Dancer Archive
Thread: CU Update: Blair on Ents
Landlubber
Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:40 am
#14
Panthu wrote:
Landlubber wrote:
If this statement comes from (what Panthu seems to assume) is our best hope and staunchest supporter from among the Devs,....
I didn't say he was our only supporter, I said he was the only one I ever met who loved the old original plan. *points up to Else's post*
Every Dev I ever met as a Corr liked Ents and had ideas about us and for us. Blair's were just pretty much exactly unchanged from concept unlike the other Devs I talked to. He didn't seem to think things needed to be added, he seemed to think we needed to just get back to what we had been... which Else seems to have described perfectly from my understanding.
Okay, fair enough. But even if most of my first post was a knee-jerk reaction (really shouldn't post within minutes of reading any Dev statement about entertainers...), this original entertainer concept hasn't really been implemented too well, if at all.
I mean that from a game design point of view,similar cost (skill points) and effort (time invested) should result in similar rewards to make a profession viable within an MMO. It's this whole thing called Balance. I know that any MMO struggles with this to a greater or lesser degree, and it is probably the single hardest thing to get right. There will always be imbalances, be they real or perceived.
My point is thatone perception of the entertainer community right now is that our professions are horribly imbalanced when you compare their cost/reward ratio to most others within this game.
Another perception is that the Developers do not seem to be willing to put in any significant effort to correct this situation, or even to comment on it (to basically say "Yes, we realize we need to work on your professions because we want you to beuseful and wantedin the large scheme of things").
In the end, it's all about perception. That is a very subjective thing to be sure, but it is something the Developers should take into account nonetheless. This is a product they are trying to sell us, and they have to ask themselves "How will this look to the customers?"
And I seriously wonder if they ask themselves this question at all when it comes to their intended target audience for entertainer professions. They probably do - but are they arriving at the correct answers? Or do they seriously think that all is well and that most of us are happy? And if they don't think that, what do they intend to do about it?
Einhinder
Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:22 am
#15
Panthu wrote:
LyteFoot wrote:
This is fine Panthu but I thought buffs were put in the game to give us some way to make credits. Some people tip purely for entertaining but not many so what else do we have to "sell"?
That wasn't in the original concept from what I understand. I actually was playing and dancing in game before the targeted mind buffs hit, I wasn't a master yet but I was beyond Novice Dancer so I do have blurry memories of the change from a first hand experience, but that's it.
People who were masters before that really have to tell me what it was like. I personally always liked the mind duties we had and wanted to see those enhanced in a very Healer like way, but Blair is not on for that plan so I highly doubt that's in our cards at all now.
What has been discussed has been a positive effect on Cantinas for others something like a city rested bonus found in some games and a sort of "Cantina Salary" that Dancers and Musicians could get from the system for performing in a Cantina... but I don't know how Blair feels about these things. When I asked him, he said "yeah, maybe" and not much more, lol.
So, I don't know if that is something he wants to include (with the new rested bonus working like the initial concept behind passive mind buffs and the salary working to avoid us basically being poor in the original concept), or if he really just plans on taking us back to square one period and forgetting that targeted buffs and any concept of an active way to make money or do anything other than be in the Cantinas and chat ever happened.
I just don't know, that's why I'm posting this here. I'd like for us to all try to help each other work through this and help each other basically not freak out. Also, if Blair is really going to be giving us some real feedback, I think we all need to try to be asking the right questions in these feedback threads.
i was a master before targted mind buffs hit (thnks a a commando who loved to flame up the cantina in ah and create tons o battle fatigue <3 odaus)
honestly we didnt really care to much about mind buffs targeted or otherwise back when people were civil and respected us still at leat in my opinion he greatestthing about mind buff was that they gave us more power over those who didnt respect us oh you want a mind buff but your goingto treat me like that i dont think so no buff for you /group no one buff this guys hes a moron
thats what i liked about mind buffs that it gave us a viabla tangable way to not only make money but gain apprpriate reatment from the uber leet combat folk. well at lesttill the afl epidemic
for all i really care im not gonna miss mind buffing all that much I would however like some viable tangeble way to make money and gain respect from the rest of the community
to be honest money never really bothered with with th advent of buffbotts and afkers ir wasnt my loss of income so much as it was my loss of being treated like a human being.
darn you panthu now you got me all nostalgic thining abput whn i first started when every dancers in the cantina was in the noob diaper outit and someone discovered what happen when you yped lol so we all had to go thru all the emotes and laughing hysterically at the flourishes as someone got a new dance.
Panthu
Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:07 am
#16
Einhinder wrote:
darn you panthu now you got me all nostalgic thining abput whn i first started when every dancers in the cantina was in the noob diaper outit and someone discovered what happen when you yped lol so we all had to go thru all the emotes and laughing hysterically at the flourishes as someone got a new dance.
I know! Me too! I mean, I remember dancing and getting tipped for BF healing. I remember loving popping in to visit the Cantina Rats that really did love living there and chatting full time... there was a lot that was really cool.
I'm just really mixed. It's hard for me to just forget everything that it looks like hasn't worked... but on the other hand, a lot did work! *le sigh* See? This is why I just keep staying hopeful and posting, lol.
kirah_ashlin
Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:09 am
#17
Okay, it's going to take me a while to digest this thread, but so far I am an unhappy little dancer. Pan, if you are now wondering whether we will even get the promised Entertainer Revamp - that makes me very concerned for our profession . . . and my place in this game.
I guess my concept of what "social" is and what the devs think it to be are dissimilar, to say the least. I don't know what else we can do to make the devs see that we are not one dimentional. I don't need to "pwn" (gack) all the combat players with my uber PvPskillsand I don't need toprovide the be-all in pre-combat readiness for them (buffs).
But - if we were suppose to be "successful" within the framework of the devs' original concept of "social" players then they have failed us miserably because we aren't successful as a class and unless we turn to other means of financial support we have very few of those outside items (houses, clothers, etc.).
I believe that most of us on this forum have been hanging on in this gamefor the Entertainer Revamp. I know you don't have the "inside scoop" anymore, Pan, but you are a smart cookie and I've come to trust your intuition - or at least gleen from it. If the devs actually do come back and say we aren't being revamped or the revamp is either put off further down the line or will be minor in scope, well . . . . it will not be received well at all . . . . not at all . . . .
I'm going to stop now because to do otherwise will depress me too much. 
Aynianu
Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:30 am
#18
Panthu wrote:
People who were masters before that really have to tell me what it was like. I personally always liked the mind duties we had and wanted to see those enhanced in a very Healer like way, but Blair is not on for that plan so I highly doubt that's in our cards at all now.
On my old server, we had a reguler group in coronet cantina (yes it was live entertainers only then !) and once we all got master everyone started doing different things to be honest, and only spending an hour or so together in the evenings there.
During the day we all did a different proffession, often popping into the cantina for a little at a time. And then we all guilded together in one of the first guilds. And we kept doing guild groups at endor for 44k missions during the days, forming a band at the outpost and jamming before goin out to kill stuff.
Id have to say tho i think people spent 'less time' dancing before buffs, once they added buffs some of us was in cantina's all the time giving these for money, but before these we just sort of came and went without spending much time in the cantina at one time.
Dont think that answers the question to wel as im not sure i can remember myself, The game was still new so was the fact we all tried combat aswell may be because of that, and not simply because dancing was not as fun without buffs.
Would ask the rest of them their opinion, but they all quit the game over the afk issues a long time ago (before even buffbots was bad really, they'd be horrified now)
Caerwynn
Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:34 am
#19
From reading the above posts, if entertainers are to be confined to the cantinas with little or no rewards, or even a healing role, then I might as well drop dancer and concentrate on a way to earn credits outside the cantina. Not that earning credits was ever the be-all and end-all of dancing, I dance for fun as much as anything else.
If I'm reduced to just dancing and chatting, then I shall drop dancing, pick up something to compliment TKM and stand around chatting in the cantina, instead of dancing.
I am glad I'm not master musician as well, spending the majority of my time in the cantina will bore me to tears. There are huge areas of the game I am paying to play that would be no go areas without combat skills.
I was beginning to feel optimiistic about the CU and that I could combine TKM and dancing, but now I'm rethinking that.
Either way there is no point changing anything till the CU hits and we can see how it works in practise.
Aynianu
Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:35 am
#20
If sticking to the origional plan dancers and musicians are just social. Then imo they need add to the social side, by making cantina's in general a LOT more appealing, and have people wanting to enter to BE entertained. Aswell as making it fun for us to be there, and removing AFK
Drygo
Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:33 am
#21
/sigh
This game is such a roller coaster. How long have I played, and how many times have I cancelled and then come back within the same week due to promises? How much has SOE cheated and betrayed me?
If through it all, we don't even get a revamp, I cannot even express to you how angry I'm going to be.
If we get nothing because Blair is now directing these types of things and thinks that we are good as is, I think I'm going to have a stroke from all the frustration and pressure.
What Else described, did, in fact occur. But, I can also tell you that as someone else pointed out above, people eventually started leaving the Cantinas after they had achieved mastery. Yes, there will always be some socializers who really don't care that it's nothing more than a glorified chatroom. But, the vast majority of us, even us diehards are not going to bother going anymore because we will have absolutely nothing to do, and most of us are going to be bored, because most of us want a game to play. I sure as hell do NOT pay $15 for a chatroom. As I said in an above post, if that's all I wanted, I'd still be playing the sims online. I left that because the devs there never added new content or anything to do. They either didn't have the resources, or were under the mistaken assumption that people that played there game only wanted to sit around and chat all day.
It's my opinion that any dev who truly thinks that this is all the "social" gameplayer wants is extraordinarily stupid.
Bah! If they do that, then fine. Take away all of the skillpoints. Remove BF, remove everything. Let us diehards be able to be dancers and musicians. And, those among us who care about the entertaining and the roleplay will still be able to do that. Of course, we can kiss any content we were every going to have goodbye. It's so incredibly sad to me that it's come to the state where removing all skill points is the lesser of two evils to me. I'm sitting here growling about it.
Basically, up to this point, this grand experiment has failed. And, it's not because there isn't a market for it. It's because the devs are too incredibly stupid to make it succeed. So many of us have had ideas in these forums, whether it had to do with buffing, healing, game mechanics, or something completely different, many of which would have made us viable. But, they ignore all of that, and THEY have failed us. They have failed in their design. That makes them an extremely sub par development team, in my opinion. And, if any other game would come on the market that offered the variety that SWG has, I'd be gone in a heartbeat. In fact, sometimes I wrestle with myself. I enjoy so many aspects of this game that are not offered elsewhere. But, at the same time, I'm so bitter and angry at SOE that I no longer feel they deserve my money. And, trust me, once I do make that final decision to leave for good, SOE is no longer getting my business for anything in the future because of their betrayal and lies and promises.
I wish they'd prove me wrong. But, as I said, I am not staying because I think things will get better for entertainers. I'm staying because I can't find anything else out there that I like yet. I truly don't even have one shred of hope for our professions any more.
And, I don't care if I sound pessimistic, but until proven otherwise, add me to the ranks of the most disgruntled posters on here that annoy you, because I am *so* there. I don't care if my words do more harm than good. And, I refuse to accept the blame that because I write how I feel we're not getting the ears of the devs. Two years has proven to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that it's not going to happen anyway. So, in my mind, I'm not doing any harm because there's simply no harm to be done. Whether I speak out or not, we're screwed. So be it. The devs can look forward to a lot of scathing criticism from me from here on out. The optimism has been completely and utterly destroyed. Because THEY are incompetent and THEY have failed.
LyteFoot
Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:45 am
#23
I don't care if it is buffs they give us or something else. My understanding from other postings was that buffs were put in to make us financially viable in game terms. That tells me just passive entertaining wasn't viable. I also think passive healing is just as much a chore to the combat bunch as buffs. It can take a lot longer as well. So as long as AFK remains there will be bots to fill their need no matter if we return to the original concept or not.
I'm disappointed that the devs or at least Blaire feel that people really are willing to just sit in one spot and chat all the time. What incentive is there to pay for a game when I can do that in lots of places free. I do like that they provide a non-combat role but it isn't viable today and will be less so after the CU. I just find it hard to believe that the devs really think people would be happy only ever being in one place and chatting without ever exploring the rest of the game. That they think socializers wouldn't want game items like houses, clothes, loot, etc. Are they really that clueless about people?
I do a mix of combat and music. I also chat a lot with my guild and friends. I don't need a cantina to socialize, heck I don't need entertaining to socialize. I do it for fun but I also did it so I could make credits without constantly taking boring, repetitive missions. The fun is working together whether that is with a group of musicians and dancers creating a cool performance or with my guild hunting krayts and trying to keep each other alive. Its the teamwork that is the fun socializing as much as the act of chatting. I can get chatting in a ton of places.
I'm disappointed that the devs or at least Blaire feel that people really are willing to just sit in one spot and chat all the time. What incentive is there to pay for a game when I can do that in lots of places free. I do like that they provide a non-combat role but it isn't viable today and will be less so after the CU. I just find it hard to believe that the devs really think people would be happy only ever being in one place and chatting without ever exploring the rest of the game. That they think socializers wouldn't want game items like houses, clothes, loot, etc. Are they really that clueless about people?
I do a mix of combat and music. I also chat a lot with my guild and friends. I don't need a cantina to socialize, heck I don't need entertaining to socialize. I do it for fun but I also did it so I could make credits without constantly taking boring, repetitive missions. The fun is working together whether that is with a group of musicians and dancers creating a cool performance or with my guild hunting krayts and trying to keep each other alive. Its the teamwork that is the fun socializing as much as the act of chatting. I can get chatting in a ton of places.
Ikewe
Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:22 am
#24
If the cantina is our reward I'd hate to see our punishment. Gah.. this is going to be another one of those weeks. *looks toward the light...decides in an oncoming train and attempts to jump out of the way....
Ikewe
FuschiaD
Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:35 am
#25
So basically, 'back to basics' means "entertainers aren't worth the trouble."
Lemme tell ya somethin', Blair. I pay $30 a month for two accounts and my money is just as green as the combat players'. I want content, and I shouldn't have to switch professions in order to get it. Don't sit there in your little office and try to tuck us neatly away on a shelf just because YOUR implementation of us didn't happen, and didn't satisfy us the way you thought it should.
We need more, and I will scream myself hoarse until we get it. And I will not be the only one.
Kyree-Sunrunner
Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:21 am
#26
Hmmm. Perhaps raising the payoff on the mission terminals to bring them in line with master level combat terminal payouts would work? Base the payout on the level of dancer? Maybe have high level missions that you can only get as a group?