Dancer Archive
Thread: Possible solutions to the AFK/buffbot dilemma
--This will remove the ability for a player to essesntially lie about being there.
A player will be placed into a forced AFK status after20 minutesof unatended keyboard time.
--The timer will look for user interface. If a player hasn't pushed a button, moved the mouse, taken an action, AFK status activates automatically. 20 miniuts isreasonable because most small problems that pull a player away can be resolved in 20 minutes, while if the problem takes longer, they will not be allowed to further benifit from character action. At the same time 20 minutes is too short to be worththe effortfor an AFKer to come back and tap their mouse.
NOTE: Some players have vehemetly asked that in this proposal the 20 minute timer bechanged to a 15 or even 10 minute timer for entertainers. While I don't understand the point, it deserves to be discussed.
A Forced AFK player cannot gain experience points or loot corpses.
--Once a player's status switches to Forced AFK, the character will not gain experience and all mobs the character defeats will yield no loot. This will solve the problem ofplayers AFK farming loot or xp without punishing those who are genuinely AFK by making their character helpless.
A forced AFK player cannot recieve tips of any kind.
--All tips to a Forced AFK player automatically bounce back to the tipper, as with free trial SWG accounts that have achieved their credit limit.
Now, if you take away any ability to make a rofit, the buffbots will go away.
If you take away the ability to have access to entertainers 24/7, people start to leave the game due to a huge game mechanic that requires the assistance of other players who simply aren't there, and the general attitude towards entertainers will drop in amiability dramatically. If anyone doesn't believe me, just ask any one else that was here for the above mentioned period of time who was NOT an entertainer and who was inconvienienced by the situation.
--Solutions to problems without removing recursive macros
--All solutions assume that all status returns to normal once AFK status is removed.
Remove the option for a player to turn off automatic AFK
--This will remove the ability for a player to essesntially lie about being there.
A player will be placed into a forced AFK status after20 minutesof unatended keyboard time.
--The timer will look for user interface. If a player hasn't pushed a button, moved the mouse, taken an action, AFK status activates automatically. 20 miniuts isreasonable because most small problems that pull a player away can be resolved in 20 minutes, while if the problem takes longer, they will not be allowed to further benifit from character action. At the same time 20 minutes is too short to be worththe effortfor an AFKer to come back and tap their mouse.
A Forced AFK player cannot gain experience points or loot corpses.
--Once a player's status switches to Forced AFK, the character will not gain experience and all mobs the character defeats will yield no loot. This will solve the problem ofplayers AFK farming loot or xp without punishing those who are genuinely AFK by making their character helpless.
A player in a group who goes Forced AFK ceses to gain the benifits of the group, without being dropped from the group.
--Forcing a player to drop when they go AFK will end up griefing many, becausereal lifeDOES intrude. People have children, people need to answer the door, people need to eat, people need to use the restroom.
The group ceses to gain the benifit of a ForcedAFK player (with regaurds to spawn rates, mission payouts, ect)
--This will encourage groups to only include active players.
Remove the ability for a Forced AFK player to speak in any channel
--When AFK, the player cannot SPAM. However, if the player is manning his/her keyboard, he/she can spam.
A forced AFK player cannot recieve tips of any kind.
--All tips to a Forced AFK player automatically bounce back to the tipper, as with free trial SWG accounts that have achieved their credit limit.
Allow Merchants to adverise on the Baazar in a seperate Advertizing only tab. (Bazaar sales, Private Inventories)
--It would be a giant catalogue. A crafter could only place an item on the Bazaar if they do not own any private Vendors, thereby protecting the 'newbie' crafters and non merchants.
Increase Crate storage, and allow identical items to be stacked, also allowing for 'Dutch auctions'
--The seller places all of the similar items for sale in the same slot, with all the players who purchace the item recieving one of the items in the slot. This will cut down on the server usage and indirectly affect the level of Spamming if combined with the solution above.
Players will still be able to gain the healing benifits of AFK entertainers or healers, because sometimes there is just no entertainer or healer playersaround. This especially true late at night when a large player populations is still loged in.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 03-28-2005 01:47 AM
The only solution is to make it so people can't AFK with in game tools and then ban those who use 3rd party macros.
The other solution is to use the sticky at the top of the forum.
Doriana wrote:
AFK dispensing of mechanics is the issue whether it's heals or buffs. You can't say "It's okay in this instance but not in this one." One is just as damaging as the other and just as wrong as the other. Before buffs came around there were still issues with AFKers, buffbots didn't invent this abuse, they just capitalized on it.
The only solution is to make it so people can't AFK with in game tools and then ban those who use 3rd party macros.
The other solution is to use the sticky at the top of the forum.
But that's no solution. That solves the Buffbot dilemma, but creates the No entertainers available dilemma. Put simply, it solves a problem for a small group and creates a problem for a much larger group.
Do you know that the Joystick I bought for JTL can macro for me? (I don't use JTL anyway *pout*). I can program it to do almost anything I want.
My point in saying that is that people will do what they have to to keep their status Quo. And banning AFK behaviour will only result in people resorting to things like my Joystick. My solution, or one like it, will at least eliminate the AFK buffbot problem.
Ergo (this word has beenbrought to you by Matrix Reloded), the only way to keep people 'ATK' will be for CSRs to walk around saying "Are you there? Are you there? Are you there?" and the funny part is, I can even program my Joystick to respond to that!
What I am saying is, the real problem needs to be addressed. What is the real problem? I don't know! I've looked through the sticky, and the only problem I can find, besides people being angry, is buffbots taking buisness from responsible players. Which I agree, thats a crying shame and shouldn't be allowed.
So I am here, trying to find a solution that will fix that problem, while still making the Entertainment service available to all.
I just hope I can get this thread added to the sticky so it can be discussed like adults instead of being locked and hushed like a schoolyard mess.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 12-26-2004 04:31 PM
I strongly believe that should you make entertainer a viable and rewarding profession more will come to it. Sure it may take a week or two but they will start coming back. Supply and demand, if there are fewer buffers around, prices will go up. Prices go up, people want a bigger piece of the pie and take up that profession. It will sort it self out, It may take a month or so to get it all balanced, but its not going to break things.
As was pointed out making it pleasant to be an entertainer again will bring people back. However even if there isn't one new entertainer after AFK is killed there are still enough ents to provide all the services required. You don't need 30 docs at the starport and you don't need 30 ents in the cantina.
Message Edited by Va-Mei on 12-27-2004 07:47 AM
We are lucky on Corbantis that we have an active group in the Theed cantina. We not only have friends but we do not tolerate abusive behavior and several of us that have combat skills along with our entertainer skills make it very clear to jerks that they aren't welcome. We also encourage new entertainers not to spam while pointing them to the threads where the combat players have complained about how annoying it is. So Theed Corbantis is pretty spam free and friendly, a public haven in an otherwise hostle entertainer environment. Just last night one guy got out of line and as we were putting him in his place he commented that he didnt' get complaints about his actions in Mos Eisley, that the girls there didn't seem to mind being treated as toys. That alone speaks volumes about how bad it is in many of the NPC cantinas. Do you blame the entertainers for abandoning them?
Now lets ignore entertaining for a bit. You feel AFK is a viable play style and the looping macro is a good thing. So:
you are ok with the fact that while I'm trying to level up a melee player on another server I can't get at meatlumps and similar NPC because there is ALWAYS some AFK high level combatent hogging the spawn spots?
You are ok with the fact that most TKM don't actually understand their characters abilities, they have all downloaded someones macro and simply click one button to KD/dizzy their opponents in an endless loop?
You are ok with the ridiculous spam at starports from all those zombies?
You are ok with going into one of the caves to find some zombie on the loot box with a timer waiting to scarf the goods?
If you say yes to all that then you do feel it is an ok style. Personally I think a play style involves playing. Turning on a computer, logging into a system, and clicking a single button to start an unattended process is not playing that is automated banking systems, automated payroll systems, web servers, game servers, and a lot of other server systems it isn't playing a game.
LyteFoot wrote:
...You feel AFK is a viable play style and the looping macro is a good thing....
Message Edited by Va-Mei on 12-27-2004 02:01 PM
Va-Mei wrote:
LyteFoot wrote:
...You feel AFK is a viable play style and the looping macro is a good thing....
Make no mistake, I would like nothing more than to see AFK play disapear; to the point that Iplay unbuffed, wounded & fatigued ifI can't find a live entertainer.And I do agree with you, take away the AFK and ATK will return.
All I'm saying is, that if/when SOE makes it happen some servers will suffer for it during the transition.
Message Edited by Va-Mei on 12-27-2004 02:01 PM
LyteFoot wrote:
Total apathy towards enterainers is a result of AFK. Remove the AFK, remove the ability to do an entire skill without player involvement and that apathy will wear off. Once they are valued again enterainers will show back up. I don't know the size of Naritus but I'm betting there are still entertainers or former entertainers playing who would return under those conditions. A lot of entertainers have simply faded into their player cities or guild halls to perform for their friends because the public cantinas are often so hostile. People come in and either ignore the live entertainers or outright abuse them.
We are lucky on Corbantis that we have an active group in the Theed cantina. We not only have friends but we do not tolerate abusive behavior and several of us that have combat skills along with our entertainer skills make it very clear to jerks that they aren't welcome. We also encourage new entertainers not to spam while pointing them to the threads where the combat players have complained about how annoying it is. So Theed Corbantis is pretty spam free and friendly, a public haven in an otherwise hostle entertainer environment. Just last night one guy got out of line and as we were putting him in his place he commented that he didnt' get complaints about his actions in Mos Eisley, that the girls there didn't seem to mind being treated as toys. That alone speaks volumes about how bad it is in many of the NPC cantinas. Do you blame the entertainers for abandoning them?
Now lets ignore entertaining for a bit. You feel AFK is a viable play style and the looping macro is a good thing. So:
you are ok with the fact that while I'm trying to level up a melee player on another server I can't get at meatlumps and similar NPC because there is ALWAYS some AFK high level combatent hogging the spawn spots?
You are ok with the fact that most TKM don't actually understand their characters abilities, they have all downloaded someones macro and simply click one button to KD/dizzy their opponents in an endless loop?
You are ok with the ridiculous spam at starports from all those zombies?
You are ok with going into one of the caves to find some zombie on the loot box with a timer waiting to scarf the goods?
If you say yes to all that then you do feel it is an ok style. Personally I think a play style involves playing. Turning on a computer, logging into a system, and clicking a single button to start an unattended process is not playing that is automated banking systems, automated payroll systems, web servers, game servers, and a lot of other server systems it isn't playing a game.
With the above solutions, the high level players wouldn't be doing what they are now.
Forced AFK=No experience OR loot.
Why is that such a hard thing to understand about this proposal? It would make it so that the only AFKers left are the ones who feel they have to have a healbot on standby. No buffbots, no players AFK grinding FS skills, only at the keyboard entertainers, and those that leave their character running, despite not getting any benefit whatsoever, to help other players while they are off line.
Now lets examine that for a second shal we?
AFK entertaining has been around since the first week of play. Why? Back then there was no rush. At all. No big goal, no holocrons, no race to the 'finish line'. Back then, most players didn't even know well enoguh to /tip an entertainer, so there was no profit to be had. In fact running a heal Bo actually costed money for training and whatnot. There WAS however plenty of mind woulnds to go around, and battle fatigue built up really fast because people didn't know just how to tweak things yet. So, with AFK entertaining being at such a disadvantage, why did people do it?
The anwser is basic supply and demand. There was a HUGE demand for entertainment skills, and not enough entertainers to go around. Therefore, people started leaving their characters running after they went to bed so that the night owls would have an entertainer available. Many of the most famous entertainers (at least on sunrunner) got that way from greatfull hunters who would come back from trying to get to jabba's palace unnsuccessfully. The need was there, so entertainers answered that need. No benifit for themselves (recursive macros hadn't really been discovered yet), just dancing in place, no flourishes, no XP and no tips all night till server shutdown. And people were greatfull.
The Demand was there, and if not for entertainers who went AFK, there would have been no supply.
Now, you talk about people not respecting the Dancer, Musician and Entertainer profession beceause of AFK players... put simply, horsesh!t.
Any day one veteran can tell you, the bullying and disrespect was there from the very first day. That's why I left dancer for a long time. I got sick to death of players bullying me, and my dancemates. One of the most common phrases was "What are you gonna do about it?". And truthfully, there was nothing we COULD do about it, unless we were one of the VERY few dancer/somthings. You have to remember, this was before the grinding days. Professions took a bloody long time to Master, let alone branching out into other professions. This was also before the /deny service, and /report harassment abilities were put in the game, so we just had to deal with it.
When the ability to deny service came about, we all collectively cheered. When we could report harassment, we again cheered. Then and ONLY then did we start seeing even a little respect. And even then the only ones who got that respect from the bullies were those of us who had gone out and gotten some butt whuppin' skills. We could now fight back with passive agression, AND outright violence.
So we got some respect.
Which brings us to the now. People will alwase poke at what can't act back. When an entertainer goes AFK, there will alwase be a player who mocks them. Heck, one of my favourite things to d when my friends go offline and are still LD is /emote doodles on so and so's face! I have only been asked to stop once, and I did so. Now most taunts are much more cruel, and crude, but that will alwase be the case.
Removing the ability to go AFK will NOT win respect from the rest of the community. One has only to look back to the early days of the game to see that. But lets go back further. Go back to childhood and ask yourself how it made you feel during first grade when a few kids complained that they didn't get a fair turn on the swing, so the teacher put the swings off limits. id you respect those kids more or less? How did you feel? Sure those kide WERE being treated unfairly, and it was cruel that they didn't get a turn on the swing, but taking away everyone's fun did NOT help those kids win any respect from their peers.
It's the same here. Remove AFK ability and the taunts won't stop. They'll just be to your face instead of to your back. And the ONLY way to stop that is to take your fate in your own hands and report the jerks. The CSRs are really cracking down on harassment, and as well they should, so this is the perfect time to look a bully player right in the eye and say
"You have just been reported for harassment. Have a nice day!"
And when you do it right away, the CSRs can read everything that the offending no0b said to you.
Ihareo wrote:
[...]
The anwser is basic supply and demand. There was a HUGE demand for entertainment skills, and not enough entertainers to go around.
[...]
You know, whenever I read something like this I cannot help but wonder: If it is true that the demand for entertainer is bigger than the supply than why...
...is the pay so lousy, or better, why is the payment for my services basically non-existant?
...am I and my sisters and brotherstreated like dirt?
There just seems to be a mismatch between the supply/demand-theory and my daily experiences. And this mismatch isn't a recent development, it has been there since I started entertainer back in the early days, although to a much lesser degree (the time where people tipped for simple bf-healing
) I never felt like not meeting the demands for healing/buffing. On the contrary I usually felt that I was neither welcomed nor respected for my time and dedication. I could travel to faraway places and play there and felt happy if someone acknowledged my sheer existence.
I don't expect people to carry me on their hands and shower me with gold and jewelry (although on the other hand...
), but if it is (or was) true that the demand exceeds the supply, than the only logical conclusion is that I mustbe doingsomething terribly wrong.
I just don't get it.
deHenares wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
[...]
The anwser is basic supply and demand. There was a HUGE demand for entertainment skills, and not enough entertainers to go around.
[...]
You know, whenever I read something like this I cannot help but wonder: If it is true that the demand for entertainer is bigger than the supply than why...
...is the pay so lousy, or better, why is the payment for my services basically non-existant?
...am I and my sisters and brotherstreated like dirt?
There just seems to be a mismatch between the supply/demand-theory and my daily experiences. And this mismatch isn't a recent development, it has been there since I started entertainer back in the early days, although to a much lesser degree (the time where people tipped for simple bf-healing
I don't expect people to carry me on their hands and shower me with gold and jewelry (although on the other hand...
I just don't get it.
deHenares wrote:I never felt like not meeting the demands for healing/buffing. On the contrary I usually felt that I was neither welcomed nor respected for my time and dedication.
The problem is and always has been AFK, which on the surface pretends to fill a void but in reality it creates that void in the first place -- people won't ever value your time as long as there are people who are completely automating the same service as you are spending your real, live time to offer. Therefore there won't be people willing to spend their time offering the service.
That's why supply and demand theories DO apply. When entertainers' time becomes valuable you will see better treatment of them (i.e. if everyone in the cantina is ATK, and you /slap or /spit or otherwise mock the person you expect service from, then you're not going to get healed/buffed, you're going to get a screenful of deny service messages) and following that, more people entertaining. There is never a shortage of people who enjoy the ent professions -- there is simply a shortage of people who will stand around putting up with being treated like garbage for little to no reward. Of course people who don't like entertaining and/or entertainers always say otherwise, and that there can just never be enough people who enjoy entertaining, but they're wrong and BOTH sides know it.
That's why this whole original post is pointless hypocrisy. You can't remove AFK buffing but leave AFK healing, because they both have the same affect on the community.