Dancer Archive
Thread: SOEs Grand Experiment a failure ?
NewJedi
Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:55 pm
#14
I don't think it's been a failure. Actually, for the first few months of the game, right after launch, I thought the social side of the game worked pretty well. That was before people discovered the recursive macro. Obviously things have gone downhill since then, but sooner or later AFKing will be marginalized or eliminated altogether, and things will pick up. Of course, we'll also need a dozen new songs and lots of other new content to make our gameplay more interesting, but I still have fun just doing a gig for the heck of it, even now.
Echinacea
Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:49 pm
#16
I think the way the 'social' playstyle has been implemented has resulted in a failure. Expecting people to be satisfied with a graphical chatroom and not be able to do anything else is unrealistic. If I wanted a chatroom, I can get that for free all over the 'Net. I don't need to buy client software and pay server fees for it, unless I have a pressing reason other than being able to chat. And the graphical part ain't that great, if you never see more than the inside of the freakin' cantina.
Being social isn't something locked into what profession you choose. I can be social as a Droid Engineer, or a Carbineer, or any other combination of skills within SWG. Giving Entertainers not much else to do other than stand in one place and chat makes for not much entertainment for the player over a long period of time. Then making 3/4 of the Entertainer professions completely passive just throws dirt onto the coals.
It was a great idea. I was really looking forward to it. I don't think SOE's implementation of it has been adequate. I don't think anyone other than Raph ever gave more than a rodent's derriere about the whole idea, and I'm not too sure he gave more than a few passing thoughts to the whole idea. The entire setup feels skeletal and half-arsed to me.
Drygo
Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:59 pm
#17
I think Echinacea did a good job of summing it up. The Social Playstyle was not a failure. The way it was implemented was. The idea that the type of person attracted to a social playstyle wants nothing more than to sit around in a graphical chatroom is a huge mistake. I think most of us (or a good portion) want a little more substance and meat. Yeah, we might want to sit around and chat, but we want to do other stuff too, and be involved in the overall story arc and interdependence of the game. SWG made half assed attempts to give us that. But, they never followed through, nor did they listen to the cries of all the people over the past year and a half who have told them, with no room for misinterpration, that their stupid ass afk macro system was killing that playstyle.
It's sort of like when I played Sims Online before I came here. Obviously, I'm attracted to games with heavy social content. But, TSO was perpetually stagnant and offered nothing besides chatting. No danger, no excitement, no economy, no nothing. Bah. Boring. I eventually realized that was never gonna change so I moved over here. And, now I find that after a year of suffering and not given a purpose beyond a graphical chatroom, that we are going to have to quite possibly wait even another year...after the CU, the GCW, the first group of profession revamps...we're the 2nd, I think Panthu said? Bah, I say again. It's like deja vu all over again and I seriously question if it's worth the wait and the money that I give them every month for a promise that is so far into the future.
Electro
Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:28 pm
#18
I don't think there is any question that the grand experiment so far is a failure. And what worries me is that no one seems particularly to care that this is the case at SOE. Thus the prospects for long term success seem vanishingly small.
bawler14
Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:15 pm
#19
SOE's expirement hasn't failed... it just isn't living up to it's potential. If it "failed", how many live ents would still be playing? I assure you, not as many as there are today. I see the expirement as one which was started then forgotten in some dustly closet of the lab that is SOE. If they ever take it out and tweak it a little, it could be a huge success... and you can't go from total failure to success. However, you can go from underachieving to success.
Cudayn
Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:41 pm
#20
Tralmek wrote:
I've saidthis before, but it's been awhile so you all get to suffer though me saying it again.
Combat has been done over and over again, rehashed, reskinned, rebalanced in virtually every computer game ever made. Combat has been done, and every developer knows how to do it.
MMO's required something beyond combat, otherwise everyone might as well just have stuck with the multiplayer functions of normally single player RPG's. Thus,healing and craftingwere invented. These have been done and done again and again in the MMORPG's. Game developers have a great grasp on what to do to make crafting and medicalprofessions and keep the people in them pretty satisfied.
The Social Playstyle may have been somewhat hinted at in other games, but any Entertainers took what was (to my knowledge) a primarily healing-style role. Until SWG, no one had ever attempted a game with a dedicated social playstyle.
Combat, Healing, Crafting: these have already been done, all Galaxies needed to do was reskin and rebalance these for the Star Wars universe.
Entertaining: This is an entirely new playstyle, one that has absolutely no background, and in my humble opinion, is therefore in need of a good deal more attention from the Development team simply because this playstyle is something that hasn't been done before. This Development team had the opportunity to do something new in MMO gaming, but instead it chose to simply go back to rehashing combat and left the new playstyle somewhere off to the side, forgotten.
I don't think the Social experiment was a failure, I think SOE failed to follow through on the results gleaned from the experiment. Instead of working to mould and mature the Social professions into something workable for a massively multiplayer online community, they slapped the professions together, packaged up the game and then forgot to ever revisit their experiment.
We have a great foundation started, and a tight, strong community within the Social playstyle to help, so I don't think the Devs really need to rebuild our professions from the ground up. What they need to do is utilize the resources they have and start building on what they started. They need to take pride in the fact that they can accomplish something no other MMORPG devs have since the first MMOG--they have created a new playstyle that is fun, engaging, and competitive in the MMORPG world.
Well said.
Durney
DarkY0da
Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:19 am
#21
I would say Holo at least knew what he wanted with this playstyle more then anyone else he was working with knew. But I'm not sure that means he knew what he was doing. As in, how can anyone setting off down an un-trodden path, that no one has gone down before, really know what they are doing. They can have good ideas, good intentions(which path to where is paved with those...) and a good plan. But the moment they set foot on that path it allgets tossed upside down. I think we lost our hope(the foot went on the path) very, very early into the design and planning stages of this game.
Tralmek
Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:20 am
#22
I've saidthis before, but it's been awhile so you all get to suffer though me saying it again.
Combat has been done over and over again, rehashed, reskinned, rebalanced in virtually every computer game ever made. Combat has been done, and every developer knows how to do it.
MMO's required something beyond combat, otherwise everyone might as well just have stuck with the multiplayer functions of normally single player RPG's. Thus,healing and craftingwere invented. These have been done and done again and again in the MMORPG's. Game developers have a great grasp on what to do to make crafting and medicalprofessions and keep the people in them pretty satisfied.
The Social Playstyle may have been somewhat hinted at in other games, but any Entertainers took what was (to my knowledge) a primarily healing-style role. Until SWG, no one had ever attempted a game with a dedicated social playstyle.
Combat, Healing, Crafting: these have already been done, all Galaxies needed to do was reskin and rebalance these for the Star Wars universe.
Entertaining: This is an entirely new playstyle, one that has absolutely no background, and in my humble opinion, is therefore in need of a good deal more attention from the Development team simply because this playstyle is something that hasn't been done before. This Development team had the opportunity to do something new in MMO gaming, but instead it chose to simply go back to rehashing combat and left the new playstyle somewhere off to the side, forgotten.
I don't think the Social experiment was a failure, I think SOE failed to follow through on the results gleaned from the experiment. Instead of working to mould and mature the Social professions into something workable for a massively multiplayer online community, they slapped the professions together, packaged up the game and then forgot to ever revisit their experiment.
We have a great foundation started, and a tight, strong community within the Social playstyle to help, so I don't think the Devs really need to rebuild our professions from the ground up. What they need to do is utilize the resources they have and start building on what they started. They need to take pride in the fact that they can accomplish something no other MMORPG devs have since the first MMOG--they have created a new playstyle that is fun, engaging, and competitive in the MMORPG world.
AtheneNoctua
Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:52 am
#23
I think the grand experiment has shown two things: First, professions like entertainer (including squad leaders, smugglers, politicians and rangers to some extent) open up a vast potential market of people who would not oterwise play an MMORPG. As evident on these boards, these players tend to stick around even when they get frustrated. Furtermore, thanks to their so-called "social" playstyle, they know workarounds to many minor problems (from eavesdropping in the cantina) and are happy to instruct other players - in effect reducing load on the customer disservice department.
Secondly, players who chose an entertainer-like profession are different from both combatants and crafters. They have other priorities and consider different aspects of the game as vital to their experience.
From what I saw during beta and short after release, I consider the SWG game design being very well thought out. Its implementation - well one should not speak bad about the almost dead. Unfortunately, while many technical issues got improved since launch, almost every single change departed the game further from its roots (only random spawns? ). To me it looks as if there no longer is someone at SOE who has a coherent vision of what SWG should be like. Just look at the non-integration of JTL into the ground game.
I really, really hope there will be another MMORPG that will cater to the "social playstyle" as I don't think the current developers will be able to save the game. SWG has failed despite its vast potential has failed. Maybe the designers just wanted more than the current playerbase could handle
(I'm rather tired, so please ignore any spelling mistakes and inconsistencies. Thank you.)
Secondly, players who chose an entertainer-like profession are different from both combatants and crafters. They have other priorities and consider different aspects of the game as vital to their experience.
From what I saw during beta and short after release, I consider the SWG game design being very well thought out. Its implementation - well one should not speak bad about the almost dead. Unfortunately, while many technical issues got improved since launch, almost every single change departed the game further from its roots (only random spawns? ). To me it looks as if there no longer is someone at SOE who has a coherent vision of what SWG should be like. Just look at the non-integration of JTL into the ground game.
I really, really hope there will be another MMORPG that will cater to the "social playstyle" as I don't think the current developers will be able to save the game. SWG has failed despite its vast potential has failed. Maybe the designers just wanted more than the current playerbase could handle
(I'm rather tired, so please ignore any spelling mistakes and inconsistencies. Thank you.)
LeBob
Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:32 am
#24
I would not say that it is (permanently) a failure yet. It may be leaning towards failing currently (and since Launch : / ), but I beleive the cause is not lost just yet.
DarkY0da
Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:03 am
#25
"If you can't stand the waiting and would be happier quitting till things are fixed, you should and you shouldn't feel guilty about it. I was told to pass that along"
"They(The Devs)just feel that we weren't implemented correctly and there are some major design flaws with our original concept. They say that the ability to completely automate our prof through the macro system was a mistake, but nothing short of a major coding and design effort will be able to fix it. That has to be put after the CU (they were promised first) and a few other already scheduled items. " - Panthu
Ahh hmm I guess that sort of answer the question well enough eh.
DarkY0da
Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:04 am
#26
"If you can't stand the waiting and would be happier quitting till things are fixed, you should and you shouldn't feel guilty about it. I was told to pass that along"
"They(The Devs)just feel that we weren't implemented correctly and there are some major design flaws with our original concept. They say that the ability to completely automate our prof through the macro system was a mistake, but nothing short of a major coding and design effort will be able to fix it. That has to be put after the CU (they were promised first) and a few other already scheduled items. " - Panthu
Ahh hmm I guess that sort of answer the question well enough eh.