Dancer Archive
Thread: An idea to nix bots (not mine I might add but spreading the word)
I really like the idea of a buff window, but instead of it being a pop-up window (I agree thatthose would get annoying), can we have something where if somebody watches you, you get a system message, and then you can click on your customer and select "Offer Buff" (or something similar) from the radial menu? After you offer the buff, you get the buff window.
Not sure if this will be able to be implemented in a non-AFKable sort of way, just trying to avoid a pop-up....with what I think might be a run-on sentence. 
Message Edited by sarahwojo on 07-28-2005 12:05 PM
Well, let's talk about the interface being the only thing needed. Because I really don't see the point of wasting our patron's time with /watching a dance, when it does them no good unless we both sort through an interface first. Furthermore, I really don't see the point of having tomaintain a dancing stateto sort through this interface.
When we have an interface, we don't need to dance anymore, because the dance really doesn't do much on its own. In fact, the dance becomes a burden, and a timesink, especially to our patrons. If all we are really expected to do is sort through an interface, then that is the only thing we really will get tipped for in the end.
And its not that I am even worried about us here. We know what we should be doing in the cantina. However, the dancers who will benefit the most out of this won't even need to care about putting on a show. They will just set an autoclicker, and use spam to sequence a process.
I can deal with unattendees. What I cannot deal with are unattendees who can sort through an interface because of a preprogrammed routine. And it will happen. Bots will continue under this system, unabated, through autoclickers and timed spam to sequence the process. They will not be banned. They will not be removed, and they will not, because CS has done nothing to the many characters already on the servers doing these exact same sorts ofthings.
But whatthis systemwill do is make it that much more difficult of a proposition to satisfy an audience. Because it will simply be a prerequisite to doingthe onlyreal role that will matter to anyone, which is not to amuse, but to successfully navigate through an interface.
And if that is the only real thing we are expected to do for a patron, then my only question is, why do we need a cantina to do this, why do we even need to be /dancing to do it, and why do we need the patron to even have to /watch in order to get it?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-28-2005 12:08 PM
oh stop being a grumpy poop head.
no where did people say that we didn't want to be dancing. we're trying to figure out a way to benefit those who play ATK instead of AFK is all. You don't have to participate in inspiration buffing if you chose not to. I even thought of you Sirii! I believe my original post (got I gotta find it now) stated that the customer walks to us /watch uses radial menu to request a buff. A window pops up on my screen in a random location (thumpers or mouse simulators will not work) saying so and so wants a buff. Will you buff him? I can accept or decline. And don't forget the /offduty or whatever you want to call it so you don't see any popups and customer gets a message that the dancer isn't currently offering inspirations.
I agree with Goldy, the pop-up/interface would be much more difficult to autoclick through and as for dancing, yeah they're gonna have to sit there and watch us. We're dancers they have to put up with the dancing lol if they want a good buff. Again the interfce/popup/whatever is a firewall to prevent afk bots from being able to macro through the darn thing. The fame rating could play into this, making atk dancers with good fame standing able to give better buffs/benefits thus encouraging real dancing.
Its not really that much to be scared of... Its a heck of alot less scary then HI MY NAME IS DOLLY! LET ME HEAL YOUR MIND... DANCERS NEED TO PAY RENT TO. IF YOU TIP WELL YOU CAN END UP ON MY TOP TIPPERS LIST. /smile... HI MY NAME IS DOLLY! LET ME.... 
If you all want to go down this road, then all I can do is voice my concern, and let us make the same mistakes we made before.
This class was made to be passive. And as long as we are required to dance, and the audience is required to /watch, it will always be passive. And that doesn't mean it can't be played, just because its passive. Nor does it mean that just because something is actively applied, it cannot be automated. It can.
But I am not even going to attempt to argue this here. What I am going to argue, is that if we are really serious about doing something like this, then we must work to simplify the process, streamline it, and make it elegant in its application. Because the system as it is explained here is just a hodge-podge of active and passive features, that may not create the sort of atmosphere we need in order to have fun playing, and maintain a fun atmosphere for the patrons we serve.
If what we want is a real active application of buffs, then what we must do is to eliminate the remaining passive elements, and make our gameplay similar to doctors. Its not a matter of choice. We must do it. And the reason we must do it is because, what happens when something goes wrong on the end of the process we cannot control, from either side of the stage?
In order to make something like this work, what we need is the following:
1) Instant application. No more "authorizing a /watch." If they want a buff, we click on what needs to be clicked, and they get it instantly. If we cannot bring ourselves to do this, then any interaction after the initial active thing we do will most likely be seen as a negative interaction, a forced interaction, or a timesink by the patrons we serve. And that is conterproductive to what we are trying to accomplish in the cantina.
2)No need for any coordination of a procedure on the patron's part. If they ask for it, and we are responsible for giving it, then we need to be able to give it without any real coordination on their part. If theplayer iswatching us (as in, visually seeing us through their monitor), and we are ultimately responsible for giving them the goodie they come to receive, it seems to be redundant that their character also has to /watch us (as in, click on a radial menu, or type /watch). If what we want is to give a buff, let us really give a buff. We wouldn't mind the calls of "can u buff me" if we actually could buff them. But the problem was, half the process was not under our control. So even if we did everything right, but the patron did something wrong, we nevertheless were culpable.
3)I would even go so far as to say we really shouldn't need a venue anymore in order to do this sort of thing. If the patron wants the enhancement, we should be able to grant it anywhere, just like doctors. If the burden is to rest on us to "grant" the buff specifically to a patron, then why should we even be chained to a venue anymore? Just to pay homage to a passive system, that made travel to a venue the only limiting factor that needed to be considered? If we are going to abandon passivity, and abandon transparency, then we won't need to worry anymore about maintaining the facade of being "cantina professions." We will be active buffers, similar to doctors, who provide their own, self-governing limitation, rather than a system-imposed one.
So, I am not saying that it is wrong for us to want the sort of "active arrangement" we have here. What I am saying, is that if we are to go this route, that we simplify the process, strip away all the anecdotal vestiges of the former passive system, and make the gameplay undeniably active, so there are no accusations of "forcing players into playstyles," creating "needless timesinks," and the inevitable, "I could care less about the performance. I just want the buff."
The original poster just said, "Its not really that much to be scared of... Its a heck of alot less scary then HI MY NAME IS DOLLY! LET ME HEAL YOUR MIND... DANCERS NEED TO PAY RENT TO. IF YOU TIP WELL YOU CAN END UP ON MY TOP TIPPERS LIST. /smile... HI MY NAME IS DOLLY! LET ME.... " But don't we see that this is exactly the sort of dancer that will benefit from the system outlined above? Because that dancer, with active buffing controls, can sit back with the screen on minimize, listen for the E-Mail beep, and maximize just long enough to click on the interface, and be done with it.
We are going through an awful lot of effort to create a cumbersome, contrived system just to get rid of the apathy in the cantina, and its not even we here in this forum that are responsible for the apathy. My only question is, why does "the active thing we do" have to be done while we are in the midst of dancing, making our performance about things that have nothing to do with performance? Why can't we activate the environment surrounding the profession, before and after we start dancing, so thatdancers will have to pick up and go in order to make the most out of the class, rather than simply maintain the current paradigm of "exist, hope someone will need us, authorize, and repeat?"
There are better ways to get what we want. This solution sells us short.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-28-2005 01:35 PM
I'm blasted confused now, lol. You've got some good points I suppose, I mean your arguement is very eloquent and seems well thought out I just think if you want things the way you're talking maybe you should drop entertainer and be a doc 
. The more I read about this the more it seems like the best way to prevent the horrors you're talking about is the put this hand in hand with a fame system...
-I haven't read all the posts about this system idea but I gather ideas have followed these lines: number of people watching you, perhaps a viewer vote on your performance level, entertainer quests, etc. all go towards your fame rating. Someone with a higher fame rating ideally should be able to give out better buffs/benefits (I keep listing both because I'm sure there some benefit other then buffs that can be attained from watching a dancer/musician I just can't think of a specific off the top of my head right now).
-I agree we shouldn't be stuck in the cantinas to do this, similar to docs. Its a place where you know you can find entertainers but not our jail.
-If someone starts watching and does a /requestbuff or whatever, the inferface, or popup, or system message (maybe similar to a trade?) pops up and you can either confirm/select/etc. to make the buff start going. Like inspiration buffs, the longer they watch, the better the buff HOWEVER the fame rating is the looming feature over this. Someone who just clicks the magic button on the interface and does their macro dance won't be able to give as good of a buff/benefit because its natural their fame rating won't be as high (because there's no effort). Also if you don't want the pop up bothering you, you can always do a /offduty or whatever.
Is it foolproof? No, but its a step in the right direction I think. I know we all rip on the devs and CSR's alot but we gotta realize these are people doing a job, they're not big brother and this is not high school lol. This is a good idea and its not entirely impossible that it could be put into the works. Agreeing with Goldy its not the saving grace for entertainers but its a good idea that could help the profession which is why I'm continuing to support it. Everyone is so worked up about any change bringing bots back i think any suggestion to calm those fears is worth a shot.
And like I said, not trying to be rude, but if you want things so automated with no "timesinks', go be a doc. It can be pretty fun and it sounds like more of what you're looking for.
Message Edited by JettVega on 07-28-2005 06:05 PM
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-28-2005 08:59 PM
Jagii wrote:
JettVega, when you talk about getting rid of bots, are you talking about removing the ability to set up a buff macro, or to get rid of the bots (macro and avatar) altogether?
Bleh just nevermind.
Its not like the devs would ever take the time to make us economically viable based on offering a service rather than having it leeched off of us. It was just a thought I had and never claimed it to be the end all savior of entertainers anyway.
Message Edited by SkySCREAMER on 07-28-2005 03:16 PM
Okay... this is more for my own self-assuring but let me clarify something first lol. I'm a smart person, I was salutatorian of my class, I work a professional job, I'm one semester away from my first college degree, I write fiction novels... but all the big words and long replies are really confusing me as to what you're trying to get across . No offense intended of course, but I'm just saying that I'm missing the point of what you're trying to say in the jumble of ideas and words. A couple points from what I gathered:
A) You like the current system where we dance to entertain. That's cool, I don't have that many problems with the current system either because I also dance to entertain 
. However, a concern that a great deal of dancers have and even to a degree, I myself have is that according to in-game mechanics, there is no benefit beyond a relaxing break or RP to watching an entertainer. I can live with this but if there were some means to plug us into the rest of the player base with a different sort of benefit (doesn't have to be a buff, but that's where people seem to lean) it could add an extra level to our profession.
B) You want an elegant, passive, and streamlined system: while this sounds very nice, I have no clue as to how this translates into a game system. Could it work? Yeah, I just don't know what kind of system this would be because there is no suggestion for a type of system that fills this role. The problem with streamlined is this: its easy to macro/autoclick/afk . You throw in a couple random stops here and there, suddenly people have to stay at the keyboard. I do agree it has potential for exploit but instead of just saying it can't work, how about some viablesuggestions to make it work with what you're suggesting. Everyone's all up in arms that any change to dancer/musician will bring back bots. Any step beyond that opens the doors to a whole new world of possibilities which is why I brought this up
C) The fame system: again, I don't have all the details of it. A vote system does have mass exploitation potential. So how could we get around that? One vote per player maybe? Partially quest based? As much as I like using recursive macros for certain things, if they need to go to give the profession back itself maybe that's what needs to be done. I'd prefer an addition or revamp of a new system to a nerf but hey if this idea won't work then I've yet to hear some other suggestions.
What I'm trying to say is in short, sweet, to the point language could you give some suggestions as to A) how this could be made to work, B) what the streamlined system you're talking about would entail, C) Some other suggestionon howthe devs can make a move forward with this profession. 
Not to derail..honestly..but potential for exploitation is the stumbling block with the Fame idea right now. If anyone has an interesting idea of how to prevent that, you might want to start it as a new thread.
JettVega wrote:
C) The fame system: again, I don't have all the details of it. A vote system does have mass exploitation potential. So how could we get around that? One vote per player maybe? Partially quest based? As much as I like using recursive macros for certain things, if they need to go to give the profession back itself maybe that's what needs to be done. I'd prefer an addition or revamp of a new system to a nerf but hey if this idea won't work then I've yet to hear some other suggestions.
Message Edited by Esharra on 07-29-2005 01:20 PM
/applaud Shi'ann
I think that's probably the best solution yet!