Dancer Archive
Thread: Do we DESERVE tips?
Dyrgo I was NOT comparing us to the girls in the bars EXCEPT to point out that the basic concept of a TIP model is quite realistic in some ways.
The fact that THEY dance topless and WE don't does not invalidate what I said. You said dancers get a Wage. MANY don't! That was the ONLY point involved in that discussion. Don't wave irrelevent red flags. It does not become you.
I'm sorry that I'm having trouble comprehending what you are saying. I'm saying that the way and reasons that many people dance can be compared to the way and reasons many real life dancers dance. I gather that you are saying that not all dancers get a wage, and you pointed out that many strip club dancers don't. Well, I guess I'm trying to figure out what venue besides strip clubs don't get a wage. If there are no others, then I fail to see how your comparison is relevant because I don't consider the Cantina a strip club. It's as simple as that, and I don't consider my point to be an irrelevant red flag.
And, by the way, making snooty comments like that does not become YOU. 
I think we CAN compare it because in our world here there are NOT theatres that hire dancers. There are no broadway shows, no Chorus lines. In other words NO options for dancers.
The world we're in, though a high tech one in one sense, actually more closely resembles the American old west or Middle Ages Europe. The Cantina model is RIGHT out a US Western except we called them Saloons. In those social environments there were few if ANY Wage paying positions for Dancers. Most of them made their living as we do, Dancing for tips.
While Some things in SWG are futuristic, the Social system that exists is rather primitive and closely parallels the examples I used above. A very basic social system where strength rules and law and order are totally in the hands of the people. If someone shoots up the bar, no police come to carry them away. There are no Wage paying jobs anywhere in our world. Everyone functions on the basis of Value for Value. I'll sell you THIS if you pay me THAT.
Its a stright Business economy. I provide a Service and will continue to do so as long as the Value I receive in tips meets my needs. If it DOESN"T then I have a choice of trying to earn more by working BETTER or LONGER. If neither of those meets my needs then I can choose another line of work.
The concept that I DESERVE tips simply because I NEED them is an abhorent one to me. When MY need become more important than YOUR ownership of your money then ownership ceases to exist and we start vying for WHOSE need is greatest and WHO should get the most. When that happens theres no purpose in my making ANY effort. Why should I? My NEED s don't change whether I work hard or just sit and chat with friends. See the problem?
Drygo wrote:However, I still think, game mechanics or not, entertainment gig availability or not,ALL of the dancers (even the afk'ers)DO deserve some base kind of monetary appreciation for their work in helping others do their jobs by healing their battle fatigue and mind wounds. You and others deserve a whole lot EXTRA for actually providing entertainment. But, all the dancers still deserve something. And, I don't think I'm going to change my mind on THAT point, so we should probably just agree to disagree.
Okay here's MY take on that.
LOTS of dancer. Finite number of tips. Some Dancers garner more tips than other Dancers that either don't work as hard or just are not cut out to be Dancers. What happens? Many Dancers decide that Dancing just doesn't cut it financially so they quit and go do something else. Take up artisan skills or become scouts.
Pretty soon: Fewer Dancers. The number of Dancers declines until the ones left DO receive enough to meet their needs.
Simple supply and demand.
IF you WANT to be a Dancer (or anything else for that matter) then get out there and WORK for it. But be aware that you ARE going to face competition. There will always be another Dancer NEXT to you thats going to work harder or more creatively and get MORE tips than you get. and THAT'S the way it should be.
Know one of the reasons I do well as far as tips? Its not JUST that I work hard to entertain the guys. Its Also that I go work at the Cantina EVERY chance I get. Even if its just for 15 or 20 minutes in the morning before class. And with RARE exceptions I ALWAYS dance at Keren. So the folks there get USED to seeing me. They get USED to my presence. I can't tell you how many girls come to Keren for a few days, dance a little and then disappear. I can't tell you their names. I don't remember them. Neither does anyone else. They are so easily replaceable becuase when one disappears they're quickly replaced by another anonymous cute dancer.
Guys like watching the Dancers and not JUST for healing. But when you see one and you know they'll prolly disappear in a day or two why even bother to say Hello?
The ones that DO stay start becoming known. Run around Naboo sometime and ask passerbys on the street Hey. Whats the name of the Dancers in the Cantina in Keren? I'll bet they remember my name and Liana, Large Marge, Chained Melody and one or two others. The Name recognition alone provide huge benefits to a Dancer in her business.
I DO look at it as my JOB in the game. My responsibility being to BE there for my customers as Often and as Long as I can.
If we go to a Wage structure of some kind where you get paid SIMPLY for BEING a dancer then what do you have? Lots of boring dancer who make NO effort because they know they don't HAVE to. They get paid for NO effort so why put out any?
When it comes down to it, there IS a financial safety net built into the game; the Mission System. That way if someone WANTS to dance but does NOT have the talent for it but wants to dance ANYWAY they can go run a few missions each day and get by.
LOTS of dancer. Finite number of tips. Some Dancers garner more tips than other Dancers that either don't work as hard or just are not cut out to be Dancers. What happens? Many Dancers decide that Dancing just doesn't cut it financially so they quit and go do something else. Take up artisan skills or become scouts.
Hopefully, Dancers aren't quitting because of tips. There are many many easier ways to make money than through tips--delivery missions being a wonderful way to raise cash.
Dancers should be dancers in SWG because they love dancing and enjoy interacting with customers, enjoy travelling the galaxy and checking out new venues, and because dancing is FUN 
It is truly a fun lifestyle!
I really agree with you Flawed. I really, really despise the underwear dancers. I think they really degrade and make the dancing profession trashy. Because of these dancers, I get constantly get rude and lewd comments. As for the tipping issue, tips are great, but not necessary. I have found that by just dancing, i generally get more tips just dancing and not saying a word. Just my 2 credits worth.
CryBeloved
Naboo
Tarquinas
Selwynn wrote:
but it would never be nothing -- if it was you would quit trying to provide the service and find something else.
Sel
Honey. Isn't THAT exactly what I've been saying?
Selwynn wrote:
So this situation really can't be comapred to the market. In the market I am never expected to provide a service for nothing. Now, there may be some negotiation on price, but it will never be ZERO.
Sel
Heheh. Better watch those superlatives and "never say never." I have, as a graphic designer, actually encountered people who expected me to provide a service for nothing. Granted, it was supposedly part ofan process which would lead to more work, still... Of course, I basically told them to call back when they had gotten their collectiveheads out of their rear-ends, in not so many words, and never heard from them again. Their loss, but it just goes to show that people will do the darndest things, and using the word "never" is a dangerous business.
I guess maybe it depends on what you look at as your actual job. From what you've said, I'm assuming that you look at your job as entertainment and entertainment only. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But, it appears that from your point of view healing mind wounds and battle fatigue hardly enter into your equation, if at all.
Yet, there are a whole slew of dancers and musicians that also look at what they do as a job. Only to them, the job involves healing mind wounds and battle fatigue as opposed to entertaining and getting to know everybody's life stories. And, if that's how someone looks at their job, then it's only logical that they would expect to get paid for the healing.
Personally, I am somewhere in the middle. I believe that my job is to heal AND entertain. I feel that the tips that I get are a measure of how well I entertain. But, there is no monetary compensation for the healing that I do. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about not getting that. But, I do feel like I, and other entertainers actually deserve something for their healing. And, when I'm talking about setting a base wage, I'm not talking about a huge amount of money. I truly believe, as you do, that the majority of the money I should be making in tips truly has to do with how well I do the entertaining portion of my job. But, I honestly don't think that 1 credit, a half a credit, or even a quarter of a credit for every point of battle fatigue that I personally heal by the patron personally watching ME is too much to ask for.
Now I do understand what you're saying. If there is a base wage and everybody who gets healed automatically gets a mere 20 credits deducted, you're afraid that they will consider that measly 20 credits as payment in full and never think of tipping. Some people will think that way. But, I tend to believe that those who do are the same ones that won't tip you anything in the first place. I think your regular patrons and the ones that actually have a sense of justice in this game, who would tip you anyway, would still be tipping you. Of course, I don't know if I'm right on that one unless I actually see this scenario happen, which I probably won't.
"I'm providing a Service. I do it to meet a Demand. If I provide a GOOD service, I will be rewarded commensurate with the Value of the service I provide. No more, no less. I don't set the value of that Service. The people buying it do."
There is no garuntee that you will be rewarded comensurate to the value of your services, so you can throw the textbook on free-martket away now. It is frequently true in fact that people do not reward entertainers with anything of value AT ALL for the service they receive. Also, in the free market when you provide a service, you WOULD set a base value for that service; it would never be ZERO. If you're set price was too high, then you'd adjust it according to the market, but it would never be nothing -- if it was you would quit trying to provide the service and find something else.
If it cost a player 10 credits every time he/she had to watch an entertainer, then I could understand the argument about tipping. But it doesn't. The game is designed so that entertainers frequently have to rely on the good will of others for their cash supply.
So this situation really can't be comapred to the market. In the market I am never expected to provide a service for nothing. Now, there may be some negotiation on price, but it will never be ZERO.
Sel
That said, that doesn't make your point about whether dancers deserve tips or not any less valid -- just bad analogy to the market in the way it was used.
Sel
During the day I normally dance casually strictly for healing. A dress or a skirt and blouse or whatever happenes to strike my fancy. I don't worry about Dancing Clothes in the normal sense. But I still spend time talking to the guys. but during the day my Primary focus is on being available for healing. In the Evening I switch over to more pure Entertainment since there are usually plenty of dancers and musicians there then.
The guys KNOW that if I'm online, the Cantina WILL be covered even if that means dropping what I'm doing somewhere else and heading straight back. Doesn't matter if I'm off planet on a shopping trip. If I leave the cantina with a dancer working and she takes off and
one of the guys send me a tell that its empty I Stop, turn around and head back.
Lot of mornings before class I drop in for 15 or 20 minutes just to check and if there's no one else there I stay as long as I can.
Maybe thats why I do well financially. They KNOW they can count on me and that I DO take my job seriously and that if I'm on I WILL make sure the Cantina is covered for healing even if that means doing it myself for as long as I'm able to stay online. They also know that in the evenings I will do my Very best to Entertain them to the limits of my ability.
All in all I'm petty satisfied with the job I do and as far as I can tell THEY are too.
Keren, I don't suppose I could in any way to convince you to migrate to Lowca. 
If only I'd started on Eclipse. Oh,the hell with it,this is a shameless bump.