Dancer Archive
Thread: Cover Charge Please
Thanks for posting.
PuntaSur wrote:
As for the comment from someone about a player owned house with an entry fee for healing, let me pick myself up off the floor now. Exactly how many players will go out of their way to run to the suburbs to PAY for healing, when they can just go get free healing in town from those who give it away for experience? Maybe one in three thousand?
This is why I think cover charges for healing centers at least remind people that these facilities have professions played out by characters who serve a great purpose, and it is one worth paying for. The bank gets 5% for the convenience of bank to bank transfers, and shuttle rides cost money too. There are two services that take money OUT of the player economy, yet nobody flinches to use them. You don't see architects, weaponsmiths, or tailors giving away their efforts. Slicers do tend to open containers for free early on, but eventually demand a price for their work too. I just think a cover charge makes sense for professions where people are currently leeching from other players services.
That's exactly why most medics don't charge for healing: there's always someone willing to do it for free and everyone knows it.
It is a fine line between trying to gently coax someone into tipping and annoying them with spams about 'give me money' and unfortunately not everyone knows the limit. I've never asked for money for healing but I've made some decent coin at it. I will day, however that most of the time when I do get tipped it is because another medic in the area has an informative macro they'll say maybe once every 5 minutes to the effect of 'Please don't forget to tip your medics, our harvesters and meds aren't free' -- it isn't demanding and he doesn't annoy ppl with its frequency.
I don't think it's really needed and here is why.
if you hare a nice person and treat your customers as your friendsthey'll tip you acordingly. if they don't give you a good tip or don't give you a tip at all you'll just forget them . also tell your customers up front "i'll heal you for a minimum tip of 500 credits" give them a flat rate and they might give you more.
I haven't had much trouble getting tips . just leave the ones that want free service at the mercy of the medics with the wound pack As. if you are getting XP for healing you won't mind healing them anyways.
Jumping in late here with my .02 credits.
Cover charges for public cantinas have been discussed ad nauseum for a long time, and my feelings have never changed. To put it succinctly:
No! No! No!
One, why should every entertainer in that cantina be "entitled" to the same payment when we do not all entertain to the same level -- and some of us don't entertain at all? I prefer the Darwinian approach: if you're good enough to earn your tips (and many, many of us have had no problems making a living) then you'll survive and thrive. If you're not, there are other professions to pursue. Paying the non-entertaining entertainer only supports a bad habit.
Two: We want to encourage players to come to cantinas, which are already a wretched hive of lag and spam Charging cover chases away the newbies, discourages the borderline players who don't appreciate the cantinas in the first place, and further degrades the public cantina as a social nexus in the game.
Three: Private cantinas can already charge cover, as Jeassa noted. What's the difference, you ask? Again, it's fair market competition -- those private cantinas which offer the best entertainment and best atmosphere will thrive and easily justify their cover charge. What justification for cover charges in public cantinas can we possibly invent other than some socialist idea of "equal share for all entertainers"?
Believe it or not, tips aren't really Dancers' main critical issue. Give us the targeted mind buffs so we can offer a product and fix the pathetic entertainer missions, and we willget our tips the old-fashioned way: by earning them.
I don't particularly like the idea of a cover charge for the 'NPC' structures in game. I agree with what Sinda said about them.
Couple of points I wanted to address:
"I disagree with charging for healing, not everyone is rich, some just started and can't pay at all"
I've started several characters from scratch and I've *always* been able to pay a little something for healing. You start with 250 credits. If you need more, you can do the no-skill local delivery missions. Sure, they don't pay a whole heck of a lot at once but if you're strapped for cash and with few other options, they're great. Even after buying a second novice skill on a brand new character, when I needed cantina healing I would simply choose to watch one entertainer and tip that one person the 100 credits that I could afford. (Usually it was easy because there was only one person actually at the keys). If the person can't afford the dancer's rate, they can wait for another entertainer or go elsewhere. I've said before that I simply don't understand why the performance entertainers are the only service profession which is required to provide instant gratification.
Similarly, replace the word 'healing' in there with 'weapons' or 'armor' or 'furniture'. We are providing a *service*, just like a weaponsmith or a tailor. I would love the *option* to be able to charge up front without having to resort to the negative reinforcement of /deny service. I don't know that I would use such a feature, but I can respect those that would choose to ensure that they are reimbursed for the service that they provide.
Jeassa, if weaponsmiths had no way to charge the rifleman for their guns and the devs suddenly added a way, I'm sure you'd have just as hard a time convincing the rifleman that it was a good thing. 
I am opening a cantina in the next few weeks. There will be a CR500 cover charge. Why would a player pay this:
1. Only Master Entertainers that have auditioned will be able to perform inside...others will be banned
2. Not pets or dueling inside...violaters will be banned
3. Very unique interior furnishings...nothing like it on Bloodfin
4. Location, location, location...between a small city and a very popular destination..away from the rat race
5. Club entertainers will be able to ban players who break club rules
6. Club entertainers who abuse macros and or practice AFK'ing will be banned themselves
7. No cybersex or lewd behavior allowed in public view...violaters will be banned
8. Patrons who demonstrate a pattern of not tipping will be banned
9. Social events...we'll be having a Bambi Hunting tournament at our grand opening
10. Food and beverage service (coming soon)
11. Vendors (coming soon)
12. Real world web site will post regular headline performers
The idea is to keep out newbies and those players that are only interested in entertainment to heal BF. Yes we know this will not appeal to all players...the ones that won't like this can all go to the in-town cantinas. If on the other hand you want to roleplay a quality Star Wars cantina experience you will love this club.
We happen to be between an Imperial and Rebel city...we hope for a mix of guest from both sides...tension an conflict anyone?
We are finalizing the web site and the club itself as we speak. Details about the opening will be release acroos these mesage boards and in-game very soon.
If you are interested in this concept there is a lengthy thread on it here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Bloodfin&message.id=63708
One problem with Registering location determining tips... Only Novice Dancers and Musicians,or above, get that skill, I think. So what happens to the novice entertainers? Are they stuck? And these are just the people who often most need money. My halfway-to-master dancer has had 50K, give or take, to her name, for like a month now. She didn't get it all from tips, mind... but she's sure not struggling. But she was really hurting for money when she first started out.
While I agree that players should pay for service just like they pay for, say, a weapon, the fact is that the service we are providing is a must, while a weapon, though it may be desirable, is an option. My dancer is also a marksman. While she has some nice weapons, she could have got by all the way to master on just CDEFs (which, as an artisan also, she can make herself). It wouldn't be easy to do, but she could do it (I know someone who got to master pistoleer just using CDEFs). She doesn't have to have a big honking weapon. BF and mind wounds on the other hand, you have to heal, or you can't play the rest of the game.
So Dancers are providing a service that must be purchased (as are medics). Weaponsmiths and armorsmiths are providing materials which while desirable are optional. For that reason, I think it is a bad idea to put required costs on a required service.
Imagine this case... a fighter with a huge amount of BF. And I mean huge. And lots of mind wounds. And other wounds. And he has no money. You could say, "go run missions" but how can he, when he is so wounded and full of BF? "Well, run delivery missions," right? Whoah there! When the fighters tell us, "Run destroy missions if you want money," we get (justifiably) angry and say, "Hey, I did not make a non-combat character to go run destroy missions... I shouldn't have to play the game that way." But we are going to tell the people who want to just do combat missions, "Go run non-combat missions if you want enough money to heal"...? That seems hypocritical to me.
We want to be careful not to talk out of both sides of our mouths here... We don't want to tell fighters, "Go do stuff you hate to do so you can pay us," when we are also telling them, "Pay us so we don't have to go do stuff we don't like to do." That's just not right.
C
Chessack wrote:
While I agree that players should pay for service just like they pay for, say, a weapon, the fact is that the service we are providing is a must, while a weapon, though it may be desirable, is an option...While she has some nice weapons, she could have got by all the way to master on just CDEFs (which, as an artisan also, she can make herself). It wouldn't be easy to do, but she could do it (I know someone who got to master pistoleer just using CDEFs). She doesn't have to have a big honking weapon. BF and mind wounds on the other hand, you have to heal, or you can't play the rest of the game.
So Dancers are providing a service that must be purchased (as are medics). Weaponsmiths and armorsmiths are providing materials which while desirable are optional. For that reason, I think it is a bad idea to put required costs on a required service.
To counter this argument, Dancer & Entertainers mind healing ability could also be considered an optional component. If you sit long enough in a medical center or a cantina, your wounds are healed. Just like using a CDEF pistol against that charging Bol. Sure, you can shoot him, but you better be able to run around Dantooine for a few laps shooting over your shoulder as you kill it at 37 points per shot (Don't miss).
Ahleur - Enthraller - Intrepid
I personally think that any form of regulated "charge" on a dancer or musicians healing is just going to reinforce the popular view of us as the "welfare profession". The combat classes already hold us in contempt because we don't hunt and so many have AFKed their way to master. Now you want to add to that by forcing them to pay for healing?
There is this cute card game we play here at home called Munchkin, its a D&D spoof. In this game if you want a level you play your "Whine at the GM" card and go up one. Are we not doing something similar? "I can't afford new clothes" "I don't want to run delievery missions to pay for training" "fix it GM fix it".
Yes i'm being harsh, but darn it folks, i worked my way from novice to master AT MY KEYBOARD. In my novice ent days i ran delivery missions to pay for my training, 99% of which was purchased from NPC's because i was the only dancer of my level in my town. By the time i got to apprentice dancer, i was making enough to live from my tips because i stayed in one place, i picked smaller towns, i got to know the people in them. i danced SMART. Yes, you sacrifice the fast leveling exp of the big towns but on the plus side, you get a heck of a lot more role play interaction and make many more friends.
I vote no to any form of game regulated charge that the Devs might want to put on dancers, it will destroy any credibility we have remaining. Devs, if you do put this idea in place, PLEASE make sure we have the option not to charge.
There has never been a more clear cut case of Keynesian economics. This is a simple case of supply and demand.
Combat class characters create a demand for entertainment to relieve BF and mind wounds. Entertainers supply a service that meets this demand.
In a market driven economy such as the one SOE has attempted to create in SWG price equilibrium would be established over time as entertainers via for customers and those customers shop for the best deal.
So why is this market economy not working in SWG?
Simple macro economics.
Newbies are dancing for experience not money...on the premise that as they improve their skills they will offer a more valuable service and hence garner more/bigger tips.
The choice between walking into a cantina and sitting down in front of a bunch of newbies to heal BF and mind wounds for free vsactually tipping said newbies or perhaps a more experienced entertainer is a no brainer.
Why buy the cow when you're getting the milk for free?
Remember that these combat class characters are pinching pennys to buy expensive armor and weapons. Frankly they'd be stupid to tip for a service they can most often get for free.
So what is the solution? Occam's Razor...the simplest solution to any problem is usually the right one.
DON'T DANCE FOR FREE.
Why won't this work? See aforementioned point regarding newbies dancing for experience.
So what do we do?
Accept that those players that are online to "run and gun" aren't going to tip...period. It's those players that are online to roleplay and experience Star Wars that will tip.
There needs to be a separation of entertainment venues that provide cheap/free entertainment by newbies seeking xp for those "run and gun" players that won't tip in any case and those that offer higher quality entertainment AND roleplaying for those involved players that want to experience a Star Wars cantina in detail.
To that end I am opening my own cantina to test this theory. I posted a link to another thread offering details. I suspect many have ingnored my concept without considering that the very point is to address these issues.
Here is a link to the thread again:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Bloodfin&message.id=63708
PuntaSur wrote:
Jeassa,
So you feel that a rifleman should get free heals just for having wounds and BF?
They prioritise their earned credits for travel, weapons, armor, and pets. Why do you think they would have a problem making a priority to have credits for healing and entertainment?
If they are the tipping type anyway, they will not mind a structured system and will support it the same. It will possibly teach manners to the masses of those (young kids usually)out there who fail to tip appropriately, and who knows, maybe that will transition into their Real Life behavior for the better.
This also solved the AFK Macro issue which has bubbled into the hot priority of late. I'm concerned that you are discounting this concept too quickly without giving it a perspective that will benefit the whole community. Can you be more complete in your responses on this topic?
Nope, I don't think they should get free heals, I think that it would be a hard sell to those riflemen who need their wounds healed. I asked my friend about this last night (he is a rifleman) and he doesn't think that charging per heal is great for them either. He tips the dancers when he goes to get healed, but he still thinks that having to tip per heal or having to pay to get into a cantina would be a serious detriment to the profession (dancers/entertainers/medics).
I totally agree that there needs to be something else to encourage people to tip, trust me I spend plenty of time in the cantina only to walk out maybe 100 credits richer. I just don't think that forcing tips on them is the best way.
As for the AFK macro issue I don't see that as a big issue, those that stand around in the cantina with me AFK aren't getting any more tips than I am and they are probably getting less. The bigger problem I see is tipping. I understand that we have a difference in opinons in what is a greater issue, but from my own experience in the cantinas this is what I see.