Dancer Archive
Thread: Cantina Crawl IX Debrief
IrinaStarsinger
Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:38 am
#14
'such infractions are not desirable'
INFRACTIONS?? Hmm.. must have Missed the RULES posted somewhere. That explains it. No one told me where the Cantina Crawl Rules and Regulations are.
'however much you strayed from the expectations of the event'
Hmm... must have missed those too. The EXPECTATIONS... Where were those posted???
Javier asked for feedback. I ASSUMED that meant ..Opinions, ideas, feelings. I guess I misunderstood and one is only supposed to say Nice things and that everything was perfect and wonderfu and coulnt Possibly be bettel. Praise great Javier and bestow benedictions or joy and honor on him and his descendents?
I Like Javier. I have great respect for him and the work he and the others have done. I'm very grateful he and the others have gone to the effort of setting up the Cantina Crawlsand doing videos for them and spending his time and effort on them. I also think that his work and videos may have played some part in getting SOE to act on our concerns. If so, his contribution to the profession dwarfs anything anyone else has done in the last year.
In FACT, Javier answered my concerns quite clearly and concisely and put to rest my concens over the things I expressed.
Being a Dancer stems from a couple things in my case. I like having Fun and I like Expressing myself.I DO enjoy dancing in a Chorus line SOMETIMES. The effect is great and can be striking. I enjoy dressing just like everyone else.. SOMETIMES. That too can create a nice effect. But If wearing a uniform and working a chorus line is what Cantina Crawls are supposed to be about then thanks, but I'll pass next time.
To me thats not Dance and I'd be disappointed if I thought that's how Javier saw Dance.
If we're doing a Public performance like the Jams where we have a significant audience and the organizers of the event want everyone to dress alike and give a performance fine. At the last Jam I made Sure that whatI was wearing matched what everyone Else was wearing and I cooperated fully when dances were selected. I have no problem with that if that is the Purpose of the event.
A Cantina Crawl , as several people explained to me, obviously incorrectly, is for entertainers to get together with Other entertainers and have fun and celebrate Dance and Music.
Lianne
Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:05 am
#15
Euclase,
I have no intention of turning this into any kind of argument. You posted your opinions and views and I posted mine in response. Since we clearly saw things from very different perspectives, I was merely attempting to help you understand some of the reasons you may have received comments about not 'falling into line', none of which were from me I might add, so this is far from personal.
If we're going to throw quotes around tho :
'Javier asked for feedback. I ASSUMED that meant ..Opinions, ideas, feelings. I guess I misunderstood and one is only supposed to say Nice things and that everything was perfect and wonderfu and coulnt Possibly be bettel. Praise great Javier and bestow benedictions or joy and honor on him and his descendents?'
I ampositive any and all feedback is received gratefully by Javier, good or bad. He responds to it all with grace and dignity. Praise him ? Yes, if you feel he deserves it and I wholeheartedly do. What he manages to do in each of these Crawls is get an ever increasing group of live entertainers together, organise them to some degree into a force to be reckoned with and show them off to the community as the true face of entertainment on Bria. He sweeps the cobwebs of AFKers and buffbots aside and says "Hey! We're live and kicking, never forget that !"
THAT is his true goal with these events, so forgive me if I praise him too highly but in my view it is more than well-deserved.
'If wearing a uniform and working a chorus line is what Cantina Crawls are supposed to be about then thanks, but I'll pass next time.'
Perhaps the suggestion should be to drop the 'uniform' idea from the Crawls in future. It would certainly make life a LOT easier for the organisers and certainly reduce the amount of frustration felt by some when waiting for their costumes or when trying to get the attention of an organiser to get themselves fixed up. Its a perfectly reasonable suggestion, but my personal opinion is that it would lessen the impact on the community by a large degree. We want to be seen to be working together, making ourselves seen and heard in a demonstration of our commitment to our profession.
I also strongly believe that the majority of those attending actually love the fact that they get to wear matching clothes with a few dozen other dancers/musicians and is part of the appeal of participation.
Your Chorus Line comments seem unfair to me. Whilst the dancers do get into large groups and do generally work together (and put on some great displays!) individual flair is also encouraged. Noone has ever instructed me to return to formation when I've left the 'Chorus Line' to dance apart with my friends or my wife for a while. Dance is about expression, not regulation, it just happens that people enjoy synch dancing in large groups, and the Crawls are one of the few opportunities to actually find large groups of Live entertainers to do it with.
'A Cantina Crawl , as several people explained to me, obviously incorrectly, is for entertainers to get together with Other entertainers and have fun and celebrate Dance and Music.'
I suppose its too late to encourage your belief that this in fact is precisely the case. I would only like to apologise that you took any offense at my words/wording in my previous post since, as I took yours to be, it was based only upon my own opinions.
With respect,
Lianne.
IrinaStarsinger
Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:34 am
#16
I guess what bother me Lianne is that in This thread as in so many others there seems to be a.. Ruling Consensus. Javier asked for feedback. Everyone responded with Hey great job. Wonderful. Perfect. Couldn't be better.
I have more respect for Javier than to assume he asked the question to have his ego stroked. And so I Gave him my opinion and feelings on the matter and his response, as always, was gracious, well thought out and allayed a lot of my concerns. To me, that ended the matter.
I expressed my feeligns on it as he ASKED for and his reply made me go.. Oh. Okay. Good enough.
So why do other feel impelled to convince me that my Feelings, my Opinion and my Observations are wrong????? Does Javier need.. Defending form the likes of ME?? Is Criticism now considered.. Attack? Is voicing an opinion contrary to the majority something that needs to be 'Corrected'?
I've run into this a number of times when I foolishly voiced an opinion other than KILL the BUFFBOTS!
Despite what you and others seem to think.. There ARE different ways of looking at things. There ARE differring opinions. There ARE different perspectives.I like Blueberry preserves on my toast. My husband like Strawberry. It's never really occurred to me to try and convince himthat hes Wrong and he SHOULD like Blueberry instead of Strawberry. But then.. Thats just me.
picklesSW
Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:57 am
#17
"I thought he would be more of a boxer guy"
Hawtpants, baby. I'm the original minimalist.
As for the rest, all opinions and feedback are welcomed. There's no way I can please everyone, so I just muddle through as best I can. It saddens me to see people at odds over something like this, but I'm well aware that we have a very passionate crowd of people in this industry, and I relish that too.
Thanks for the feedback, thanks for the continued support.
Hawtpants, baby. I'm the original minimalist.
As for the rest, all opinions and feedback are welcomed. There's no way I can please everyone, so I just muddle through as best I can. It saddens me to see people at odds over something like this, but I'm well aware that we have a very passionate crowd of people in this industry, and I relish that too.
Thanks for the feedback, thanks for the continued support.
kirah_ashlin
Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:08 am
#18
Eucy, I let Javy know in PM or /tell if I have anything to say that might be construed as negative rather than air them in public. That's just my "different" way of doing things.
picklesSW
Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:25 am
#19
I don't care how the feedback gets to me, so long as it does. There's also a forum over at the gypsy site which typically has a thread for each crawl as well. I'm not afraid to get criticized in public if people want to post here. Truth be told, praise makes me squirm more than criticism, but it's important to get a balance. If I thought everyone disliked the crawls, I'd stop them.
Out of 70+ people, there will always be a few that feel raw. I run on the assumption that the other 65 or so were pretty happy.
And to those who tell me I'm working too hard, or pity me because I may get some backlash, it's all part of running large events, and I enjoy the challenge else I wouldn't do it.
The part I really miss is actually being able to participate in the event rather than film it, but I'm lining up a DP for the next one so I can dance.
Out of 70+ people, there will always be a few that feel raw. I run on the assumption that the other 65 or so were pretty happy.
And to those who tell me I'm working too hard, or pity me because I may get some backlash, it's all part of running large events, and I enjoy the challenge else I wouldn't do it.
The part I really miss is actually being able to participate in the event rather than film it, but I'm lining up a DP for the next one so I can dance.
Lianne
Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:59 am
#20
-hugs Euclase-
To finish up this debate we seem to have started, and to reassure Javier no-one is truly 'at odds', I just want to say I had no intention of telling you that you were wrong. Your feelings are your own, noone else's to manipulate or alter by mere words on a forum. The point is that itis in fact a forum, and my response to your post was simply me airing my own opinions on your comments. I stated several times I did not seek to prove you wrong or change your mind.
I'm not a frequent poster, and truth be told, I probably wouldnt have posted at all had Javier's own reply been present when I read yours. As you can see, mine was posted 20mins after his and I hadn't seen it before I butted in with my own thoughts. My intent was neither to criticise or inflame you, only to offer my perspective on the subject.
All that said, I repeat my apologies if you took my words too much to heart.
ArgentWulf
Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:24 am
#21
Don't take this the wrong way Javy but sc#$% the video if you're not having fun. I mean I love them and all but the crawls were and always have been about friends getting to gether and having a good time.
I can't say as I was around at the very first one but I think I've been to more then not. AS for the "uniforms" we didn't always dress alike. The costumes stemmed from when we where only a handful and just wanted a theme or certain look to the crawls there never has been a "dress code".
I made a statement in-game awhile ago that I thought that the Crawls may have become too big. I was told by several people in no uncertain terms that they couldn't get too big. What started out as a simple gathering of Ents has, andI cant stressenough that this is MY opinon,turned into nearly a logistic and production nightmare. Seeing ALL the Ents together in one place IS fantastic but trying to coordinate 70+ participants via keyboard input is to say the least a daunting task.
So anyway whenever you have more then one person in a group there will be a difference of opinion this is good as longas one can respect the others opinion even if you don't share it.
No matter what Javy keep doing the Crawls (with or without vid).
I was going to post something here but I think I will do it in its thread.
Esharra
Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:52 am
#22
I'm with Lei on this. The crawls are supposed to be about us getting together and having fun. I've been worried for a few weeks that the focus was getting away from that.
picklesSW
Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:38 am
#23
Ah, don't get me wrong, I also love cutting video. It's sort of a win-lose thing. If I shoot during the event, I get the joy of cutting a new video together. If I enjoy the crawl as a participant, I don't get the joy of cutting a video.
I too am mixed a bit on the popularity of the crawls. It can be difficult, but it's also awfully impressive to see so many entertainers jamming together, and my heart leaps when I see how many still do enjoy the hell out of dancing and playing music.
I know that some of it stems from cutting videos. A lot of people get a real kick out of being featured in a video, and I can't blame them at all. In addition, I cannot ignore the fact that perhaps these videos (and the videos produced by others that feature entertainers) and these events are having an effect on our popularity, and bringing entertainers to light in the eyes of the rest of the player base, and perhaps the development team. This can only be a good thing.
I never really envisioned being where I am today. People, random strangers, stop me in the game and ask "Are you the guy who does the crawls?" It was never my intention to become famous or to be some sort of community leader. It was never my intention for Bria to become some sort of entertainer mecca, partially because of the crawls. This thing just sort of took on a life of its own beyond my control, and I'm just trying to enjoy the ride.
You might be shocked to learn that I really don't understand why so many people enjoy the crawls. I have no idea why they come out. Perhaps it's because with the UI off, I don't get to see the conversations, the jabs, the humor, the songs and the fun. I can only imagine what people say about me as I crawl at their feet in my orange jumpsuit. This is why I'm going to get someone else to shoot the video next time. I need to get back in touch.
I've rambled enough!
I too am mixed a bit on the popularity of the crawls. It can be difficult, but it's also awfully impressive to see so many entertainers jamming together, and my heart leaps when I see how many still do enjoy the hell out of dancing and playing music.
I know that some of it stems from cutting videos. A lot of people get a real kick out of being featured in a video, and I can't blame them at all. In addition, I cannot ignore the fact that perhaps these videos (and the videos produced by others that feature entertainers) and these events are having an effect on our popularity, and bringing entertainers to light in the eyes of the rest of the player base, and perhaps the development team. This can only be a good thing.
I never really envisioned being where I am today. People, random strangers, stop me in the game and ask "Are you the guy who does the crawls?" It was never my intention to become famous or to be some sort of community leader. It was never my intention for Bria to become some sort of entertainer mecca, partially because of the crawls. This thing just sort of took on a life of its own beyond my control, and I'm just trying to enjoy the ride.
You might be shocked to learn that I really don't understand why so many people enjoy the crawls. I have no idea why they come out. Perhaps it's because with the UI off, I don't get to see the conversations, the jabs, the humor, the songs and the fun. I can only imagine what people say about me as I crawl at their feet in my orange jumpsuit. This is why I'm going to get someone else to shoot the video next time. I need to get back in touch.
I've rambled enough!
bawler14
Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:14 am
#24
Just an observation on the entire Uniform thing... in past crawls (pre-videos), we were given a color scheme. Everyone came dressed in those colors.
However as the crawls have grown, cross server attendees are not able to aquire color schemed clothing by their own means. Now though, after 4 crawls, many have started to establish themselves to the point where they can aquire their own clothing given a color scheme.
Back in the day, an occasional person wouldn't be able to aquire a matching outfit and Javier would wip something up. But I've seen from the Musician side, that most attendees can get an outfit before hand, if they take the time.
Doing away with the entire outfit thing and going instead with a Theme/Color Scheme, might make it easier on people, giving the group a cohesive look, all the while allowing individuality.
IrinaStarsinger
Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:02 pm
#25
Let me give you an example of what I was taking about.
Year 1:
Back in 1966, three couples in a bar in downtown Fairbanks came up with an idea over one too many drinks. A homemade raft race down the Tanana River from Fairbanks to the town of Nenana, about 60 miles. They mentioned it to some other folks the next day and it caught on. a month later the race was held. Several hundred people showed up. Everyone pitched in 5$ There were THREE (3) rules and they all had to do with the safety issue. The winners got a case of cheap champagne. Everyone else got a bottle of beer.
It was BLAST!!!!
Year 2:
The next year was even better. Over 700 people showed up and though it was a total mixup from start to finish even though there were now about 30 rules and an organizing committee, like true Alaskans, we ignored all of them. The entry fee was $15. Pretty much everyone had fun.
Year 3:
The thrid year things were very well organized. $30 entry fee. 2 page entry form. Published book of rules and regulations. well over 1500 people showed up, many from other countries. Safety teams on hand to inspect all rafts and safety crews on boats in case someone got stuck (the river is shallow). It was fun. Drinking was strongly discouraged.
Year 4:
Organization team spent the year prior to the race organizing. Every who filled out the application forms (required 60 days in advance), submitted their $75 entry feeand was accepted received their bound rule book in the mail. All rafts had to be in place 3 days before the race and pass a Coast Guard safety inspection and to ensure no alcoholic beverages were present. Emergency helicopters were on hand as well as paramedic crews at the start, finish, and in the safety boats along the route. 400 hundred people showed up. It was a real drag for the most part.
Year 5:
Who knows. We wereall drinking in the bars late night in Fairbanks and having a few too many drinks.
Vorpaks
Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:19 pm
#26
Hehe. Drat. I like the uniforms and organization. Must be the marching band geek in me. Everytime I go to one of these things the patterns and set-up seems more complex. And complex = intersting for me. I have begun to feel like part of a real dance troupe, rather than just a bunch of schmoes standing around in a group (in front of the door) jamming. This is what we used to do on Radiant, and it was great fun and I still love doing it - but this is more sophisticated.
The last cantina crawl I went to I barely watched group chat. Most of the time I was panned out as far as I could go just watching the groups, the synchronized bandflos, and thinking - wow. It is like watching the stage show Blast! (Basically marching band on stage) I had a bunch of friends who were in it. As I watched them I knew that everything was carefully timed, every move happened exactly a certain way, exactly on cue, and every player had a little voice in their head going click, click, click, click, counting out the beats until the next move, the next change of step - but even knowing this the overall effect was one of wonder and awe.
Thats how I felt watching the last crawl I was in, and how I feel everytime I watch one of the videos. Wonder and awe. I can't help but believe that even the most jaded combat-monster would feel the same way if he wandered into one of these cantinas.
I would say I'm sorry for cross-server crashing your parties but I can't bring myself to regret it. I've met some really excellent people, and memories of the crawls and practices between have brought me many smiles and much happiness. However, if you ever decide to close the crawls, and make them Bria-only or invitation-only there will be no hard feelings either. It won't lessen the fun I have already had. And eep. I'd hate to think I am helping to turn your parties mainstream.
The last cantina crawl I went to I barely watched group chat. Most of the time I was panned out as far as I could go just watching the groups, the synchronized bandflos, and thinking - wow. It is like watching the stage show Blast! (Basically marching band on stage) I had a bunch of friends who were in it. As I watched them I knew that everything was carefully timed, every move happened exactly a certain way, exactly on cue, and every player had a little voice in their head going click, click, click, click, counting out the beats until the next move, the next change of step - but even knowing this the overall effect was one of wonder and awe.
Thats how I felt watching the last crawl I was in, and how I feel everytime I watch one of the videos. Wonder and awe. I can't help but believe that even the most jaded combat-monster would feel the same way if he wandered into one of these cantinas.
I would say I'm sorry for cross-server crashing your parties but I can't bring myself to regret it.
I've met some really excellent people, and memories of the crawls and practices between have brought me many smiles and much happiness. However, if you ever decide to close the crawls, and make them Bria-only or invitation-only there will be no hard feelings either. It won't lessen the fun I have already had. And eep. I'd hate to think I am helping to turn your parties mainstream.