Dancer Archive
Thread: We have met the enemy and they are US. Back to our Roots.
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NewJedi
Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:32 am
#27
This isa thought-provoking thread. I guess I opt for "all of the above." Like the original poster, I have most fun in this profession when I perform and schmooze with the audience. I don't rely on it heavily for income; I have combat skills for that, but I am glad it's a source of income for those who need it. On the other hand, I find that AFKers and buffbots take a lot of the fun out of the entertaining game. What's the point of schmoozing it up in the Mos Eisley cantina if half the conversation is canned buffbot talk? Even if the AFK-chat-screening function screens out some of that, it's still not as fun to play when half your band is effectively dead to the world.
Groovymarlin
Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:54 pm
#28
PoetDancer wrote:
What about Lyrical2, Exotic3 and 4, and enhanced effects? Aren't those good enough reasons to become a master dancer?
Lyrical2: broken (base dance can't be viewed by patrons)
Exotic3: only has one flourish (flo1 and flo3 virtually the same, flo2 does nothing, flo4-8 same turn andavailable at exotic)
Exotic4: only has two flourishes (flo1 unique, flo2 and 3 same, flo4 same as above)
So in my opinion only, no. What is worth being a master dancer? The ability to heal mind wounds in seconds and battle fatigue of staggering proportions in about a minute. The ability to give up to a 125% mind buff.
I'd like the dances and effects mentioned above to be enough reason, but until they're fixed I'm sorry, they're not.
Drygo
Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:09 am
#29
Blamj wrote:
Face it, entertainer started as a social profession and now has transformed into a buff-bot profession. If you don't like it, go dance in a player cantina or in the wilderness
No.
Blamj
Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:37 pm
#30
Drygo wrote:
Blamj wrote:
Face it, entertainer started as a social profession and now has transformed into a buff-bot profession. If you don't like it, go dance in a player cantina or in the wilderness
No.
Thank god your quiting, nice to have negative people quit
Osawa_Scylla
Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:42 pm
#31
I find your attitude of "Let the Buff Bot win" to be far more negative than his attitude of "No, I'm not going to vacate the cantinas for the soulless leeches that are ruining this profession."
Osawa
DanceRulez
Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:39 pm
#32
First off I want to say that I'm glad you're enjoying the dancer class in your own way, Euclase. We all find our own niche in the entertainer field. If you don't want to give heals or buffs and just stick with finding new and unique ways of using your skills and socializing to be the best entertainer you can be, that's great. That's your prerogative, and I support you in that playstyle that you enjoy. However I find it neither constructive nor even accurate to try to say that there is only one "true" way to be an entertainer and even insulting to try to divide our neglected community into "real entertainers" and "whiners".
To start with I believe your initial presumption about whether our role is to be an entertainer or a buffer/healer is as incorrect as asking whether a doctor's role is to be a healer, buffer, or crafter. The answer is, any combination of the above. Now via game mechanics our role is primarily that of healer and buffer, just as the doctor's is a roughly equal mix of all three. Without game mechanics we likely would not exist at all. Why should the developers spend time designing and coding professions that are pure "fluff" - that add only a little flavor or atmosphere to the game? They could just as easily do that with NPC bands or dancers. Even if they did add these professions, what players would want to give up a significant amount of their skill points to pursue them with no other reward than some aesthetic or social gameplay and the hope of the occasional tip? To this latter point I do concede that there would be some who would take this path because it would appeal to their playstyle, but I bet it would be a very small number indeed - a number hardly worthy of dev support much less improvements such as new songs, dances, effects, etc.
It is this point of our game mechanic that Warryyr spoke about. If we all simply give up our game mechanic to the bots even if it's for some loftier goal of being an "ideal" entertainer, then many of us fear, and I think rightfully, that we may lose not only our game mechanic, but perhaps our professions altogether for the reasons I mentioned above. By letting the devs and others know of our problems and discontents, and fighting for our viability in the game as an important and respected SWG profession, we're trying to make an effort to improve our role in the game, the desirability of our role, and even the game as a whole by our presence in it and contribution to it. If you are happy with the profession the way it is, and do not want to participate in our efforts to improve our place in the game or even to participate in all aspects of the profession, that's your right and choice, and I respect you for it. Keep in mind however, that what we do is meant to benefit not only those of us trying to carry on the fight but all of us. With added, or at least properly maintained, purpose in the game, we would hope to attract more people to our profession and also give reason for the devs to conitinue adding content for us such as new music, dances, props, flourishes or whatever, and this will enhance your playstyle as well, Euclase, to give you more tools to do what you like to do best. You should consider that, before you label any of us whiners.
To those of you who say let the bots have the static cantinas, I would suggest this additional argument for continuing the fight. To master Entertainer, Musician, or Dance it is a requirement to gain healing XP and apprenticeship points. While it is possible to earn both of these to some degree in other places including player cantinas, the fact is that NPC cantinas especially in the major hub cities such as Coronet or Theed are the some of the best places that novice players can go to train other ents and have a reasonably steady source of healing XP. To just leave these places to the bots, it creates an unpleasant or disappointing atmosphere which would frustrate or discourage new players from really discovering what this profession is about or even giving it a chance. They might choose between giving it up or just becoming another bot themselves. I consider myself lucky that I leveled in an active Theed cantina filled with lively entertainers and customers coming and going, and AFK'ers were a rarity, not the rule (in fact many of us did not even realize that total macroing was possible or if we did, we didn't know or care how). It was a lot of fun, and I learned a lot about the game that way. I don't know if any new ents can say the same anymore. If not for ourselves, then we should reclaim the cantinas for the new entertainers to allow them to have the experience that some of us had when we were new, or perhaps for the experience that we didn't get to have.
Further I find that I disagree with you on your characterization of SOE somewhat. While I agree 100% that SOE has been far too reticent about our issues and problems, I have never seen any dev or other offical statement from an SOE representative that either encourages or endorses bots or AFK'ing for that matter. In fact, all I have seen are official comments to the contrary - that they think that AFK'ing is bad for the game or that it does detract from the playing experience. I do find it very regrettable that they continue to stop short of calling it an outright exploit or an invalid playstyle, but I continue to hope, as perhaps others of us do, that by continuing to speak out about how it affects us or our playstyle, that it will serve to urge the devs to make dealing with it more of a priority. To this end we have gotten at least one proposal from TH, and while it may not be the best idea, it hopefully represents either a change of thinking on their part, or at least a signal that they are ready to begin working on the problem. My personal opinion is that the real problem here is that they created a macroing system that was a little too useful, and in the hands of a very creative playerbase has been turned into something of a monster that they have not been able to control. It might take a significant redesign of the system itself to fix it because by staying within the confines of the system they have set in place, it's difficult for them to justify labeling those who use it as exploiters.
Then there are the unfortunate recent incidents of CSR's rewarding bots with badges which has happened once or maybe twice. Even then, in response to our outcry about one such incident, Pex made a very clear post that SOE does not wish to encourage AFK play and does not think that bots or AFK characters are examples to the profession and should not receive such badges (I don't remember the exact words here, but his post can be referred to on the Entertainer forum). The only thing I think was unfortunate about his post was that I think he should have made a point of saying that an improperly awarded badge would be revoked. I think the CSR's do what they can with guidelines established by SOE which currently permit AFK macros so there is little or nothing they can do to prevent it, and at the same time they are required to give some protections to the controllers of those AFK bots if they decide to man the keyboard long enough to register a complaint. I think is is a tough job they have trying to deal with delicate matters when both sides have strong feelings about an issue and all they can do is interpret or enforce the rules they have whether they personally agree with them or not. I even think they will make mistakes sometimes, and it is even possible that they might decide to pursue their own agenda which could be in our favor or not. If we think they are unfair to us, we can report it to SOE and let them deal with it. It can happen that SOE can decide that an action by a CSR was unjustified as in the case of this recent badge, yet that result might not have come about if we had just shrugged our shoulders and let the bot have it.
Anyway, while I encourage different forms of play within our community, I don't think that any one active method is the "only" or "correct" way to play. I also don't see any reason why we should just give up anything to the bots or why we should just "be happy and enjoy what we've got" if we really feel that there is something wrong that needs to be changed or even improved. I personally feel that our playstyle is at stake here, and that's why I will do what I can to make my bad experiences known, suggest improvements, and support others who do the same.
To start with I believe your initial presumption about whether our role is to be an entertainer or a buffer/healer is as incorrect as asking whether a doctor's role is to be a healer, buffer, or crafter. The answer is, any combination of the above. Now via game mechanics our role is primarily that of healer and buffer, just as the doctor's is a roughly equal mix of all three. Without game mechanics we likely would not exist at all. Why should the developers spend time designing and coding professions that are pure "fluff" - that add only a little flavor or atmosphere to the game? They could just as easily do that with NPC bands or dancers. Even if they did add these professions, what players would want to give up a significant amount of their skill points to pursue them with no other reward than some aesthetic or social gameplay and the hope of the occasional tip? To this latter point I do concede that there would be some who would take this path because it would appeal to their playstyle, but I bet it would be a very small number indeed - a number hardly worthy of dev support much less improvements such as new songs, dances, effects, etc.
It is this point of our game mechanic that Warryyr spoke about. If we all simply give up our game mechanic to the bots even if it's for some loftier goal of being an "ideal" entertainer, then many of us fear, and I think rightfully, that we may lose not only our game mechanic, but perhaps our professions altogether for the reasons I mentioned above. By letting the devs and others know of our problems and discontents, and fighting for our viability in the game as an important and respected SWG profession, we're trying to make an effort to improve our role in the game, the desirability of our role, and even the game as a whole by our presence in it and contribution to it. If you are happy with the profession the way it is, and do not want to participate in our efforts to improve our place in the game or even to participate in all aspects of the profession, that's your right and choice, and I respect you for it. Keep in mind however, that what we do is meant to benefit not only those of us trying to carry on the fight but all of us. With added, or at least properly maintained, purpose in the game, we would hope to attract more people to our profession and also give reason for the devs to conitinue adding content for us such as new music, dances, props, flourishes or whatever, and this will enhance your playstyle as well, Euclase, to give you more tools to do what you like to do best. You should consider that, before you label any of us whiners.
To those of you who say let the bots have the static cantinas, I would suggest this additional argument for continuing the fight. To master Entertainer, Musician, or Dance it is a requirement to gain healing XP and apprenticeship points. While it is possible to earn both of these to some degree in other places including player cantinas, the fact is that NPC cantinas especially in the major hub cities such as Coronet or Theed are the some of the best places that novice players can go to train other ents and have a reasonably steady source of healing XP. To just leave these places to the bots, it creates an unpleasant or disappointing atmosphere which would frustrate or discourage new players from really discovering what this profession is about or even giving it a chance. They might choose between giving it up or just becoming another bot themselves. I consider myself lucky that I leveled in an active Theed cantina filled with lively entertainers and customers coming and going, and AFK'ers were a rarity, not the rule (in fact many of us did not even realize that total macroing was possible or if we did, we didn't know or care how). It was a lot of fun, and I learned a lot about the game that way. I don't know if any new ents can say the same anymore. If not for ourselves, then we should reclaim the cantinas for the new entertainers to allow them to have the experience that some of us had when we were new, or perhaps for the experience that we didn't get to have.
Further I find that I disagree with you on your characterization of SOE somewhat. While I agree 100% that SOE has been far too reticent about our issues and problems, I have never seen any dev or other offical statement from an SOE representative that either encourages or endorses bots or AFK'ing for that matter. In fact, all I have seen are official comments to the contrary - that they think that AFK'ing is bad for the game or that it does detract from the playing experience. I do find it very regrettable that they continue to stop short of calling it an outright exploit or an invalid playstyle, but I continue to hope, as perhaps others of us do, that by continuing to speak out about how it affects us or our playstyle, that it will serve to urge the devs to make dealing with it more of a priority. To this end we have gotten at least one proposal from TH, and while it may not be the best idea, it hopefully represents either a change of thinking on their part, or at least a signal that they are ready to begin working on the problem. My personal opinion is that the real problem here is that they created a macroing system that was a little too useful, and in the hands of a very creative playerbase has been turned into something of a monster that they have not been able to control. It might take a significant redesign of the system itself to fix it because by staying within the confines of the system they have set in place, it's difficult for them to justify labeling those who use it as exploiters.
Then there are the unfortunate recent incidents of CSR's rewarding bots with badges which has happened once or maybe twice. Even then, in response to our outcry about one such incident, Pex made a very clear post that SOE does not wish to encourage AFK play and does not think that bots or AFK characters are examples to the profession and should not receive such badges (I don't remember the exact words here, but his post can be referred to on the Entertainer forum). The only thing I think was unfortunate about his post was that I think he should have made a point of saying that an improperly awarded badge would be revoked. I think the CSR's do what they can with guidelines established by SOE which currently permit AFK macros so there is little or nothing they can do to prevent it, and at the same time they are required to give some protections to the controllers of those AFK bots if they decide to man the keyboard long enough to register a complaint. I think is is a tough job they have trying to deal with delicate matters when both sides have strong feelings about an issue and all they can do is interpret or enforce the rules they have whether they personally agree with them or not. I even think they will make mistakes sometimes, and it is even possible that they might decide to pursue their own agenda which could be in our favor or not. If we think they are unfair to us, we can report it to SOE and let them deal with it. It can happen that SOE can decide that an action by a CSR was unjustified as in the case of this recent badge, yet that result might not have come about if we had just shrugged our shoulders and let the bot have it.
Anyway, while I encourage different forms of play within our community, I don't think that any one active method is the "only" or "correct" way to play. I also don't see any reason why we should just give up anything to the bots or why we should just "be happy and enjoy what we've got" if we really feel that there is something wrong that needs to be changed or even improved. I personally feel that our playstyle is at stake here, and that's why I will do what I can to make my bad experiences known, suggest improvements, and support others who do the same.
Vortex500
Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:49 pm
#33
This may be a little off topic.
SWG Account Cancelled July 2004. Reason:
1. Lack of interesting content.
2. GCW as good as dead.
3. Lack of Star Wars "feeling". It could be named Star Trek Galaxies for what I care. Or Lost In Space Galaxies...
4. All of the **** afk spam. I go to a cantina to relax and meet new friends. From I enter to I leave: HEAL ME. TIP ME. GROUP WITH ME... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Ok if they shouted that once every 10 minute... but no.. They shout/yell every 15 sec... over and over and over and over and over and over again. That took away the last little SW feeling I had for this game.
And yes I known there is a option to turn of AFK spam. But they are still just standing there like robots. U dont really know if they are there or not. I have more respect for NPCs than the AFK bots . I dont understand... why have the game on if u arent actually playing it. U ruin the game for so many others.
I remember when I played this game in the start 2003. Cantinas was a meeting point , a real bustling place. U made both friends and foes in the cantina and no one was AFK. In the start people actually went to the cantina to meet people, sit and talkfor hours before the hunt while healing or just tohang out. Not like nowjust to watch a buff bot for 10 minutes and then run away.
Ok I know there areReal Entertainers out there doing a great job... 5 stars to all of them. Its sad the devs allows AFK buff bots to ruining your and mine game experience.
But I have cancelled the game and are leaving this behinde me now.. so why bother.
I wish you all well and good luck. Take care.
NOTE: I have never beena Entertainer.
DiusFidus
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:46 am
#34
Perhaps it wasn't intended as such but I too felt Panthu's comments to Euclase were a bit condescending. First the whole "prostitution" thing and then telling Euclase to do something else. I am sure Euclase has the intellectual capacity to decide for herself what skill boxes she needs and what she doesn't. Maybe it wasn't intended as such but (imo) it came off sounding condescending.
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