't see the difference between opinion and assumption...
You say that I shoot down other people's ideas, and I've done nothing of the kind. In fact, I'm encouraging people come up with more of their ideas so that I may better understand their position.
Then why not create a separate thread to contructive create a change that you not only believe would be neat for dancers, but would also help keep people in our profession.
You've stated that I find it appauling to think that Dancer abilities can be used to suplement other abilities, when I've stated quite plainly that I'm of the complete opposite opinion and encouraged that discussion.
That's fine, but a debate allows for rebuttal and it isn't always done positively. The issue here to me is that I have a profession that I love that tends to debate endlessly, while other profession do better jobs of organizing to make sure that they create compromises that the whole brings to the developers and have it written into the game. At this point the jedi have had 4 improvements, while we have yet to get our flourishes fixed.
I'm a doer in the end, not an endless debater. You voted no, while others agreed. I saw no reason for you to continue to say no into infinity.
I will do everything I can to protect you and my fellow dancers from fading into SWG history. Even if I have to snarl at you to get the ball rolling. I'm a Marine's daughter, we do that...
On the other hand you say that this isn't a debate, yet you continue to argue with me when I'm at least trying to find common ground.
I stated my idea and made sure that it balanced with the musician class. I've even posted there so they could review it since they are equal part of the cantina family and share our same issues.
You say I come here to argue just to argue, and yet Ive been trying to come to common ground, and get shot down by you at every turn.
I apologize for my rough debate style.
I'm sorry, but to me it seems that you're the one that isn't open to my opinions, not the other way around.
To the best of my knowledge, we've already had a positive reponse from the developers on this. Your opinions placed as they are, are a vote against something positive happening for the dancer and musician family as a whole...
Since all I seem to get from this thread is negativity towards my comments, I won't be bothering to post again. Respond if you like, but I consider myself now excluded from this thread.
Again, I'm sorry you took it that way...
mutable72 wrote:
NP, see you later...
Ouch... let's try not to attack each other. You were a little rough Laylyn... I know you are just really passionate about this because I have read all of your recent threads in here, but Ub-ick's opinion is not uncommon. Aylla has been posting in threads like these since I was a lurker... others are slower to warm up to the idea. *shrug* It's most likely going to happen anyway I believe.
In fact, my only real fear about how more "perks" or "functionality" could hurt us is if the Devs take the stance of letting the Prof split into three sects: bots, combat Dancers, and RP Dancers. I don't want to see it come down to all current Ent Healing become the realm of Bots while live Dancers are found in the field or at Events only, but I think that may be where we are headed.
Worse to me though would be getting nothing newor improved in functionality, perks, and healing/buffingand still having the Bots. 
So yeah, I think it's more useful for everyone to talk about what they do want and skip the things they don't, but everybody is pretty passionate about protecting and enhancing their view of the class. We don't have to stomp out all requests or oppositions to our own requests here, it most likely isn't worth it.
Debate is cool... but leave some survivors. We Social types have to stick together. 
Panthu wrote:
. . . my only real fear about how more "perks" or "functionality" could hurt us is if the Devs take the stance of letting the Prof split into three sects: bots, combat Dancers, and RP Dancers. I don't want to see it come down to all current Ent Healing become the realm of Bots while live Dancers are found in the field or at Events only, but I think that may be where we are headed.
), but have you heard something or is this an educated guess/gut feeling. It's kind of scary.
Panthu wrote:
In fact, my only real fear about how more "perks" or "functionality" could hurt us is if the Devs take the stance of letting the Prof split into three sects: bots, combat Dancers, and RP Dancers. I don't want to see it come down to all current Ent Healing become the realm of Bots while live Dancers are found in the field or at Events only, but I think that may be where we are headed.
I don't know if I really see dancers headed in that direction. I guess I would call myself a combat dancer as I spend most of my time fighting, but you can almost always find me dancing for a large group of people. I may not be in a cantina, but I live in a highly active player city. We have 8 factional bases, and I keep the defenders from losing their minds,
even if they're just running missions. We're not talking huge defense perks or anything. I'd be happy with a +15 in something like defense against knockdown, dizzy, ect. Nothing that would make dancers uber, just something to acknowledge a dancer's dexterity.
I completely agree about the bot situation. I can't stand the crowded cantinas, let alone feel like dealing with afk spam and bots taking business. I don't make my money from buffing, right now it's too much of a hassle, but I would probably dance there more if they were gone.