Dancer Archive
Thread: Dancers will probably not like me but I still feel it is dignified...
Morath360 wrote:
I said nothing about making a bot and setting it off, however it does raise an interesting issue. What if I decide to buff my dancer character with my master doc and set it off in a cantina for 3 hours. Forget the xp earned and assume this is after I become a master dancer. If I choose to do that with my second character while I use my first character to go fight or buff or gather resources, then I see no problem with that. Just like I have no problem going to work and having my factories work for me. Again, I am providing a valuable service in which I feel good about. If I dont get a tip for heals, thats cool cause I don't want any.
That is not a playstyle. That's just letting your char run through game activities while you aren't using it. - I'm not saying no one finds this useful, but there is no "play" involved so it can't be considered a playstyle.
The very huge difference in between leaving an AFK freebie heal bot up and using in game unattended features like factories, vendors, and harvesters is that it harms other people's gameplay. It just wasn't set up to work like that. The only crafting example that could be given would be some kind of price gauging campaign. Like if a bunch of mule account chefs decided to foot the bill for all brandy resources and expenses then went to every bazaar and sold them in huge crates for one credit a piece.
You have to also pretend that all the bazaars were kept stocked 24/7 by people doing this with their second accounts, on all servers, and brandy was the only item chefs could make. 
Would people like this "service"? Sure they would, but you could bet all the chefs trying to play the profession would hate it.
As for the 30sec buff work around, I don't mind buffing people faster personally. I wouldn't mind targeting a player and fully buffing them in one click, as long as it was set up correctly to work like that. The spam associated with this method and the spastic looking animations... the fact that you can't be watched while you are doing it so you have to put in enough time to let people start watching you or hear "it says you aren't dancing! it says you aren't dancing!"... these are the things that make it not "real" dancing. 
I feel confident enough in my ability to be able to keep patrons there and talking to me for the full amount of time they would be willing no matter how long the buffing process takes, but I want it to be an intended feature that looks correct and is easy for the customer to understand if I'm going to use it.
First, let me congratulate everyone participating in this thread for keeping your heads. Too often, topics like this turn into back and forth flame wars, and this thread has thusfar been very reasonable, and in my opinion constructive discussion.
Morath, regarding your questions about the "spirit" of being a dancer and the buffing issue, I still think that the debate in the community about the 30 second speed buff is centered around the still unanswered questions of whether or not it's exploiting the system.
As has been said in another thread (in so many words), if dancer's buffs were intended to be invoked in 30 seconds, why then can't 3 smoothly executed flourishes be done, one per tick, for a full 2 hour buff duration? The basis of dance performance (note that I said performance, not game mechanic outcome) is not in how many action points can be burned off in as short a time as possible, but in linking together base dance, flourish, and even dance style switching as smoothly as possible for the most pleasing visual animated effect. The underlying game mechanics, in my opinion, are or should be secondary.
Active targeted /setperform dancer buffs, as apparently intended, take around 8 minutes... seemingly based on a rate of1 flourish per tick, the rate (more or less) at which flourishes can animate and maintain this smooth dance performance. Before anyone launches into flame wars over this observation, let me explain that I've based these assumptions on what has been quoted previously from the devs (the 8 minute time frame), and reports on early tests done by dancers doing minimal flourishing over those 8 minutes and still delivering full duration buffs. If these assumptions are correct, then finding workarounds to the flourishing system by using /stopdance to reset the flourish timer, as is found in the 30 second buff macro, would imply an exploit onthe system as it was intended to be implemented, if not specifically a "bug" that is being exploited.
"Career" dancers in SWG, wholly depend upon tips for performance, entertaining through socializing, as well as the healing and buffing mechanics, would certainly see a threat to their primary source of income in the form of these "exploits" on the system, and feel "used" if the only content of the professions we enjoy turns into nothing more than jacking some game mechanics (to the detriment of any form of visually pleasing performance) for our in-game contributions. Many of us do not want to take the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" route and use the 30 second buff macro (or gain XP AFK for that matter), as it appears to be cheating the system, and I for one don't want to participate in that - I don't feel that I need to "cheat" to be successful in this game. Just my take on it... others may agree or disagree as they see fit.
If it turns out to not be deemed an exploit, then I think that many of us see that as an acknowledgement from the devs that there's not really any place in the game for performers... and it comes into question why we even have dance animations and flourishes in the first place. If entertainer healing and buffing is intended to be simply the pop of a game mechanic, then it might as well just take the form of a doc buff with an icon dropping on your head when I push a button. I think many others agree, which is why we'd like to see things like the 30 second speed buff gone.
I do hope this has been mostly coherent, and a reasonably accurate portrayal of the issues involved and the feelings of the dancing community here. I encourage further discussion.
*just my opinion*
The "true entertainers" as we like to put it have left a huge market for buff/healing bots. One of the problems, as I see it, is the lack of interest in taking up a proffession that provides no tangible benefit to the player. Entertaining, in the terms of usefulness, is a bit of a sacrifice. Most live players would prefer their skills be useful to thier character. This creates a lack of entertainers on most servers which in turns creates a market for alternate "healing" characters and buff bots.
The second problem, in my opinion, is that "true entertainers" have a tendancy to spend their time in places where live entertainment is appreciated (roleplaying communities, entertainer's guilds, private parties) and not necesarily where mind healing is needed. This perpetuates the problem of not being able to find a live entertainer.
So long as there is a need for entertainers we will have afk bots in the major npc cities. They've been there since June and will be there until the servers are dismantled. In my opinion, there is nothing to be done about powergamers. They exist in every profession and I doubt they will be going away anytime soon. I don't think we should focus so much on each other's play styles but maybe should worry more about our own actions.
If you like to use your toon to heal and don't care so much about the performance or socializing then more power too ya. I probably won't play with ya too much, but i'm not so close minded as to think that you have no right to be there.
*double post*
Message Edited by TheSillyOne on 04-09-2004 07:51 AM
I'm kind of in the middle ground here. I mean, if anybody has read my posts or knows me in game, they know that I like to entertain. A lot. It's one of the main reasons I dance. But, it is not the only reason. I want very much to be USEFUL in this game. And, if I could not heal wounds or battle fatigue, and I could not buff, who knows if I would still dance. I like to think that I would, but then again, I don't know that. After all, if we had no healing or buffing ability, why would people watch us? Yes, there would be some people who enjoy watching entertainment, but I suspect that population is somewhat low. I think that as actual performance grow, which they are and I love that fact, people do and will want to take in a performance every now and then. But, I think for the most part it would be a bunch of dancers and musicians in the Cantina who are playing for themselves. But, being a social creature in game who likes roleplay and entertaining, I want an audience. And, it matters not to me if most of the other players have to come in for me to get that audience. I think a good deal of people, after coming in to get healed or get buffed...well, that is the stepping stone to forming relationships, and that is the stepping stone for us, as entertainers, to be immersed in the Star Wars Galaxies universe. And, that is the stepping stone for these hunting parties to say, "You can buff a whole group?! Come with us, when our buffs run out, we'll set up camp and you can buff us again!" I don't want to spend all of my time in a Cantina. I want to go out and see the world as well, and I'm extremely grateful that I can be of some use out in the field, not only with my fighting skills, but also with my buffing and healing abilities. And, yes, I'm an entertainer at heart, but I WANT to get paid too. We have a profession in this game, and we should absolutely have a way to make money off of it. And, for those who get to master dancer and/or musician, we get the buff as a good source of income so that we can buy the new clothes or the house or whatever the case may be.
So, while I may not share the original poster's viewpoint of only being a healer and buffer, I can completely sympathize because he is getting use out of the profession in a way that I consider to be a MAJOR reason that we exist. One may claim that if that's all we are then we might as well give doctor's that capability. But, consider this. If this is not PART of what we are, then why have our PROFESSION in the first place? We are, after all, supposed to be interdependent on each other, and we're supposed to all be of use in this universe. And, if that's all he wants to use our profession for, so be it. I don't see anything crazier about that than people who just want to socialize and entertain. It's all part of the same thing. I frankly don't understand, necessarily, wanting to be only one or the other, but I have no problem with it. In fact, I actually do wish that the mind buffing process was a lot quicker, and I would have no problem whatsoever with it being 30 seconds. I do, think, that the alleged exploit is not really a form of entertainment and I don't like to use it and haven't use it so far. But, I do wish there was a buff command that would last 30 seconds and take the form of a sequence of pre-programmed flourishes that looked different than any of our other dance moves. That would be both entertaining and efficient. I personally see no reason why this can't be a possibility or why someone would have anythingagainst that since we'd still be performing.
One thing I do have a problem with, however, is those who may want to choose to have an afk buff bot. Basically I'm not too fond of the whole afk thing to begin with. But, again, I don't begrudge those who choose to do it since it is supported by the devs. But, generally afk buffbots or afk'ers in remote places do take away our business and our opportunities, and that would make us "true" entertainers useless, which I am very much against. It would go against exactly what I'm arguing for here, and at that point I would have to say, yeah, just give the docs all of our healing and buffing powers. But, for someone who just wants a dancer to help out their guild in this capacity, I see nothing innately wrong with it anymore than someone who might become an entertainer for the sole purpose of entertaining their guild and never performed buffs.
Panthu wrote:
Morath360 wrote:
I said nothing about making a bot and setting it off, however it does raise an interesting issue. What if I decide to buff my dancer character with my master doc and set it off in a cantina for 3 hours. Forget the xp earned and assume this is after I become a master dancer. If I choose to do that with my second character while I use my first character to go fight or buff or gather resources, then I see no problem with that. Just like I have no problem going to work and having my factories work for me. Again, I am providing a valuable service in which I feel good about. If I dont get a tip for heals, thats cool cause I don't want any.
That is not a playstyle. That's just letting your char run through game activities while you aren't using it. - I'm not saying no one finds this useful, but there is no "play" involved so it can't be considered a playstyle.
The very huge difference in between leaving an AFK freebie heal bot up and using in game unattended features like factories, vendors, and harvesters is that it harms other people's gameplay. It just wasn't set up to work like that. The only crafting example that could be given would be some kind of price gauging campaign. Like if a bunch of mule account chefs decided to foot the bill for all brandy resources and expenses then went to every bazaar and sold them in huge crates for one credit a piece.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 04-12-2004 06:38 AM
Morath360 wrote:
I appreciate your point but disagree. First, macros were intended for SWG and it is constantly evolving. So you simply can't know what the devs intended.
Just to clarify, I wasn't excluding macros or some afk as valid playstyles. We do know that the devs intended the class to be "social" because they have said so many times over now.
Playstyle and player type are two different things though. I could technically have an alt that I afk leveled up to Master Pistoleer and then left AFK looting/harvesting for months, but I still wouldn't consider that a playstyle. I would however consider myself a certain Pistoleer player type.
That's just my view though, certainly not the devs' or the other dancers' and should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm glad this thread has improved your impression of us, drop by anytime! We always welcome polite debates.
Morath360 wrote:
Panthu wrote:
Morath360 wrote:
I said nothing about making a bot and setting it off, however it does raise an interesting issue. What if I decide to buff my dancer character with my master doc and set it off in a cantina for 3 hours. Forget the xp earned and assume this is after I become a master dancer. If I choose to do that with my second character while I use my first character to go fight or buff or gather resources, then I see no problem with that. Just like I have no problem going to work and having my factories work for me. Again, I am providing a valuable service in which I feel good about. If I dont get a tip for heals, thats cool cause I don't want any.
That is not a playstyle. That's just letting your char run through game activities while you aren't using it. - I'm not saying no one finds this useful, but there is no "play" involved so it can't be considered a playstyle.
The very huge difference in between leaving an AFK freebie heal bot up and using in game unattended features like factories, vendors, and harvesters is that it harms other people's gameplay. It just wasn't set up to work like that. The only crafting example that could be given would be some kind of price gauging campaign. Like if a bunch of mule account chefs decided to foot the bill for all brandy resources and expenses then went to every bazaar and sold them in huge crates for one credit a piece.
I appreciate your point but disagree. First, macros were intended for SWG and it is constantly evolving. So you simply can't know what the devs intended. This is especially true given the fact that macros can loop infinitely. Factories can't even do that. There is "play" involved just like there is "play" involved by setting factories to run. I have to set the schematic, which is like making the macro, load the resources and perhaps make sub components first and expiriment. This is like loading my entertainer up with med packs if she has med skills and timing everything out properly and you have to find a good location with the dancer. Im exploring and gaining mastery over the macro system this is fun and "play" for me. Couple this with the fact that I make the med packs in a factory and now I have a whole scheme set up to support my afk dancer. For me this all preparation for my character. This is all part the the "play".
Second, I see using a factory the same as hiring a person. What difference does it make if I automate a process by "buying" a factory or "hire"a person to craft it for me. Both are acceptable means of creating stuff. It really goes back to the fact that entertainers wish to force keyboard presence. It seems that entertainers feel cheated if another entertainer is getting some rewards but are not present. I think if you like to entertain, there are benefits that no afker/macro person can duplicate. I feel that entertainers should be happy with that. Honestly, I believe that the normal Joe will go to an entertainer that is talking to him. I think the interaction with the player is what you guys and girls really like. That is not threatened by the macro/afker.
Finally, on the point of making money. Honestly, you are not going to make much money only having one profession. I love master heavy sword but even running enraged rancor missions with a group leads to only small returns given the time it takes. If all you want to do is entertain then you can certainly make enough regardless of the macro/afkers to keep you in clothes and such. If you need more funds you will prolly have to get more professions.
Again, I really appreciate the conversation here. It has given me a lot to think about and increased my respect for you the entertainers..
Message Edited by Morath360 on 04-12-2004 06:38 AM
Morath:
First of all, you don't even need stimpacks to run your alt. Just get a human or a rodian and migrate your stats on your greens to the max. Second of all, you cannot play a buffbot. Its impossible. You cannot physically be awake 24/7 and sacrifice everything the sheer availability to be utilized by everyone and anyone that comes by. However, we know that non players have effects on the game world as well, be it skilltape looters, or entertainers. Please keep the following in mind:
--It should be self-evidently obvious that unattended characters are not players. If you are not at the tools you need to play the game, you cannot play. Now I do not doubt that unattended characters influence the game world in a way that may mimic live play, and I'm not saying that unattended characters shouldn't exist. All I'm saying is that by no reasonable definition can you say an unattended character plays in any way that is consistant with what we commonly understand as the term. Play has to be enjoyable, but unattended characters have no real need for joy or success. They'll just simply do what they are programed to do whether the things they do are enjoyable or not.
--Entertainers were meant to be played by live players. If they weren't, then there wouldn't be three professions devoted to it or you could get the services through some NPC or crafted item. Im not saying that unattentiveness cannot be done, but I have a very difficult time believing that the developers inteded the lion's share of service to come from non-players.
--Entertainment services are the only services that do not require power, maitenance fees, or anything else to be distributed 24/7 for free. Your harvestors and factories require some maitenance or player effort to sustain them. Not so with your alt. All you need to is set the macro and throw out perpetual services at all hours.
--The normal constraints that living players have do not apply to unattended characters. If you get bored? Simply switch to your alt and let the entertainer run. Players without two accounts, or those who enjoy physically playing their entertainers have constraints of playability placed upon them that your alt avoids through the macro system. In essance, an unattended character can do the job of the entertainer better than a player because a player cannot be available 24/7, give everything they have for no reward, not get bored, and pay $15 a month to do it.
And to say that unattended characters should not effect our outlook on the profession is to understand very little about the dynamics of how our market operates. I no longer even get calls from guilded players anymore, because they can get everything I have to give them through a buffbot. I no longer even get tips for services, because we have things like your alt giving away everything I can mechanically give them for free. True, I am a hoot to talk with, but characters today don't care about that. The new players have been getting their heals from bots for so long that they honestly have no idea that this profession can be played, and that the things we pride ourselves on like attentive and witty playare services that should berewarded. I can't tell you how many times I get /tells saying, "You know, you can macro and leave if you want," or, "why don't you break away from this and do something fun," or, "I hope that's a macro you aretelling me," or, "putting you on /addignore." The fact that the mechanics of the things I do like play and dance are so simple to mimic and perfect through the macro system means that players really do not see ANY value to anyone who hangs out at the cantina, and not only do they not tip me, but they think that I am somehow playing the game improperly or being wierdby even being at the keys and interacting.
So again, I ask you: If you had to spend x-ammount of skill points to be a dancer, but there was no healing benefit to the abilities, would you do it? I would, and I would venture to say my income wouldn't be very much affected for good or ill. What's more, it will get the clutter out of the cantinas and bring entertainment into something that makes sense. Because right now it doesn't. We have individuals like you who do this class simply because of the healing abilities, and not because they actually want to dance. Because Irarely ever get tipped for my healing services. I only ever get tipped for my creativity at player events and such, where I need not heal at all.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 04-12-2004 12:14 PM
Umm this brings up a pretty interesting thought... what if they killed the macro loop? Before I knew how to loop, I repeated the macro sequence about 20-30 times and watched for it to end then hit it again (did this to avoid carpal tunnel). This certainly kept me at the keyboard. I've done a bunch of artisan skills and never used a macro... sure it takes longer, but what's the rush? It's a game not a race. Boring? Maybe, but it's your choice... hologrinding is a choice too. If you want it bad enough, you'll do it with or without a macro loop. If you need to afk, you can always pickup where you left off. Maybe that's what they have planned once the new FS system is in place... killing the loop.
Just a thought, not a fact,no need to flame.
PoetDancer wrote:
Morath:
First of all, you don't even need stimpacks to run your alt. Just get a human or a rodian and migrate your stats on your greens to the max. Second of all, you cannot play a buffbot. Its impossible. You cannot physically be awake 24/7 and sacrifice everything the sheer availability to be utilized by everyone and anyone that comes by. However, we know that non players have effects on the game world as well, be it skilltape looters, or entertainers. Please keep the following in mind:
--It should be self-evidently obvious that unattended characters are not players. If you are not at the tools you need to play the game, you cannot play. Now I do not doubt that unattended characters influence the game world in a way that may mimic live play, and I'm not saying that unattended characters shouldn't exist. All I'm saying is that by no reasonable definition can you say an unattended character plays in any way that is consistant with what we commonly understand as the term. Play has to be enjoyable, but unattended characters have no real need for joy or success. They'll just simply do what they are programed to do whether the things they do are enjoyable or not.
--Entertainers were meant to be played by live players. If they weren't, then there wouldn't be three professions devoted to it or you could get the services through some NPC or crafted item. Im not saying that unattentiveness cannot be done, but I have a very difficult time believing that the developers inteded the lion's share of service to come from non-players.
--Entertainment services are the only services that do not require power, maitenance fees, or anything else to be distributed 24/7 for free. Your harvestors and factories require some maitenance or player effort to sustain them. Not so with your alt. All you need to is set the macro and throw out perpetual services at all hours.
--The normal constraints that living players have do not apply to unattended characters. If you get bored? Simply switch to your alt and let the entertainer run. Players without two accounts, or those who enjoy physically playing their entertainers have constraints of playability placed upon them that your alt avoids through the macro system. In essance, an unattended character can do the job of the entertainer better than a player because a player cannot be available 24/7, give everything they have for no reward, not get bored, and pay $15 a month to do it.
And to say that unattended characters should not effect our outlook on the profession is to understand very little about the dynamics of how our market operates. I no longer even get calls from guilded players anymore, because they can get everything I have to give them through a buffbot. I no longer even get tips for services, because we have things like your alt giving away everything I can mechanically give them for free. True, I am a hoot to talk with, but characters today don't care about that. The new players have been getting their heals from bots for so long that they honestly have no idea that this profession can be played, and that the things we pride ourselves on like attentive and witty playare services that should berewarded. I can't tell you how many times I get /tells saying, "You know, you can macro and leave if you want," or, "why don't you break away from this and do something fun," or, "I hope that's a macro you aretelling me," or, "putting you on /addignore." The fact that the mechanics of the things I do like play and dance are so simple to mimic and perfect through the macro system means that players really do not see ANY value to anyone who hangs out at the cantina, and not only do they not tip me, but they think that I am somehow playing the game improperly or being wierdby even being at the keys and interacting.
So again, I ask you: If you had to spend x-ammount of skill points to be a dancer, but there was no healing benefit to the abilities, would you do it? I would, and I would venture to say my income wouldn't be very much affected for good or ill. What's more, it will get the clutter out of the cantinas and bring entertainment into something that makes sense. Because right now it doesn't. We have individuals like you who do this class simply because of the healing abilities, and not because they actually want to dance. Because Irarely ever get tipped for my healing services. I only ever get tipped for my creativity at player events and such, where I need not heal at all.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 04-12-2004 12:14 PM
Great post thx. Here is a couple of points I would like to respond to.
First, to me it is enjoyable to disign a macro and see it work. Call me a computer geek, but its fun to use the macro language to me.
Second, I dont think the logic presented about what the devs intended is solid. Just because 3 professions are devoted to entertainer doesnt mean they were absolutely meant to be played 24/7 by a player. Please understand Im not trying to go to the extreme here. I see now that the bot shouldn't go 24/7 for clutter purposes.. Probably similiar to you understanding that afk was put there for a purpose.
Third, I don't see how maint and resources paid on factories are a show stopper on how they are similiar. Besides, I would still want to change up the location and the clothes on a regular basis. Just because its not a forced thing like maint and power shouldnt mean that there is no maint on the entertainer.
The fourth point you bring out again points back to the underlying issue of entertainers wanting to force keyboard presence.
All in all this was an excellent series of conversations. Normally you dont win or change peoples view of what they initially see. What I do see here is a lot of passion for this profession. I applaud this and being an honorable Klingon warrior...LOL I will respect the majority of the views here and NOT, I repeat NOT make a bot to run 24/7. Also, I will only buff friends in private using the 30 second whatever you call it exploit/glitch. I will honor the code of the entertainers.
Ok enough role playing there.. sorry I like Klingons.. Seriously, you all have made very good arguments for your profession. The least I can do to help you out is follow what you want..
Thx..
Qa'pla!!!
Message Edited by Morath360 on 04-13-2004 07:55 AM