Dancer Archive
Thread: Possible solutions to the AFK/buffbot dilemma
Doriana wrote:
deHenares wrote:
I never felt like not meeting the demands for healing/buffing. On the contrary I usually felt that I was neither welcomed nor respected for my time and dedication.
The problem is and always has been AFK, which on the surface pretends to fill a void but in reality it creates that void in the first place -- people won't ever value your time as long as there are people who are completely automating the same service as you are spending your real, live time to offer. Therefore there won't be people willing to spend their time offering the service.
That's why supply and demand theories DO apply. When entertainers' time becomes valuable you will see better treatment of them (i.e. if everyone in the cantina is ATK, and you /slap or /spit or otherwise mock the person you expect service from, then you're not going to get healed/buffed, you're going to get a screenful of deny service messages) and following that, more people entertaining. There is never a shortage of people who enjoy the ent professions -- there is simply a shortage of people who will stand around putting up with being treated like garbage for little to no reward. Of course people who don't like entertaining and/or entertainers always say otherwise, and that there can just never be enough people who enjoy entertaining, but they're wrong and BOTH sides know it.
That's why this whole original post is pointless hypocrisy. You can't remove AFK buffing but leave AFK healing, because they both have the same affect on the community.
Sir, I take personal offence at this remark. And I am ashamed that you would attempt to goad me into a flam war with the intention of getting this thread locked or deleted.
Read the post above wherein I reiterate the entertainment situation from the beginning of the game up to the release of the ability ti /report harassment.
Removing AFK ability will not increase the respect factor. Were that the case, the /report harassment and /deny service abilities would never have been needed as they both came about before the big AFK phenomenon.
By expecting others (in this case the development team) to protect you, you are in effect leaving yourself open to abuse. That's why self defence classes for women are so popular. You can't trust the law enforcement to protect you. And you can't expect the DEVs to police the bullies of SWG. The have given us the tools to protect ourselves, we need to use them, and it's unreasonable to expect an artificial system to stop bullies from abusing us.
It didn't stopabusers before, it won't stop them now.
And assuming that the devs are going to ban everyone that uses a third party program to stop AFK behaviour is also unreasonable. There is simply no way to police it all. I mean, not just third party programs, but anything else. What's to stop somone from setting up a water goose to tap their F1 key every few seconds. Or just walking by every half hour and tapping the mouse. NOTHING!
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-28-2004 11:15 AM
Padtai wrote:
Seriously doubt Iherao will respond...but who knows.
Why in your opinion is AFK play a superior solution than just increasing the autohealing functions?
Why wouldn't I respond?
I don't think it's a superior solution, but increasing the effectivenes of auto heal functions will create a new problem, in addition to an existing one, which is that it's not widely known about the auto heal function.
If the auto heal function is increased, why go to an entertainer at all? I mean the auto heal finction already works faster than novice entertainer.
I'm all for coming up with alternate solutions, but the solution we get should be one based on what's best for the community rather than one based on anger and defiance and an "I'll get you!" attitude. Which is what the Anti AFK camp seems to be.
I have said it over and over, The only problem I see with AFK entertainers is the BUFFBOT issue, which would be solved by the solution up top. All the other problems are problems NOT borne of AFK entertainers, but of outside influences.
Take the Enertainers get no respect issue. AFK entertainers didn't cause that. That's been in SWG since the first day. What causes that is the Human knack for being a friggin Jerk. The only thing that will stop that is US standing up for OURSELVES.
If there's an issue I'm missing, by all means speak up.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-28-2004 12:25 PM
Padtai wrote:
Why in your opinion is AFK play a superior solution than just increasing the autohealing functions?
That might be an interesting transition plan. Walk into an entertainment venue with no registered entertainers, and the venue will heal you atthe rate a single novice can heal at. As the live entertainers return to the game, lower the healing effect of the venues to encourage players to seek out entertainers.
If there are no registered entertainers, then at least there is healing. If there are registered entertainers, the the player (hopefully) knows they can go there to find healing at least as good as the venue itself offers, if not better.
I can’t even begin to count how many times I have danced in a group with sometimes 5 or 6 ATK masters yet many times hours go by before any of us is asked for single buff.
For that matter before any of us is even noticed as a player rather then NPC.
And I don’t want to hear the “off peak hours” reasoning either, because I play off peak hours many times and guess what, so are other entertainers.
I have always been a supported of enforced AFK status idea, but I would also like the /dump command to be tied to it.
System finds you AFK, all your macros get dumped and you get booted to character screen where you belong.
If you are able to heal or not for the 15 minutes before the system kicks you out is irrelevant.
I really don’t understand why so many people are “crying wolf” about lack of entertainers to heal them if AFK plaque is cured.
Why not give us a chance first and if we fail then cry about it?
Deli’ah
*is having a really bad day*
Petronela wrote:
I really don’t understand why so many people are “crying wolf” about lack of entertainers to heal them if AFK plaque is cured.
Because people profit from it. With both money and power. Yeah it's probably not much money for just heals any more but even 1k credits gotten while AFK is more than you started with, and people will go to any lengths to protect the sources of easy money.
It's all about personal gain and nothing about off-peak healing, that's just a convenient way to get paranoid combat types to support the cause.
Petronela wrote:
Ok, I don’t care if I get flamed or not but I really am getting very tired of this “AFK entertainers are needed because of the supply and demand” BS.
I can’t even begin to count how many times I have danced in a group with sometimes 5 or 6 ATK masters yet many times hours go by before any of us is asked for single buff.
For that matter before any of us is even noticed as a player rather then NPC.
And I don’t want to hear the “off peak hours” reasoning either, because I play off peak hours many times and guess what, so are other entertainers.
I have always been a supported of enforced AFK status idea, but I would also like the /dump command to be tied to it.
System finds you AFK, all your macros get dumped and you get booted to character screen where you belong.
If you are able to heal or not for the 15 minutes before the system kicks you out is irrelevant.
I really don’t understand why so many people are “crying wolf” about lack of entertainers to heal them if AFK plaque is cured.
Why not give us a chance first and if we fail then cry about it?
Deli’ah
*is having a really bad day*
In short? We HAD a chance in the beginning, and FAILED. And now, with an even smaller subscriber base than in the beginning, it looks pretty grim.
You are opposed to the idea that AFK ability is needed, provide a solution that cures EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM THAT AFKing SOLVES.
AFK ability is meant to be a buffer in case Life happens. Take for example this little gem: if an AFK person get's bumped aoutomatically, every subscriber who has children just got cut out of the game. That's a pretty huge chunk. Why you ask? Because when your kids need you, it isn't alwase for under five minuites! And what if that person is in the middle of hostile territory? Guess what, next time the player logs back in, their DEAD.
The BAN AFKing!! War cry DOES NOT TAKE THESE THINGS INTO ACCOUNT! You only see the AFK buffbots. I understand why you don't want them here, I agree. But to ban AFK ability whole hoc will create way bigger problems than it solves.
Here for your reading pleasure is a short list of things that take longer than it would take for the computer to boot you, but not so long that it would make a huge difference in game terms (yes this is a repost)
Now that's a small list of things that ww will no longer be able to do if we are forced offline every time we go AFK.
The fact is, when you think of AFK, you think of the buffbots spamming "PLZ HEAL ME!" and "TIPZ PLZ!!"
You aren't think about all the ramifications. All the little things and ways it can backfire.
As I said over and over I am all for solutions that make every responcible player happy, but so far what is at the top of this list is the best possible solution.
It PUNISHES the Buffbots, and DOESN'T HURT ANYONE who is being responcible or just needs to do any of the things on that list.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-29-2004 08:20 AM
You're against the idea that someone who is AFK for some period of time will get logged out, because it will end up making people log out when doing some tasks around the house they may need to do (and I don't know if you're referring to some specific amount of time that someone posted, but I would argue that the amount of time before you get logged off could be set long enough to do a good number of the tasks on your list).
My question is, so what? Is it a big deal if you get logged off if the task you're doing takes a little longer than expected? Children, as I understand, can demand your attention at any time, no matter what you're doing. But people accept the fact that they won't be able to do things with their undivided attention because hey, they have a nice piece of life that's their own flesh and blood. Why should swg be any different?
I'd say it's a good argument for focusing some attention on making load times smaller
.
Aleyo wrote:
I'm going to ask a question, and it's not meant to be hostile, even though the words used are typically said in a somewhat hostile matter.
You're against the idea that someone who is AFK for some period of time will get logged out, because it will end up making people log out when doing some tasks around the house they may need to do (and I don't know if you're referring to some specific amount of time that someone posted, but I would argue that the amount of time before you get logged off could be set long enough to do a good number of the tasks on your list).
My question is, so what? Is it a big deal if you get logged off if the task you're doing takes a little longer than expected? Children, as I understand, can demand your attention at any time, no matter what you're doing. But people accept the fact that they won't be able to do things with their undivided attention because hey, they have a nice piece of life that's their own flesh and blood. Why should swg be any different?
I'd say it's a good argument for focusing some attention on making load times smaller
I'm sorry. My hostility was directed at one person.
You bring up a good point, yet the same old problem is staring us in the face.
I have explained it several ways. so I'll say this.
To awnser your question, you need to ask a question of yourself.
This question is NOT: What do I have against AFKers? AFKers are a group of people that abuse a good system.
The question IS: What do I have against the ability to go AFK?
Please answer this question before I continue.
Ihareo wrote:
eat a Sandwitch - I can eat a sandwich and play at the same time. AFK is not a necessity for this.
Use the resrtoom - How hard is it to sit down for anywhere while you take a quick bathroom break. You're not going to lose that much XP while you're in the restroom.
answer a phone call - Cordless phones and cell phones make it possible to play and chat on the phone. If it is something that needs to take you away from the computer, it's not hard to stop dancing first.
change a diaper - Legitimate concern, and most people will understand if you have to stop what you're doing to take care of your child. Where it may not be fair, it is part of the responsibility of putting your child first over your own fun.
answer the door - I can walk forward really quickly before running to the door to see who is bothering me, especially if I wasn't expecting anyone. Again, you won't be missing that much XP from stopping for what is likely going to take a minute.
check the mail - You can always stop dancing before you run out. How much XP are you going to miss as you run to your mailbox? It won't make a difference to not be skill animating.
take out the trash - Again, this is not something that will take very long, and you won't be missing scores of XP by being not AFKing anything.
hug your children - The wonderful thing about children is that they tend to come to you when you call their names. You can call them in there with you, and you can hug them and talk to them while you play.
say goodbye to a loved one as they head off to work - I can stop dancing and say goodbye to them and then go back to my fun.
take a stretch - I've been known to stand up and stretch and then lean over and type something on my computer. I'm not sure how you need to AFK in order to do this.
restart your computer - If you need to restart your computer, you should logout and restart it. It's actually better for the computer that way. You'd be amazed at how badly this can corrupt your computer. Otherwise, I have no idea how this is important.
make lunch for your kids - This is another legitimate concern, but I also see where this is a responsibility of being a parent. Again, it is unfair to some degree that you have to postpone what you want to do, but children are wonderful gifts. Stopping your XP gain to make them lunch isn't going to negatively affect your gaming experience.
send an email - I play to have fun. If I'm sending an in game email, I do so from my house or somewhere that I'm not experience gaining. If I need to send a regular email outside the game, well, I wouldn't be playing the game. I'd be checking my email.
check the forums - I check the forums when I'm at work or when I get home and don't feel like playing. The forums are the last thing on my mind when I'm playing. If I think of something that I want to tell someone about that is from the fourms, I stop what I'm doing and check the forums as reference. If I were to get booted, it's not that hard to get back in. Obviously, the post isn't noteworthy if I can't find it immediately.
start the laundty machiene - I'm planning on doing laundry. I can stop dancing and go start my laundry. I can start gaining XP and helping people when I'm done with that chore.
start the dishwasher - The same as with the laundry, I'm planning on washing the dishes. I can stop dancing and go do the dishes. I can start gaining XP and helping people when I'm done with that chore.
turn off the lights - How is turning off the lights going to make you AFK? Are all the lights in the house on, or just the ones in the room? I'm honestly confused over how this is a concern.
pick up the livingroom - If the living room is in need of being cleaned, I'll stop what I'm doing and do that. If I'm concerned about the appearance of my house, it takes precedence of over gaining XP or skill animating.
put a bandaid on a hurt finger - I can see if you just gouged your finger on the keyboard and need a bandaid where you may forget what you were doing. However, if you were booted for being AFK and had to restart up the game, it's not the end of the world. It doesn't take that long to reboot for it, especially if the finger needed to have a bandaid. If you have kids, this is unfortunately another of those responsibilities. It's not always fair, but you have those adoring eyes that look to you for comfort and love. That's worth missing your xp.
get a glass of water - I can stop what I'm doing to get a drink if it really is going to risk being booted from the system for being AFK. It takes me about a minute, but hey, I understand that some people like in multi-floor houses and may have to contend with more than just a glass and a sink (or pitcher).
sing a lullabye to your children - I think I've made my stance on children already. Go sing the lullagye to the children. They are worth more than any Master title in the game. They are worth more than any credit in the game. The game will be here when you get back, and there is nothing it could offer that isn't more important than what you just did.
say hello to a friend - How are people going to get punished for saying hello to a friend in game by not being able to AFK? Or is this just because they can't use recursive macros? You can do a flourish, say hi, and have enough time to do the next flourish. I personally liked to let the XP tick two times before hitting the next flourish anyways. So that gives you twenty seconds right there. You have normally about a minute before you need to flourish again before you stop gaining XP.
make a phonecall - Cordless phones, cell phones, or you can stop and make that call. It's not going to kill your gaming XP.
write a forum post - I personally feel that you should either be playing the game or browsing the forums. Not both. This is certainly not a good reason.
check the forums - Same as above.
send out a general tell to the planetary chat - Same thing as I said with the say hello to a friend.
clean up a spill - I can understand where you may get pulled away suddenly for this, but if you got booted, is it really the end of the world? Are you going to lose such a significant amount of XP by not being there for a few minutes if the system really did boot you?
pick up a take out dinner - Tony Robbins... Hungry! Wait, seriously... you can stop animating for this. It takes about ten to thirty minutes depending how far you have to go. You can logout and just have it ready to start rebooting when you get back. That alone will save you some system resources, which will keep you from having to restart your computer sooner.
have a short argument - Getting booted will let you get a winning edge in the argument. Well, it could. Because you can then blame them for ruining your gameplay more than just by the argument. They also got you disconnected. This doesn't seem like a serious thing to be a concern, so I can't think of a serious reason on how it can be circumvented.
read you children a bed time story - Same as sing them a lullabye.
unsubsscribe to City of Heros (because they do not allow recursive macros )- CoH didn't need to have recursive macros! The game is so simplistic that a simple macro is only necessary. Recursive macros don't aid you that much. As for unsubscribing, why not do that before you log on?
put a bill in the mail - See checking the mail.
do a short homeworlk assignment - I know alot of people in high school and college do homework while playing. It's unavoidable. If they get disconnected, the rebooting will give them more time to finish the assignment and actually pay attention to the game. Be happy that they are at least attempting to do their homework instead of ignoring it.
stick your son in the corner for pushing his sister down - See anything that I've said about the children. First priority should be them, not the game.
prepare a short meal - Food is important. Take a break from making the computer run the macro and make your food. It's not that game-breaking.
suffer from a bout of morning sickness - Ok, I know this can be unavoidable and that getting booted can make the emotions run rampant because of the pregnancy. All I can think is that you can use this for additional sympathy and attention from your significant other.
brush your teeth - Minty fresh! Oral hygene is good. Let's have it first, and then worry about our skills.
find you son's shoes - See my children comments.
call customer service - Best to logout before you do this since it doesn't matter who's customer service you are calling you won't want to take it out on the poor people in the game even if it doesn't take too long. Customer Service is sadly lacking for most places.
check your calender - Keep a calender in the room with the computer. Then you don't have to leave the computer to check the calender.
hook up your joystick (for JTL yay! ) - Hook up the joystick before you logon in case you decide to do anything with JTL.
hang up the laundry - Laundry is done! Tell everyone that you'll brb, stop what you're doing, and go hang up the laundry. You can even go back to the character select screen if it is a large load so that you won't have to risk going all the way back and rebooting from scratch.
check the rulebook - Stop dancing and start reading. If I'm reading something, I tend to move every few minutes to make sure that it doesn't auto log me.
scan a drawing - If I want to scan something, I wouldn't be playing the game. I'm all for multi-tasking, but scanning is something to multi-task with when I'm surfing the net. It's not a concern when I'm playing the game. Gaming is the only thing that doesn't get multi-tasked.
re-rout your router - Typically, it's best to not be online when you start messing with your router.
clip your toenails - I can do this and play the game. Yes, I keep clippers near my computer.
clip your fingernails - I can do this and play the game. Yes, I keep all my nail stuff near my computer.
comb your hair - I can do this and play the game. Yes, I'm a girl and keep a brush near my computer.
take a quick shower - A quick shower means that you won't gain that much while dancing, which means you won't lose that much by not dancing. Once you're done getting clean, then come back and play the game.
or check on your kids 'cause they're being WAY too quiet. - A very legitimate concern. I'd stop what I was doing, let them know that you may have to distribute some punishment, and go check on them. They may be up to no good, but heck, they may be doing something angellic that you just want to observe for awhile.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-29-2004 08:20 AM
I've added my comments next to your short reading list.
I'm not trying to be offensive with my comments. I've just added what you can do instead of saying that people will be punished by removing recursive macroing and having people logout if they are AFK for too long. Even if it is something legitimate that could have happened. For those few legitimate claims, what is a larger priority? Gaining some imaginery skills ina game or taking care of something in your life. Yes, this can set you back, but real life is important and there is nothing so great in this game that should take precedence over some of the precious moments that you included in your list. Granted, these are just my opinions.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-29-2004 09:45 AM
DeathsEgo wrote:
If you need to go afk in the DWB your as good as dead anyway, no matter what macro you have. No game boots AFKer but then no game allows them to gain skills while afk either.
Actually every game allows it. It may be exploiting the system, but it can be done. Again that touches on my point.
In CoH they don't boot an AFK player, even though that character can g AFK and still get XP and influence as long as the group is in the same zone. They don't do this because that will make the game more of a hassle that it's worth. Especially to those who are not guilty of the exploit in question.
You may notknow it being that you never go AFK, but they tried this in SWG a few months back, about a month before publish 9 hit. If you didn't have a macro running you got booted. In fact it still boots you if you don't have a macro running.
And look what has happened. Subscriptions are down dramatically, server population is plummetting, thrid party program usage is skyrocketting.
Sosimple 'simple solutiong to buffbots' is already causing problems. think about if they remove recursive macros. Now I know that isn't the only reason for people leaving by a longshot. It's just a drop in the bucket. But every drop counts.
I'll tell you all somthing. I have been subscribed to SWG every month it has been active. I am extremely loyal to this game and to my professions within the game. I do not use AFK status irresponcibly, and I don't use recursive macros irresponcibly. And as a result I get booted offline VERY frequently. And I get killed because of it VERY frequently.
Now, the only times I don't suffer from this problem is when I use my recursive macros to keep me online. (a simple /tell ihareo;/pause 300;/ui action toolbarSlot23. its not noisy, it doesn't hurt anyone and I don't get any experience with it).
So I'll make this a little personal.Tell me then, what am I to do when I am hunting on dathomir with my Jedi, and my daughter needs me to put her to bed, so I come back to a log in screen, and when I log in I have a big ole pile of negative XP. What do I do? I just got punished for somthing I DIDN'T DO!
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-29-2004 10:11 AM