Dancer Archive
Thread: Focus: Inspiration Buffs
NJ62 wrote:
I like the idea of inspiration buffs as a function of entertainer. I think they are far better than the current system where entertainers are just a fraction of a full set of buffs.
However, the core problems of the profession remain, most of which stem from a problematic passive services system. Buff-bots, inability to charge for services - these could be remedied by an active system. To give us a new function but leave alone problematic mechanics is not much of a benefit to us.
It's not even bandaiding the problem. It's ignoring it.
Agreed. It seems a lot of people have this opinion, too - they like the idea, but the execution needs work.
This change in buffing really does offer quite an opportunity to not only end AFK, but also provide a way for Entertainers to request payment for their services in a secure way.
The question is, will anyone working on this game actually take the feedback and change their design. They seem set on the completely passive method for buffing (although they do directly contradict themselves on that matter).
I'd just like to really see these buffs in action, and see how much people like them, are willing to pay for them, and so on.
Have an options setting similar to /bandflo on/off, say, /passivebuff on/off. If you turn it on, you can passive buff people. If you turn it off, you get a popup window.
My point here is about people being able to "steal" a buff from me without me even knowing it -- up to and including jerks on my /ignore list who are there because they were obnoxious to me. I don't mind healing them because I have no choice (though I would prefer not to do that either, but I am used to it enough that I can live with it) but I do mind giving them a free buff on top of it.
I want a way short of /deny and/or /stopdance to continue dancing and even healing but NOT buff a person if I don't want to. This should be under my control.
C
Chessack wrote:
For those who don't want to click, how about this --
Have an options setting similar to /bandflo on/off, say, /passivebuff on/off. If you turn it on, you can passive buff people. If you turn it off, you get a popup window.
My point here is about people being able to "steal" a buff from me without me even knowing it -- up to and including jerks on my /ignore list who are there because they were obnoxious to me. I don't mind healing them because I have no choice (though I would prefer not to do that either, but I am used to it enough that I can live with it) but I do mind giving them a free buff on top of it.
I want a way short of /deny and/or /stopdance to continue dancing and even healing but NOT buff a person if I don't want to. This should be under my control.
C
The problem with flipping a switch, is that afk-ers will be able to flip passive buffing on. There will be no "choice" to flip it off, because if you do, someone will find a bot or live player with passive buffing on.
It's kind of like the argument that those who don't like the vendor searching system do not have to turn on bazaar searching - and they can choose themselves right out of any business if everyone else uses the bazaar searching feature.
I don't see why entertaining needs to be different than any other service in the game. With any other service you communicate with someone, negotiate a price, and obtain the service. With entertaining, you don't have to communicate, don't have to pay, and that leads to a sense of entitlement and disrespect.
Hmm... I have been thinking about this a bit.
One thing people seem split on is passive/active.
Another thing is that the difference between a novice entertainer and a full master is time... and nothing else. And the time differential is not all that big, as I understand it -- 5 or 10 minutes vs. 1 minute. That means in terms of skill boxes, you aren't getting much of an increase per box.
I have a solution that may fix this problem AND solve the "empty skill branch" problem in the elite trees.
Have TECHINQUES lines reduce the amount of time it takes. Ents do not get tech, so keep it at 5 minutes through the base prof. Give novice dancers/musicians -30 seconds, then -30 seconds buff time per box you go up. You are getting faster with the techniques, all fine.
Then have the entertainer healing boxes and the formerly mind wound healing boxes give you something else -- buff variety. You'd need 6 buffs for entertainer (1 at novice, 4 for the boxes, and 1 special one at master), and you'd then need maybe 6 for dancer/musician (1 at novice, 1 for each box, and 1 special one at master). So for example:
Novice entertainer -- buffs base artisan experimentation
Ent Heal 1 - buffs medical crafting
Ent Heal 2 - buffs (general) combat xp
Ent Heal 3 - buffs medical healing
Ent Heal 4 - buffs harvesting (or scouting xp perhaps)
Master Ent - buffs survival xp
(Notice, Ents are buffing the base profs because they are a base prof.)
Novice Dancer/Musician - Buffs faction points
Dance/Music Enhancements 1 - buffs melee combat xp types (fencer, unarmed, etc).
Dance/Music Enhancements 2 - buffs ranged combat xp types
Dance/Music Enhancements 3 - buffs medical xp types (BE, Doc, CM)
Dance/Music Enhancements 4 - buffs elite crafting experimentation types (architect, chef, etc)
Master Dance/Music - buffs DNA sampling, crafting XP gain, etc.
Now we have our skill line back, it is useful, and a master is able to give all the possible buffs. A lower character can give a perfectly fine buff in the areas they are trained in, but not in the areas they aren't.
By the end you will have us able to buff and be useful to every profession, and this also fixes the problem of the missing skill line -- it adds content (technique remains as it has been the line concerned with the time of the buff) and this one gives us new things to buff each time we level.
I think this or something like it would work and would alleviate the "a novice is as good as I am, only slower" problem.
I'll add also... I'd like to see a 3rd type of entertainer XP -- Entertainment Enhancement XP. When you give a buff, you get that instead of heal XP. This cuts the amount of healing XP we need in half, gives us a new kind of XP, and lets us actually gain something from buffing (unlike now where you just get a hundred or so healing XP, which is utterly irrelevent when you need hundreds of thousands to master).
C
Chessack wrote:
I am going to be a bad forumie and cross-post from the other thread, to make sure everyone sees this, because I think it will solve a number of problems (NOT including the passive/active one, but that is a problem I will work on later):
Hmm... I have been thinking about this a bit.
One thing people seem split on is passive/active.
People aren't split. I'd say almost everyone (at least the entertainers) hatethe idea of this being passive. It just opens the door to AFK play.
Another thing is that the difference between a novice entertainer and a full master is time... and nothing else. And the time differential is not all that big, as I understand it -- 5 or 10 minutes vs. 1 minute. That means in terms of skill boxes, you aren't getting much of an increase per box.
I have a solution that may fix this problem AND solve the "empty skill branch" problem in the elite trees.
Have TECHINQUES lines reduce the amount of time it takes. Ents do not get tech, so keep it at 5 minutes through the base prof. Give novice dancers/musicians -30 seconds, then -30 seconds buff time per box you go up. You are getting faster with the techniques, all fine.
Adding this to the teqnique line is a fine idea. I'd rather a Master Musician be able to buff better than a Novice Musician.
BUT regular entertainers (non-master entertainers or non novice dancers or musicians) should not be able to inspire. Mainly because people will drop their previous buff bot stats from master dancer or musician all the way down to Novice Entertainer and then become buff bots. This will also increase the amount of buff bots you will see in cantinas.
Then have the entertainer healing boxes and the formerly mind wound healing boxes give you something else -- buff variety. You'd need 6 buffs for entertainer (1 at novice, 4 for the boxes, and 1 special one at master), and you'd then need maybe 6 for dancer/musician (1 at novice, 1 for each box, and 1 special one at master). So for example:
Novice entertainer -- buffs base artisan experimentation
Ent Heal 1 - buffs medical crafting
Ent Heal 2 - buffs (general) combat xp
Ent Heal 3 - buffs medical healing
Ent Heal 4 - buffs harvesting (or scouting xp perhaps)
Master Ent - buffs survival xp
I don't really like this getting split up like this. If anything, just change the time it takes to give the buff as you go up.
(Notice, Ents are buffing the base profs because they are a base prof.)
Novice Dancer/Musician - Buffs faction points
Dance/Music Enhancements 1 - buffs melee combat xp types (fencer, unarmed, etc).
Dance/Music Enhancements 2 - buffs ranged combat xp types
Dance/Music Enhancements 3 - buffs medical xp types (BE, Doc, CM)
Dance/Music Enhancements 4 - buffs elite crafting experimentation types (architect, chef, etc)
Master Dance/Music - buffs DNA sampling, crafting XP gain, etc.
Now we have our skill line back, it is useful, and a master is able to give all the possible buffs. A lower character can give a perfectly fine buff in the areas they are trained in, but not in the areas they aren't.
By the end you will have us able to buff and be useful to every profession, and this also fixes the problem of the missing skill line -- it adds content (technique remains as it has been the line concerned with the time of the buff) and this one gives us new things to buff each time we level.
I think this or something like it would work and would alleviate the "a novice is as good as I am, only slower" problem.
I'll add also... I'd like to see a 3rd type of entertainer XP -- Entertainment Enhancement XP. When you give a buff, you get that instead of heal XP. This cuts the amount of healing XP we need in half, gives us a new kind of XP, and lets us actually gain something from buffing (unlike now where you just get a hundred or so healing XP, which is utterly irrelevent when you need hundreds of thousands to master).
That is a good idea, but at the same time worrisome that it may lead to a new version of "tumblers". Basically people getting paid to be buffed over and over again.
Chessack wrote:
I am going to be a bad forumie and cross-post from the other thread, to make sure everyone sees this, because I think it will solve a number of problems (NOT including the passive/active one, but that is a problem I will work on later):
Hmm... I have been thinking about this a bit.
One thing people seem split on is passive/active.
Another thing is that the difference between a novice entertainer and a full master is time... and nothing else. And the time differential is not all that big, as I understand it -- 5 or 10 minutes vs. 1 minute. That means in terms of skill boxes, you aren't getting much of an increase per box.
I have a solution that may fix this problem AND solve the "empty skill branch" problem in the elite trees.
Have TECHINQUES lines reduce the amount of time it takes. Ents do not get tech, so keep it at 5 minutes through the base prof. Give novice dancers/musicians -30 seconds, then -30 seconds buff time per box you go up. You are getting faster with the techniques, all fine.
Then have the entertainer healing boxes and the formerly mind wound healing boxes give you something else -- buff variety. You'd need 6 buffs for entertainer (1 at novice, 4 for the boxes, and 1 special one at master), and you'd then need maybe 6 for dancer/musician (1 at novice, 1 for each box, and 1 special one at master). So for example:
Novice entertainer -- buffs base artisan experimentation
Ent Heal 1 - buffs medical crafting
Ent Heal 2 - buffs (general) combat xp
Ent Heal 3 - buffs medical healing
Ent Heal 4 - buffs harvesting (or scouting xp perhaps)
Master Ent - buffs survival xp
(Notice, Ents are buffing the base profs because they are a base prof.)
Novice Dancer/Musician - Buffs faction points
Dance/Music Enhancements 1 - buffs melee combat xp types (fencer, unarmed, etc).
Dance/Music Enhancements 2 - buffs ranged combat xp types
Dance/Music Enhancements 3 - buffs medical xp types (BE, Doc, CM)
Dance/Music Enhancements 4 - buffs elite crafting experimentation types (architect, chef, etc)
Master Dance/Music - buffs DNA sampling, crafting XP gain, etc.
Now we have our skill line back, it is useful, and a master is able to give all the possible buffs. A lower character can give a perfectly fine buff in the areas they are trained in, but not in the areas they aren't.
By the end you will have us able to buff and be useful to every profession, and this also fixes the problem of the missing skill line -- it adds content (technique remains as it has been the line concerned with the time of the buff) and this one gives us new things to buff each time we level.
I think this or something like it would work and would alleviate the "a novice is as good as I am, only slower" problem.
I'll add also... I'd like to see a 3rd type of entertainer XP -- Entertainment Enhancement XP. When you give a buff, you get that instead of heal XP. This cuts the amount of healing XP we need in half, gives us a new kind of XP, and lets us actually gain something from buffing (unlike now where you just get a hundred or so healing XP, which is utterly irrelevent when you need hundreds of thousands to master).
C
LOL we're on the same page. I composed the following and was reading the rest of the posts before I put it up.
~~~
It's a step in the right direction and Inspirational Buffs fit perfectly within Entertainer. I have mixed thoughts about the buffs having the same effect from novice to master and self buffing.
Consider a newbie logs in for the first time and grinds away with just novice brawler until someone helps them out and suggests taking novice medic and novice entertainer to heal themselves. The bad part? This player no longer needs the services of another entertainer for buffs until they've used up 220 skill points and come to the decision to drop entertainer of medic. The good part? This newbie player will try a profession they would never have considered before and they may even come to enjoy it. It will also mean a lot more entertainers in the cantina.
If the newbie player belongs to a PA with a member who can macro an alt... I just don't want to go there. No, not again.
*deep breath*
The Inspirational Buffs cover a broad range of abilities and hopefully it will be expanded. What I would suggest is kinda like Mauve's suggestion. Elite Entertainers can target and fine tune Inspirational buffs for certain abilities to get a greater bonus for that ability then the standard generic buff.
Generic inspirational buffs can remain passive but the targeted inspirational buffs should require and action on the part of the Entertainer to initiate. I would also suggest the ability for targeted inspirational buffs be split between Musician and Dancer and not duplicated between the two professions.
The skill for targeted inspirational buffs can also replace the wound healing tree (Although it still doesn't fill the gap in Entertainer and I still like the idea of Dancers and Musicians getting some sort of Espionage skill to tie us more into the galactic civil war ).
We rejected throughly the idea behind pop ups last year. And now with this new buff and the direction it would seem the devs have in mind with it.(100% passive other then /watch /listen) I see a lot of people asking for something that would appear to go against where and what the Devs see us as right now, and where they are trying to move us to.
That being said they do need to deal with the AFK problem that is rampant in this game and NOT just a problem for Entertainers.
On to the positive....
I was honestly shocked that they even bothered to work on this and announce it during the CU. Sure it won't be put in until post CU but I had expected months to pass before we even had anything in concept. +100 to Dev faction(-2354 Dev Faction remaining)
I'm not a real big fan of the total passive aspect but As I expected I believe they are resetting us back to when the game started and hopefully from there will try and build on us some more. So IF something was done to fix AFK I honestly wouldn't mind the passive aspect to much. If I don't make tips with the new system for healing and buffing it won't be to much different from where we have been for a very long time.
I like the different buffs, with the changes in the CU I think that the +10% XP buff will become NEEDED. For anyone grinding.(which is why AFK Jedi and some bots will still remain.)
I think there needs to be post XP gain buffs so that they still have a reason to see us.(BF honestly ISN'T a reason with how little it affects anything with the new itemless healing)
I also wouldn't mind seeing the Base Buff we give be those 3 buffs and then different buffs depending on which dance/song we perform.
I think any suggestions for more buffs should be as group centered as we can. Like +10% to SL group affecting abilities, +10% to the Rangers Bonus for group Harvesting, Maybe a boost to someones Con Level(So if normal your a level 30 maybe it bumps you up to level 40 while not changing your abilities any it would allow you to pull much tougher missions, Which you of course would most likely need to group to do), ect.
Why do I want group centered buffs for the most part ? Because the CU makes it so that people will want/need groups, and anyone still grinding will NEED/want the XP buff and I'm extremely hopeful that cantinas can return to the social hub they once were. THE place to find a group.
I would love to see Docs be able to heal INSIDE the cantina, Although just outside the cantina works as well. I would also love to see a few other things move near or in to the back rooms like a crafting station. And a Cantina Manager for a steady payment for ATK entertainers would be great something that could scale with the level of the entertainer.
So to recap:
I hate the idea of Pop ups.
AFK needs something done.
I'm hoping this helps turn the cantina into the place to find groups. aka social Hub.
+10% xp gain semi useful for people grinding or changing templates, Also is just low enough that honestly people would make more XP just spending the time it takes to get to us and get the buff, in spending that time just killing more stuff. And not useful at all to anyone that has their template complete.
FP bonus useful again only sort of, as noted above +10% it's more worthwhile for them to just stay out killing stuff.
Crafting Bonus, They removed losing your items when you fail... So while a step in the right direction I'm unsure how useful it will honestly be. While I think that bonus to experimentation would be far to powerful.
bostonbaka wrote:
Honestly these buffs sound absoulutely retarded. Im a combat proffession and depend on mind buffs for PvP and PvE. I like talking to my dancer friends while I get ready to go out. This has taken away what the devs like to use as a excuse in the new system the "MMORPG" style of play since anyone can listen/watch and recieve the buff. My suggestion would to leave the mind buffs as they were. I dont understand why they (devs) are developing an entirely new system for the dancer/musician. They have taken out mind wounds and battlefatigue and its not fair to you guys.
Battlefatigue is still in the game although no one has seen it as far as I know.
I don't know why the Devs changed a lot of things. No, Devs are probably not at fault on this one. The SOE Marketing machine probably shoved it down their throats. To me, the combat upgrade as it stands is a thinly veiled attempt to steal customers away from WoW and Lineage 1 & 2 by mimicking them.
Much like the Coca-Cola Company trying to steal Pepsi customers with New Coke after their market share declined andwe all know what a huge success that was. I think I was about 8 years old and I still remember it. Even the Coca-Cola Company can't put enough positive spin on their story
From: http://www2.coca-cola.com/heritage/cokelore_newcoke.html
"We set out to change the dynamics of sugar colas in the United States, and we did exactly that -- albeit not in the way we had planned," then chairman and chief executive officer Roberto Goizueta said in 1995 at a special employee event honoring the 10-year anniversary of "new Coke."
Mr. Goizueta received a letter addressed to "Chief Dodo, The Coca-Cola Company." He often said he was more upset that it was actually delivered to him!
Another person wrote to him asking for his autograph -- because, in years to come, the signature of "one of the dumbest executives in American business history" would be worth a fortune.
It's a big risk, to mimic competitor(s) in the slightest way as the Coca-Cola Company found out. I wonder if history is repeating itself. Maybe more so than we think. The change in the Coke formula sparked a renewed interest in the old formula. Now, you can see the same renewed interestin the posts of the players here regarding the old combat system.
menyou wrote:
Viper, I think we're all agreed this system should use Setperform or an interface to activate the buffs. Being as it's a new system I'm sure Esharra can push for it to be an active system and have indicaters setup so the watcher doesn't need to /stopwatch to get the buff ( it pops up in the buff window and the watcher can see the buff duration increase by highlighting it ) and the buffer could get a small timer popup so they know the buff duration. Would just need to be a buff progress window with a value showing the length of the buff you've given so far.
Not ALL of us agree that we need a /setperform or interface to activate the buffs. I have been a live dancer since about 2 weeks after release of the game and I prefer the buff to be passive.