Dancer Archive
Thread: A Reason to Perform, Not to Buff
SlickRiptide wrote:
Why should people take time out from their game playing in order to be your audience if there's no in-game benefit to them for doing so?
They shouldn't. Frankly, my whole post conceded this fact.
But the problem is, if people aren't taking the time (which they aren't), then what is there left to do?
/Logoff, and "better luck next time?"
Interdependence is all well and good. But these classes are not interdependent. They are utterly dependent on other players to give us things to do...now, more than ever.
We used to think that this was the only way we could keep these professions, "social professions." But I see nothing very "social" in basing four entire professions on the "brilliant" concept of sitting around, hoping someone can sendus a "can u buff me," /tell.
That is not social.
That's not even very "entertaining," in either the "game sense," or the "roleplay sense."
That is abusive.
Which means, if players want nothing to do with me, my only alternative to "playing as a dancer" is stake out a cantina doing 1000 credit missions. And frankly, that is no choice at all.
Its even worse in terms of IDs...though they are entertainers too, I suppose.
So frankly, our problem is not a "lack of an audience." The problem is that we need a game that doesn't require an audience, yet still "makes sense" in terms of being a performing artist, so that when we are online at 10AM, we'll always have something to do.
If there were a combat profession that could only shoot at other players, and had nothing to do with NPCs, would it be all that popular? Perhaps when players are on, about, and are members of Special Forces, in high numbers.
But how much fun would that profession be to play if there were no players online that were PvP enabled? It would be nothing but a "roleplay profession," similar to us.
So I am not approaching the problem from the standpoint of "forcing an audience" to be where I need them to be. The developers don't want that. Our patrons don't want that. Frankly, many of us don't want that.
But what I do need is a unique and rewarding "meta game," similar to Bounty Hunters. Just as a Bounty Hunter can hunt NPC bounties, when no jedi are on; so too do I want to "entertain in a character sense," the NPC audiences in the galaxy, when no Bio Engineers are on.
It may not be "performing forotherplayers." But at least it has the apperance of something "performance related." We should also keep in mind that the same venues we would do these missions at would be the same venues other players would be entering in the course of their business. And this is how a system-driven game for us, devoid of any interaction (mechanical, or otherwise) with other players, is the only alternative to making these professions work.
A system-driven meta game can not only give us rewarding gameplay options, but also encourage encounters with other players in the course of their business, while we tend to our own business.
If the developers were to tell Bounty Hunters that the profession was designed to attract "Bartle Killer Archetypes," was a strictly PvP profession, and that a Bounty Hunter would no longer be able to use Bounty Hunter weapons, armours, and special attacks in PvE of any sort, would that be a profession worth playing?
What do you think Tanks would do, if the developers took away PvE bounty hunter missions, on the grounds that it does not fit the "player profile" of what a Bounty Hunter should be?
So then why on Corellia would the developers not see the quandry of we entertainment professions?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-29-2005 05:39 PM
Personally I think this could be a good type of additional content if the mini-game is fun. If it occurred only in certain types of venues, that might be a reason for us to go there and hang out whether or not someone comes in to watch us. Even better if these types of games could grant extra dance/entertainer XP to encourage people to be active.
DanceRulez wrote:
This might be the first time I've heard you propose an entertainment system that was not based on trying to create the most entertaining performance possible, Sirii. Specifically, that you would support a system driven entertainer mini-game of some kind.
That old game I used to champion cannot work anymore. It needed BF. It needed passivity. And it needed to base the difference between Master A, and Master B in something other than which one is /watched, and which one clicks the menu command.
As my signiture states, "There is a difference between being /watched, and being WATCHED." Let me explain what this means.
If a dancer cannot control who /watches her, she'd better work with those things she can control: namely, the patron's attention.
I was a master at commanding a patron's attention. That is why passivity worked well for me.
But if a dancer has complete control of who /watches her, what is the real point of working with those things that are, quite frankly, far more challenging to control? What is the point of "outperforming" the other dancers, if one need only "outdistribute buffing authorizations?"
"Granting permission" for a /watch changes the entire expectations of the profession--for both ourselves, and our patrons.
The developers killed my old game. Its why I canceled my subscription.
The only thing that can possibly bring me back at this point is a new game that rewards dancing. Notice, dancing. Not buffing.
I do not want a "mini game." A mini game, I take it, is something that occurs just to "do something interesting" when we are not needed to buff some dolt.
I desire a "meta game," though. Not only something that occupies my attention, but actually gives me purpose as a dancer. Something that is so rewarding, I'd rather do that game, and have the patrons come to me, rather than break with whatever I am doing just to be at a crafter's beck and call.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-29-2005 09:07 PM
Panthu wrote:
Chessack wrote:
Yes, that is all fine in theory, and I agree... in theory.
The problem continues to be, how does one put that into practice? How do we make it an "equally rewarding experience" to go to watch a dancer when many people define fun as the act of getting into in-game combat either with NPCs/Critters (PVE) or other players (PVP)?
PvE isn't too hard to imagine. Variations on escort missions could be done with Ent Players instead of NPCs needing guarded. They could body guard you while you performed and be basically a bouncer. The Ent player could give the mission, it could reward in XP, Credits, or Loot on completion.
So, Cantinas could kind of be like the beach in GW where you enter and get kicked back after a tournament round, heh. It would still be adding to the social hub and taking advantage of the tournament players' downtime... so not really that far off from the original goals. I mean, people talk on the beach in that game while they wait to go in, why wouldn't they in a cantina?
I think there are lots of ways to take better advantage of people's downtime and giving them some actual uptime rewards with out having to make it feel so forced.
Dej and I have experience with the bouncer concept - unfortuanately these boors tend to drive others away from the cantina so that is really not a good answer.
The cantinas used to be the place to be back when we had mind wounds and battle fatigue. Fighting would rage for hours in the streets of Theed, or Anchorhead, or Coronet and the combatants would come into the cantinas and actually interact with the performers. Of course that was back when it was a desirable profession, before the hologrind, before the proliferation of AFK players (be it hologrinders or FS grinders) and buff bots.
There is no simple answer. We must change the mindset of the twitch players. To do so we have to have them come into the cantinas. With the elimination of wounds and fatigue that is near impossible now. The new buffs will draw from the minority of players (non-combatants) so we will still be an an impasse.
Many combant types have expressed the loss they felt at the removal of BFclaiming that theynowhave no reason to go into the cantina, to take a break, to interact with other players. Although it was forced it served as a reminder, oh I need to go and get healed. Some are feeling a bit burned out but rather than stop their PvE or PvP they continue on because they have no reminder in front of their face that they need to take a break.
The onus is now on the entertainer to draw these players into the cantina, like it or not, as we apparently were the ones who deemed BF healing unpalatable (harkening back to a previous post hotly disputed post) to the entertainer profession. There are currently NPCs in the cantinas who either give quests, missions, what have you today and players run in, talk to the NPC and run back out without a glance at the entertainers - even if you speak directly to them, they ignore you as they are bent on one goal.
While mini-games would end up giving the entertainers something to do to while away the time it will not generate much in the way of interaction with other players who come in to try them out. Certainly you have the handful who will respond when you speak to them but that number is dwindling daily.
We've made our beds, now we need to change the sheets more often or window dress the beds so that we can pique the interest of other players.
Chessack wrote:
Yes but when the goal is to engage in non-stop grinding and loot-getting without ever having any "down time" like going into a cantina, well... we're kind of at an impasse then aren't we, in terms of an entertainer's role.
There's no reason why it can't be tied to loot getting or xp gaining. As long as it's a decent alternative to the same goals, I think most would welcome a change of scenery.
We always talk about our inclusion into the greater game, but maybe the Ent game needs to include other styles of play in a mutually rewarding option. That's why I'm so for the Cantina mini-games, it could reward power gamers with loot and creds and bring them into the social hubs for chatting.
I think the problem comes from trying to force them to be the source of all of our gameplay or forcing them to have to come to us. If it was just an equally rewarding experience for them, many would come on their own.
Message Edited by CandiDance on 08-29-2005 03:42 PM
LyteFoot wrote:
I've had occassions when combat players have stopped and watched as a troup of dancers synchronized especially well. I've seen lots of players enjoy what we do when they actually see it. In fact they often go "WOW". So Sirii's point that there is no mechanic today that entices them to watch us perform is very relevant.
I may be misunderstanding,but PoetDancer's point seems to be that she(?) doesn't want a game mechanic at all. Look at the title of this thread. She wants an "entertainer game" built into the greater Galaxies game that will do "something" for entertainers that will make us real-life entertainment, so to speak. She wants to have the audience come into the cantina to see HER, not because the audience member want's "Buff X" and any old entertainer who happens to be hanging around will be adequate for his need.
Most entertainers establish that kind of rapport via their personality and their "chatter". It's a social relationship. PoetDancer appears to desire fame as a dancer as opposed to fame as a socializer. That may be oversimplified, and even flat-out wrong, but that's what I take away from her writings on this topic.
I just don't see how that's going to happen without giving us a way to compose our own music and choreograph our own dances. Even then, you have what I'll dub "Chessack's Law": The game itself is entertainment. Who needs to waste time in a cantina when you're already being entertained by whatever you're doing? If non-entertainers really wanted to see dance and music performances, they'd be in the cantinas right now saying "Where's the show? Why aren't there any entertainers here?"
Instead, they're running through, ignoring the entertainers entirely when they bother to come to the cantina at all. A game mechanic, whether it's a penalty like Battle Fatigue or a benefit like an inspiration buff, is neccesary to give those players incentive. Once they have that incentive, then they give us the opportunity to "wow" them with our social skills or our performance skills or both.
Message Edited by Death_Blossom on 08-30-2005 01:10 PM
Death_Blossom wrote:
jedi whined and now they got their way. Tiggs made a post about the WS buff applying to jedi now. once again, we've been turned into buff dispensing machines to everyone and they are going to hate us for it. They are going to hate us because they won't be able to do anything without them and they will be forced to interact with us for them. I was enjoying being a dancer and musician, and I loved the passiveness of the Inspiration buff. I didn't have to deal with rude or obnoxious people everyday, making my ingame time fun.
That is gone now, no longer will i be able to dance or play music freely in a public location without someone demanding me to buff them. Not asking, demanding. How does that make it fun for me? It doesn't. I don't want to be dancing away and someone comes in demanding a buff. I know not everyone is rude, but the rude ones are the ones that make the impressions more than the non-rude ones.
I'm retiring from entertainment, not because I don't enjoy it but becauseI don't enjoy being made a public slave. I probably won't lose what I worked for since I have a combat toon already, so looks like Meliya will just be aPilot only.
Best of luck to you and I hope you reconsider
Thanks to you all for your kind and not-so-kind words. I used to read the forums well before I posted on them and I looked up to all the dancers and musicians that posted. You were all part of my inspiration to master all forms of entertainment, through good times and bad times. But I feel as if I must go into exile as an entertainer over things I feel are going to hurt my game.
May you all live long and interesting lives.
Message Edited by Death_Blossom on 08-30-2005 01:10 PM
Death_Blossom wrote:
Here is the post that Tiggs made about jedi getting the benefits from the WS buff:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_testing&message.id=81584#M81584
I'm clicky imparied, my apologies
thank you!
Death_Blossom wrote:
Here is the post that Tiggs made about jedi getting the benefits from the WS buff:
I'm clicky imparied, my apologies
Message Edited by Death_Blossom on 08-30-2005 01:09 PM