Dancer Archive
Thread: In Testing May 20th
Coreena wrote:
First of, I don't think /stopdance or /stopmusic is a problem.
If the dancer stops dancing the watcher still keep watching, it doesn't perform a /stopwatch on their side. If the dancer continues to dance then, the buff will continue to increase and BF is healed and all. Just the clapping animation is gone, but since the CU its quite annoying anyway
I most likely will not use this feature, I'm also not sure if I'm happy its in or not, but we'll get it it seems. And the positive side of it is: Its a change for entertainers that is not because its beneficial to the combat players (its not really negative either), so that gives hope for more changes for US.
I'd like to know though if they get a popup as well if they watch/listen to an entertainer that has the covercharge set to 0 ?
Is there a max-amount? Otherwise a few guys setting it to 1 million or so, and hoping someone just clicks "yes" (like people setting 50k entrance fee, because they hope someone just clicks "yes" expecting it to be 1 credit for XP) could ruin the whole image of the entertainer profession again.
Cindal wrote:
Coreena wrote:
First of, I don't think /stopdance or /stopmusic is a problem.
If the dancer stops dancing the watcher still keep watching, it doesn't perform a /stopwatch on their side. If the dancer continues to dance then, the buff will continue to increase and BF is healed and all. Just the clapping animation is gone, but since the CU its quite annoying anyway
I most likely will not use this feature, I'm also not sure if I'm happy its in or not, but we'll get it it seems. And the positive side of it is: Its a change for entertainers that is not because its beneficial to the combat players (its not really negative either), so that gives hope for more changes for US.
I'd like to know though if they get a popup as well if they watch/listen to an entertainer that has the covercharge set to 0 ?
Is there a max-amount? Otherwise a few guys setting it to 1 million or so, and hoping someone just clicks "yes" (like people setting 50k entrance fee, because they hope someone just clicks "yes" expecting it to be 1 credit for XP) could ruin the whole image of the entertainer profession again.
I heard similar comments from our audience members at our Friday night jam session. The feeling was that this will be exploited.
As this appears to be an automatic popup there is nothing to prevent a "bot" from setting up with a lower fee and spamming "Watch me for free, tips are welcome..." or something along those lines. Perhaps we can test to see if it functions while AFK but with the new Health system and proper pauses set into your macro an entertainer need not ever stop so this appears to lend itself to AFK play.
I am worried about the exact same thing.
Anyone who's live will want to make some cash for their work. The AFK bot next to them likely won't EVER charge a cover charge, and in fact will likely become the newest spam to hit the cantina ("no cover charge, watch me all you like, I'm free!").
I'm watching this very carefully...but I think it's a poor decision so far. I'm not feeling like it's actually addressing our more pressing problems. I also don't think it will help us with our financial issues that passive buffing brought upon us.
This is just going to bring back the bots, who'll shake their money maker for free, whereas the live folks are hoping to actually make a living from entertaining. It's the same battle we had before, but now we have a passive buffing system, so the patron has it easier. *sigh*
So, here's why this system, compared to a normal active fee-for-service system (such as with ID or doctor) is flawed.
1. Bots. Bots bots bots! If it is possible to buff without doing something active, the ability to charge is irrelevant since there will be someone willing to give away services for free if they don't have to actually *do* anything to provide those services. If they had to be there to provide a service, I doubt they would value their time and efforts at 0 credits.
2. Interaction. This is supposed to be a social game. How is it social to use an interface to set a price and then for the customer to accept your price without talking to you? It's like a vendor sale! Now, in contrast, other in-person services in the game foster interaction - for example "can you change my hair color" or "would you please heal my wounds." This does nothing but perpetuate the perception of the entertainer as automaton.
3. Respect. This deals mostly with active buffing and not with this new system. If our services are something that the customer takes, unless we prevent it, rather than something we sell or give, it gives the customer the power, not us. Even with the interface, the psychological sense of "entitlement" due to a system that puts all active participation in the buff in the hands of the customer is damaging to our profession.
This will force the customer to pay for a service, if the customer cannot find another entertainer. However, it will be counter to the goal of getting the customer to interact with us. And isn't interaction the point of a social profession?
I hate the idea of the cover charge and popup window. My income hasn't changed at all since CU and losing the buffs. CU *has* pretty much disabled the bots and given us our profession back. There are more live entertainers in the cantinas then ever before and lots of people are turning to the Entertainer professions. The cover charge is going to take us backward a step IMO. Why not give us props, profession specific clothing,or the ability to use weapons as props only instead?
I heard similar comments from our audience members at our Friday night jam session. The feeling was that this will be exploited.
As this appears to be an automatic popup there is nothing to prevent a "bot" from setting up with a lower fee and spamming "Watch me for free, tips are welcome..." or something along those lines. Perhaps we can test to see if it functions while AFK but with the new Health system and proper pauses set into your macro an entertainer need not ever stop so this appears to lend itself to AFK play.
How this turns out, I think, will depend on the atmosphere of a given server, and the behavior of those performers who remain live.
As things stand right now, I get payed very nice sums JUST for being live, at my keyboard. If a patron enters the cantina, I greet them, perhaps strike up a conversation if they feel like acknowledging me in return. For me, setting up a cover charge would be detrimental -I don't perform to fund my character, I perform to entertain myself by interacting with others.
I obviously can't speak for other servers. But on Sunrunner, I'm being rewarded simply for being live and letting other players know that, without spamming, without begging, without making demands of any kind. I don't care if the person sends me 100 cr or 100k, but any time I get a tip from any visitor I get a warm fuzzy inside.
I do hope that, should the performer set no cover charge (0 cr), that no pop-up will appear. If the pop-up appears no matter what, I can see a lot of problems and a lot of complaints being heard - people spamming one thing (No cover charge!) and actually requiring any amount they decide upon.
There are a lot of people who are out of the loop regarding changes to Entertainers and how we now work. Yes, some bots will be aware of the change and alter their Ad macros accordingly, but a lot won't. I'm not saying we should rely on people not keeping up with their bot's profession, but I really don't think this is the end of the world.
If you choose to set a cover charge, that's your choice. If what you're currently doing isn't getting you the payments you require, obviously something needs to change. But regardless of what options Entertainers are given, now and in the future, remember that we live performers aren't limited by these changes unless we let ourselves be limited.
isn't it funny how we can't really enjoy a feature added to our profession because we know before it's even implemented that any attempt to make the proffession useful or profitable will completely ruin it with the reintroduction of afk spam bots who will fill the public cantinaswith all manner of nastiness.
le sigh.
This is a step in the wrong direction. Why the development staff (and even us, by in large) are still batting around this concept of taking credits out of a patron's account and putting it directly into ours as the means of income is beyond me. This system of "getting paid" is only slightly better than our first system.
What justifies a cover charge price? Why is my performance X amount, while another's is Y amount? The things we do cannot be marketed and priced like a blaster or anything else like that. Why these developers seem convinced that we "sell a /watch" is beyond me.
The cover charge, in my opinion, works best when you set it to zero. Indeed, I predict that the cover charge, like /deny, will be a command that is rarely used due to the negative perception it creates. Another specialized and utterly useless command that will ultimately undermine the viability of the user.
What I'd rather have is a better entertainment subsystem in the economy, complete with our own system driven distribution mechanism, system driven reward structure, system driven time and credit sinks, and an active game totake charge ofone's own performance schedule. What we have now is more or less a "pick up game" that has been turned into a main game. What we should have is a game that promotes the activity of the performer to set up their gigs, prepare, and follow through. Not simply to "exist" and hope a player /watches or /listens to them.
Its too late to change this direction. It is on Test Centre, and it is going in as-listed, no matter how much we like or dislike it. I would much rather have them work on fixing the "cannot watch/too far away" bug, which in my opinion makes this class unplayable and untippable in far greater ways than any lack of a /CoverCharge command.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 05-21-2005 11:20 AM
Cindal wrote:
I heard similar comments from our audience members at our Friday night jam session. The feeling was that this will be exploited.As this appears to be an automatic popup there is nothing to prevent a "bot" from setting up with a lower fee and spamming "Watch me for free, tips are welcome..." or something along those lines. Perhaps we can test to see if it functions while AFK but with the new Health system and proper pauses set into your macro an entertainer need not ever stop so this appears to lend itself to AFK play.
I'm not sure that this will be a big concern. Why do the macro-zombies do what they do? Well, I can imagine two reasons:
(1) to gain XP and level up as fast as possible. If that's what they are doing it for, then they are temporary zombies. There's no reason to be a zombie afterwards, so we don't have to worry about what they will do (unless they switch to type 2).
(2) To earn money from doing nothing (apart from setting up a macro). If they are there to earn money, I would be highly surprised if most of them are going to rely on tips. In fact the beahviors of the buff-bots show just exactly how these people really do behave. There were some on our server in fact, Cin. They did things like, you had to bank tip them once, to get on their "buff list", and then (somehow with a macro... I dunno how because I don't write those sorts of macros) you had to be on that list to get a buff from them. I only know about this because I heard some people from my own guild (/sigh) talking about it on guild chat, about how to "get on the buff list" so you can receive your buff at will from the buffbot. The bots are not doing what they are doing out of altruism. They are doing it out of the height of selfishness. There might be one or two who think that tips will be better if they spam about not having a cover charge, but the mentality of these people suggests that the primary thing they will do is set ridiculous fees and then force people to pay them. In fact, I view it as much more likely, along with the small group size thing we already have, that "entertainment cartels" would form, where you can't get into the group unless you agree to their set cover charge and the like.
It will be interesting to see what happens when Dejah takes her Mandoviol and her Theatrical dance and wanders into Coronet after this goes live, and plays for tips with no cover charge, as she always has, and always will. My guess is she will receive venom from the buffbots if they find out she is there (but how are they going to know, since their players are AFK?) and appreciation from the players (and, more than likely, a lot more money in tips than I would charge for a cover fee anyway).
I know this: the largest tips I have ever gotten, on the order of 50k etc, have always come right after someone asked me "How much do you charge?" and I had Dejah respond, "I don't charge, hon." (Or whatever).
You think the buffbots are going to do that and rely on charm for tips? I don't. They do what they do out of laziness and greed.
C
The most successful and richest buffbot in the history of the game did not become so successful and rich because she charged for buffs.
It is because she gave +125% musician and dancer buffs away for free that Briha was the richest non-player on Bria.
Even a tip of one credit is one more credit than the buffbot owner would have received if there was no buffbot. Combine this with the fact that most guilds and buffbot owners only really care about manipulating a certain environment and creating a zone of predictability means that they will be around no matter how much or little they are paid.
The buffbots that charged for this "service" were never the game breakers for us. "Selling a buffing cycle" was never a product one could commoditize and sell efficiently and effectively. The ones that killed the profession for us were the ones that realized the truth of what we do for players: thata /watchdoes not in and of itself entail wealth, admiration, and respect. The things given by /watch are only the things that get the patron to us. They are never the things that players tip to get.
The cover charge is great news!
For buffbots, now they canbe assured ofpayment for their "services", for any real entertainers this is a terrible thing and I will never use it.
And I will still sit and say "Get paid"
The community should be banding together to set standards for work instead of worrying they will be ignored.
I really do think that this is a good idea,
and hate me all you want
But do not complain you cannot/donot make/earn credits if you deny this system.
Yes I am one who goes for the performances,
and I truely wholeheartidly beleive that you SHOULD have a set fee for people watching you
same as any performer out there, buy a ticket watch the show
You cannot rely on generosity of other players,
and no matter what system is in place
people will try and find ways around it,
set up ways to exploit it
and generally be people
but
that should not discourage you from saying you deserve a fee for your time effort and professionalism.
Start a union, form troupes, insist on being in groups who have a set fee
but please by all means do not assume that the audiance will take this as a cue to just tip you, they wont
They will find those who don't use it and will not pay, or find ones with the next to nil charge.
Get Paid for your work as you do work {mind I am talking to ATK players and performers}