Dancer Archive
Thread: Do we DESERVE tips?
AdaraX wrote:
I have huge issues with what I call 'bra dancers'. It drives me insane. It's a me thing, and it may be haughty or whatever else, but I can live with that. Me? I am a bit of a wardrober.. *koff* (anyone from SS says a word ...), so I tend to offer clothes to those still in any piece of noob gear, or dancing in bra and panties. I just think that it is extremely unprofessional to have dancers in their underwear. A variety of wardrobes is AWESOME
I find this pretty funny, because I'm the same way. First thing I do in a new town is make a beeline to the bazaar and check up on the local clothing market. 
I'm against the underwear dancers myself, but I took it on myself to offer them alternatives. As an aspiring tailor, I can make basic jackets and shorts and I tend to pick up women's clothing that I find on the bazaar as well. Bria/Dearic is my home base. I discovered early on that new entertainers were coming in and stripping down because they hated the newbie clothes.
My normal reaction when such a person appears is to kid them about being mugged and offering them some loaner clothes until the constables catch the thief who stole theirs. If they don't take me up right away, I'll send them a tell informing them that I really CAN make them some clothes if they so desire. I haven't been turned down yet.
An amusing anecdote - A newbie showed up naked and I traded her some clothes I had, while commenting that we didn't have many naked dancers in our cantina. One of the other dancers present, who had started out similarly and received some dancing clothes from me when she started, semi-saracastically commented "That's because you're always in such a hurry to cover them up!" Well, it was funny at the time. hehe I just smirked and replied something about keeping the cantina classy. 
Anyway, the point is that while some folks just get their kicks dancing naked, there's often a reason for it that can be easily remedied if you take a couple of minutes to talk to the person and find out why they're doing it.
As for the actual topic, nobody deserves tips just for doing healling. Sorry, folks. Nobody owes you a living. I get downright peeved at the fact that the entertainer forum has, until very recently, been the tipping forum. Some guy was even calling for entertainers to effectively unionize and blacklist people who didn't tip. Heaven forbid that he actually put on a show to get better tips. No, he prefered to stand there hammering out random flourishes and blakmail people into tipping him instead.
If you want tips then work the floor. Take the time to review your flourishes and create a routine with them instead of a random mishmash. Make the effort to watch what's going on around you in your venue and identify repeat customers. Anybody can say "Hi, JoeBlow, c'mon in". If, however, I see Joe and Jane talking in the corner with Joe teasing her with emotes, and I see Jane later and I say "Heya, Jane. Joe still chasing afteryou?" then more than likely I'll get a grin out of Jane and some story about what's up (or not!) between them. Follow up with a bit of banter and I've pretty much assured myself of a tip today and probably the next time I see Jane as well. Likewise, if someone shows up, disappears for a few days, and resurfaces, then a friendly "Hiya, Joe. Where you been? It's been days since you last dropped by." will get a smile,an explanation aboutJoe'srecent trip to Corellia and, more than likely, a tip. It's the personal touch, see? Plus, when strangers witness this sort of thing, it makes THEM feel good because they feel like they're at Cheers, where everybody knows your name, and they want that for themselves.
Know your regulars, make them feel special, and they'll tip you because you made them feel good. Stand around like a robot whining because the world owes you a living for your "services" and you'll get exactly what you deserve.
I somewhat agree with the original post on this thread. In real life, the dancers that get the best tips are the ones that are the best dancers and/or best able to work the crowd. So, in that respect, I do agree that it's primarily up to the individual to make larger tips by becoming better at what they do. However, at the same time, most real life dancers to get a base wage. It may not be much, but they get something for their efforts whether or not they get any tips. In SWG you solely rely on the kindness of your fellow players. So, while I believe that you can get high tips if you really work for it, it sometimes seems unfair that you don't always get a base 100 credits per hour or something. I suppose that is what the gig missions are for though. But, also, unlike real life, dancers to provide a service that is needed in the game...that is the healing of battle fatigue, that you can't get anywhere else. While it's true that I don't dance for the money unless it's a gig, and I have a pretty laid back opinion and really could care less if I dance all day and get tipped or not. Quite, frankly, in the back of my mind I do think that because we provide a necessary service, there should be some sort of base pay for it. Yes, I understand you can work the crowd and get more. But, dancing IS a profession. We may not deserve TIPS, necessarily, but we do deserve SOME kind of monetary reward for providing this necessaryservice (calling it "tips" or "wage" is merely semantics.) I guess I can turn the question around and ask, do all of the combat players DESERVE to be healed for free? I guess I don't see why they DESERVE that anymore than I DESERVE tips. *shrug*
Luckily, I don't honestly care too much if I get tipped. I enjoy dancing and that's why I do it. And, there are other ways for me to make money if I need it. But, at the same time I sympathize with those who feel they deserve to get paid for what they provide.
Drygo wrote:However, at the same time, most real life dancers to get a base wage.
Perhaps Dancers in a show or a Revue do. But the closest thing in R/L to our Cantinas that I have seen out there are the so called 'ti__y bars' out at the county lines where the single guys go on Friday or Saturday night after they got their weeks pay, in cash.
The girls there make their money ONLY through tips. And in a way they are doing the same job WE do. The guys that work manual labor jobs get pretty mind numbed by the end of the week and a few hours in the bar flirting with the girls heal THEIR 'Battle Fatigue'. I got to know some of those girls doing some work for a local Law Enforcement Agency and most of them were young girls simply trying to make a living who had no skills that would earn them as much as they make dancing. Some were college students who found they could make MUCH more dancing than they could in an office job. Some were single mothers who also had no marketable skills except dancing. Of the several dozen girls I got to know, only ONE of them admitted to any 'outside' services with the customers and she was pretty wel ostracized by the other girls. Some of them said that Dancing was the only thing that kept them OFF the streets.
So the Tip only model is pretty true to life in many ways. In the American old west the Saloon girls made THEIR livings off tips too. They didn't receive a wage. In fact MANY of them had to pay the Saloon keeper part of their earnings to have a place to work.
Drygo wrote:
But, dancing IS a profession. We may not deserve TIPS, necessarily, but we do deserve SOME kind of monetary reward for providing this necessaryservice (calling it "tips" or "wage" is merely semantics.) I guess I can turn the question around and ask, do all of the combat players DESERVE to be healed for free? I guess I don't see why they DESERVE that anymore than I DESERVE tips. *shrug*
You're talking game mechanics again. Frankly, you won't find much sympathy for that position in the player community. The battle fatigue mechanism is a way of forcing people into cantinas in order to make us, the entertainers, useful. It's viewed as a neccesary evil by most and as downright evil by many. It's only a neccesary service because the devs MADE it a neccesary service. Every other kind of healing can be done out in the field, with or without a healer. Only battle fatigue requires a player to interrupt his play time to go all the way into town and sit for an indeterminate amount of time in place that, given a choice, he'd probably rather not be in.
You won't find many player who will say that we automatically deserve money for holding them captive to a game mechanic.
Perhaps Dancers in a show or a Revue do. But the closest thing in R/L to our Cantinas that I have seen out there are the so called 'ti__y bars' out at the county lines where the single guys go on Friday or Saturday night after they got their weeks pay, in cash.
This is the thing, you can't in one post admonish the girls who dance in their underwear because it is not proper or its sleezy and call dance an artform, and then in another post compare all of us dancers to workers in a ti__y bar. We all play our character differently. Some people do want to pretend they're strippers or prostitutes and make more money that way. That's not me, but that's fine with me. Some of us, on the other hand, consider our professions to be more like that of performers in a show or Revue as you described. And, if you are playing one of those types of dancers, then it only makes logical sense that you get paid for it and not just rely solely on tips.
You're talking game mechanics again. Frankly, you won't find much sympathy for that position in the player community. The battle fatigue mechanism is a way of forcing people into cantinas in order to make us, the entertainers, useful. It's viewed as a neccesary evil by most and as downright evil by many. It's only a neccesary service because the devs MADE it a neccesary service. Every other kind of healing can be done out in the field, with or without a healer. Only battle fatigue requires a player to interrupt his play time to go all the way into town and sit for an indeterminate amount of time in place that, given a choice, he'd probably rather not be in.
You won't find many player who will say that we automatically deserve money for holding them captive to a game mechanic.
Well, first of all, I've never based my opinions on the support I do or do not get from others. 
But, beyond that, I disagree for the most part. Yes, it is game mechanics. But, such as it is, that is how the SWG Universe works. You may or may not like it, but that's how it is. We provide a completely necessary service to many players, and I personally don't see why we shouldn't get paid for it. I also think that medics should get paid for their services. Should Tailors never expect money for the shirts they make? Should architects never expect money for the houses they build? Should Chefs never expect money for the food they make? It's all game mechanics. It's all about services that are provided by one player for another. And, I'm not sure I understand the difference when it comes to healing battle fatigue. I suppose that onemight be able to argue that most services are optional. That may be true. It's optional whether or not I want to buy a house. But, you know what? It's also optional whether or notsomebody else wants to do combat and advancein their field of choice. If they want to then they need me. It's a choice they made. Just like as a dancer, I feel that I NEED new clothes. And, I NEED more training. As such, I will always pay a tailor for my clothes and I will always tip somebody who trains me. I made choices that require their services. Others made choice that require mine. I don't think that everything in this game should be expected to be free. Granted, as I said in an earlier post, I never personally ask for tips and never get angry when somebody doesn't give me one. I'm generally not even thinking about it. But, it does kind of make me angry that for some reason some playerscan arbitrarily decide that we don't DESERVE tips. Why? Whois anyone to make a decision like that? Game mechanics or not, I provide aneededservice, and I simply don't understand why I, personally, don't deserveto be paid for it.
And, as a side note, I personallywould love it if Battle Fatigue could be healed out in the field in camps, but unfortunately that's not the case. Although, I'm still not sure what difference it makes that just because you have to travel to a Cantina,that makes my services any less valuable to somebody who needs them.
You know, I see a lot of posts in here in which people sniff or turn up their noses at private dances, flirtation and the like, claiming people who perform such acts have "no self-respect" or othersuch nonsense.
I would like to present an alternate viewpoint. It is my view that such a prudish approach to sexual mores and so forth is merely a product of most people's American upbringing, in which sex and all aspects thereofare either stigmatized as naughty, dirty and the like, or its importance overinflated to ridiculous proportions, making people have unrealistic sexual expectations and treat it like some sort of "sacred" experience.
Those of us with experience on the matter, no matter how trivial, know that both of the above are a lot of crap. By carring on with the hand-wringing Woody Allen and/or Pollyanna approach to sexual dancing as being something to get all nervous and neurotic about and/or impose some judgment about its immorality thereupon, you perpetuate the cycle of immaturity. Your views I consider just as immature as the young boys who come into cantinas and fling epithets at you while expecting you to fellate them on a whim.
Now, I am of course a gentleman about the matter. I am not forward with a dancer about an erotic routine or action of some sort, and I don't go up to strangers and ask about it, and I have little respect for those who do. However, engaging in such dances and further with people you know and speak to frequently should not be cause for such uptight disdain as I see everywhere in this forum.
Sex and anything related thereto has never been "disrespectful" to onesself to engage in. You shouldn't stigmatize it as such, regardless of the medium upon which erotica is perpetuated.
Base wage = gig missions
Tips = volunturay contribution to demonstrate appreciation
The fact that THEY dance topless and WE don't does not invalidate what I said. You said dancers get a Wage. MANY don't! That was the ONLY point involved in that discussion. Don't wave irrelevent red flags. It does not become you.
I see nothing whatsoever wrong with Erotic Dancing as long as it is understood that Erotic Dancing is not a promise of something...more. I'm a Dancer. Not a ...Provider of Sexual Services.
As far as THAT goes, if some of the girls want to supplement their income that way I have no problem with it at all EXCEPT when they use the Cantina as their place of business. If they want to take a man out to their house or his house or some other private place and provide Services for hire, more power to them. As in all things, discretion goes a long way. Thats an area where I suspect the girls being layed by guys would be at a serious disadvantage. Laugh!!!
I DO object to the use of the Cantina as a place to provide such Services in that it unfairly labels ALL the Dancers as potential providers and makes it MUCH harder to handle the guys and keep them from getting unruly.
With that ONE caveat what a girl does in the game is HER business and no one else's and if someone is looking for such Services and I know of a Provider I will certainly put them in touch with each other with NO hesitation.
I don't disagree with you, Zenorum, but be sure to draw lines between not being erotic or sexual and being plain sleezy.I do not believe it is necessary to dance in my underwear in order to be erotic, sexual or flirtatous. I do not believe it is necessary to be graphic or pornographic with comments to have an air of erotica or sexuality.
I guess what I'm saying is there is a line between flirtatious, erotic behavior and an aspiring 900 number operator, and that is where my issues lie.
Personally, if someone wants to do that sort of RP, it's up to them, but I am not going to group with them, when I can avoid it, or help them out to the extent I would others. Like someone else, I have given away more clothes than I can count to newbie dancers, or even higher levels who simply haven't found or purchased some of the higher level clothing, because they enjoy having something even nicer than their every day garb, and I happen to make good tips. <g> Not to mention liking..erm.. loving having a vast wardrobe
Long term, I see this sort of thing sorting itself out as there are more and more player venues available. If someone wants to have a more lewd atmosphere, they can create a club specifically to that purpose. If I want to dance somewhere that is more erotic, and less blatant, I can certainly find places that are, and spend my time there. While there are few player cantinas available yet, and everyone is sort of thrown together in the public arena, you're more likely to see these sorts of disagreements, I think.
FlawedDiamond,
I was just explaining that you are using economic terms in incorrect ways. If a couple people are standing next to you, and you put out a great show. Both guys get the same benefit, regardless of what they pay, then it IS a PUBLIC good. That is how the term public good is defined. Since you dont negotiate PRIOR to performing the service, it is NOT the free market (another econ term).
Sorry to get technical, but I just hear too many call-in's to the Rush Limbaugh or CSPAN radio using the term free market in incorrect ways; so I feel I need to point it out.
Mal
Malleable wrote:FlawedDiamond,
I was just explaining that you are using economic terms in incorrect ways. If a couple people are standing next to you, and you put out a great show. Both guys get the same benefit, regardless of what they pay, then it IS a PUBLIC good. That is how the term public good is defined. Since you dont negotiate PRIOR to performing the service, it is NOT the free market (another econ term).
Sorry to get technical, but I just hear too many call-in's to the Rush Limbaugh or CSPAN radio using the term free market in incorrect ways; so I feel I need to point it out.
Mal
Okay sorry I hear the term Public Good and didn't realize you were using it in the technical economics sense. Thought it was the old saw about how everyone works for the Common Good just phrased differently. And THAT term sends shivers up my spine since it takes your work away from YOU and GIVES it to others. My apologies.
But I DO make a free choice in it. If my work results in an income that I feel is commensurate with the amount of work I do then I continue dancing. If it does not then I have a choice of trying to work Harder or Better or of finding another line of work.
Basic principle of my original post still applies. I choose whether I will Provide the Service and the Consumer decides what that service is worth.