Dancer Archive
Thread: Help Save A Playstyle!!!
Panthu
Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:43 pm
#14
Mwahaha! 5 stars for all three of you!
/grouphug
I like shopping, but I cry for what this really means for Merchants. A lot was said in the Corr forum. It's the underlying meaning that bothers me the most.
I still think Merchants should hitch a ride in the Ent tree, heh. Good luck guys, battle on!
/tsk ninjas (no more one stars please!)
Treena_Daal
Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:57 pm
#15
Sorry, but I have to support this change. I've been looking for a jacket. A white Pilot's Jacket with black trim. I've been searching for this for 2 weeks. I've been to Naboo, I've been to Tatooine, I've been to Dantooine, Rori, and Corellia. I've traveled all over looking for that jacket. I'm sick of driving, flying, and paying money to shuttles to visit shop after shop trying to find the one jacket I want. I've emailed people who had similar items, but got no response. In the end, I've pretty much given up. I want this change in, because I am bloody tired of having to visit 3-5 planets just to find the one piece of a new outfit I need.
I love random shopping. There are times when I will take a break during the day, and just wander around to various clothing stores to see what they have. I'll likely still do that. But when I am actually looking for a specific item, I want to find it fast. The current system doesn't allow for that. The new one will.
Furthermore, I disagree about people not returning to a person they have used before. In the cantina I dance in, there are usually two entertainers. Myself, and an AFK dancer. Many times, people will completely ignore me to go to her, and sometimes people will go directly to me. She is a Master Musician/Master Dancer, so I understand them wanting to go to her over me if they need to get out of there and back to fighting, as I am only a 4-0-4-3 Dancer. But I have quite a few returning customers who come back to me because I am actually there, and I actually talk to them. Perhaps Merchants should have done the same thing? Yes, you had NPCs to sell for you. But that was only part of it. Much like us, you should have been at your shop, waiting for someone to come in who may need your services. If you were on hand to help them, I guarantee that you would have a lot more repeat customers. Sure, some would just use you for the lowest price, but people would come back.
You can still do that. But you actually have to interact with your customers. Much like our customers, most will not start the interaction with you unless they have a question. If you take the first step, they'll remember that, and they'll come back.
I love random shopping. There are times when I will take a break during the day, and just wander around to various clothing stores to see what they have. I'll likely still do that. But when I am actually looking for a specific item, I want to find it fast. The current system doesn't allow for that. The new one will.
Furthermore, I disagree about people not returning to a person they have used before. In the cantina I dance in, there are usually two entertainers. Myself, and an AFK dancer. Many times, people will completely ignore me to go to her, and sometimes people will go directly to me. She is a Master Musician/Master Dancer, so I understand them wanting to go to her over me if they need to get out of there and back to fighting, as I am only a 4-0-4-3 Dancer. But I have quite a few returning customers who come back to me because I am actually there, and I actually talk to them. Perhaps Merchants should have done the same thing? Yes, you had NPCs to sell for you. But that was only part of it. Much like us, you should have been at your shop, waiting for someone to come in who may need your services. If you were on hand to help them, I guarantee that you would have a lot more repeat customers. Sure, some would just use you for the lowest price, but people would come back.
You can still do that. But you actually have to interact with your customers. Much like our customers, most will not start the interaction with you unless they have a question. If you take the first step, they'll remember that, and they'll come back.
PoetDancer
Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:08 pm
#16
I was on Test Centre today, and actually bought that black ensemble only because I was able to look at the Theed Bazaar, discover a vendor in the middle of the Tatooine wasteland, and purchase it. I applaud the versatility of the system, simply for informational purposes of where the item is located, what the price may be, and the image and statistics available.
Frankly, most of the problems we have is because we don't have enough information as consumers, and so we have to use ad-hoc methods, such as the trade forums, or spambots to gain and provide information. I do not feel it is appropriate to use the forums or spamming accounts as a needed gameplay device.
That being said, I do not feel that consumers need to be able to purchase vendor goods away from the place where the goods are stocked. What if I buy an item, but I am unable to enter the building where the vendor is located? Plus, it makes the galactic market simply too fluid for merchants and crafters with limited playtime to set and maintain a pricing strategy.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-15-2005 09:32 PM
LeBob
Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:43 pm
#17
There is no question in my mind that the current implementation of this will not only ruin and destroy the economy but completely remove the economy from the game.
Landlubber
Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:54 am
#18
For me this is just one of those things where I'll have to see how it plays out in practice first. As a customer I'd have to say I'd much rather take that quick swoop ride to the vendorI know has most likely what I want, then spend half an hour scrolling through hundreds of bazaar pages, just to find an item that costs 2k less than all others. So those more personal ways of building up your reputation as a merchant would very probably still work on me 
As a merchant (3040 in my case, little tailor shop near Theed on Bria), well... my wares are already pretty competitively priced, actually I'm not sure if I want to register on the global bazaar at all. Because that would likely mean more effort in keeping it restocked. I'll try it for a week or two and see if it turns out.
Oh, and Treena: still looking for that jacket? If yes, drop me a PM here or an ingame mail (to Ailar), and I'll make it for you later today 
Message Edited by Landlubber on 03-16-2005 12:55 PM
FuschiaD
Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:35 am
#19
I am indifferent to this change. As a consumer, I can see its benefits; as a merchant, I can see its drawbacks. I think, if I had to choose, I'd toss my hat in the ring of people against this change. It does seem to spell out disaster in the long run.
I suppose we'll see, as there is absolutely no chance of changing the devs' minds on anything.
Treena_Daal
Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:52 am
#20
Landlubber wrote:Oh, and Treena: still looking for that jacket? If yes, drop me a PM here or an ingame mail (to Ailar), and I'll make it for you later today
You're going on my friends list as soon as Bria comes back up.
Landlubber
Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:01 am
#21
Treena_Daal wrote:
Landlubber wrote:
Oh, and Treena: still looking for that jacket? If yes, drop me a PM here or an ingame mail (to Ailar), and I'll make it for you later today
You're going on my friends list as soon as Bria comes back up.
Okay, I should be on Bria roughly 5 hours from now (on Euro time and still at work).
Sorry for going OT here - but then, maybe this proves some kind of point, don't ask me which one though
Hobbytla
Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:27 am
#22
The funny thing is that the arguments for this change in this thread are exactly almost word by word the same things that people advocating buffbots are using.
I don't see why I should have to look for things just because someone else enjoys playing a merchant.
I shouldn't have to be inconvinienced by other people when I just want toget my fun right this minute.
If that's your take on the game in general that's fine. But don't apply it differently to your playstyle than you do to other's playstyle.....
I hope that the changes that has been made from the original "search" will prove enough to not completely ruin the game for the crafters and merchant who play for fun and not only to get money. But I really don't see why they couldn't have just taken the merchant's suggestion for search functions which were balanced and thought though. It's not like merchants hadn't requested a vendor search function. Just not one which would delete their skills from the game. But hey, it's someone else's gameplay that got killed this time, so it doesn't matter.
Well... it does kind of matter. Because they are step by step eliminating everything which isn't catered to the combat players every little wish. From nerfed graphics to arcade movements to the economy and crafting. I take back that I thought they wouldn't have added entertainer improvements if they were going to kill the professions. After all, the merchants got a revamp a few months ago.
I have a feeling that when you look at the game as a whole, this change has more to do with the entertainers future than one would think at first glance. The ones who cater to mass consumption will survive, the ones who are in it for fun will leave their profession or the game.
Treena_Daal
Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:48 am
#23
See, I see it as the exact opposite. Merchants basically set up their version of Buffbots (vendors), and walk off to do something else. They think that by setting up a vendor, putting it onto the planetary vendor list, and maybe setting up one of those infernally annoying spam-bots, they've done their part. Now they get to go off and fight, or craft, or do anything else they want, while still playing as a merchant. With this change comming in, you'll have to find a way to stand out, just like we do. Anyone can go to any dancer or musician to get healed. When they come to me, especially if they come to me from halfway across the galaxy like an entire group did last night, that's special to me. I know they came to me because I did something to stick out. To make them like me, and want to come back.
When I am playing a dancer, I am in the cantina actually dancing, talking, and trying to help everyone have a good time. When you are playing a merchant, what are you doing? I'm willing to bet that it isn't standing in your shop selling items.
A true way to compare this would be a registration of all Entertainers with their buffing skill, price per buff, location, and maybe a little message (to simulate your ability to name your items). And you know what? That would actually benefit me more than not. Because I don't have a set price for buffs, and my message would be able to contain a happy 'Not AFK, please come talk to me' message, which will draw more people who want to see real live entertainers.
When I am playing a dancer, I am in the cantina actually dancing, talking, and trying to help everyone have a good time. When you are playing a merchant, what are you doing? I'm willing to bet that it isn't standing in your shop selling items.
A true way to compare this would be a registration of all Entertainers with their buffing skill, price per buff, location, and maybe a little message (to simulate your ability to name your items). And you know what? That would actually benefit me more than not. Because I don't have a set price for buffs, and my message would be able to contain a happy 'Not AFK, please come talk to me
' message, which will draw more people who want to see real live entertainers.
DocSavag
Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:27 am
#24
The disturbing part of this whole thing for me is that proponents of this change tend to paint opposition as opposition to searching as a concept. Most merchants support global searching. Its the remote purchasing system and the idea that anyone with Business III is now a global advertiser with the exact same chance to sell merchandise as master merchants. It devalues all the skill points in merchant. There isn't a single merchant skill tree that isn't affected by this change.
There are ways to accomplish the goals of providing easy ways to find merchandise that do not nerf the merchant profession and throw out the work of 1000's of players who have strived to create a virtual business in this game. They worked hard to get the right location, to create a name for themselves, to stock things people wanted to buy and to arrange those things in a manner that encouraged people to come back time and time again into their establishments. This change endangers all of that because people will simply buy from the bazaar and go pick it up. THey won't give a damn about where the item is or whether they bought from that person before it will be whatever is the quality they way at a price they feel is reasonable and that happens to be in the first few pages of the bazaar for that category. Its random chance. There is no marketing, there is no location, there is no playstyle for merchants.
There are ways to accomplish the goals of providing easy ways to find merchandise that do not nerf the merchant profession and throw out the work of 1000's of players who have strived to create a virtual business in this game. They worked hard to get the right location, to create a name for themselves, to stock things people wanted to buy and to arrange those things in a manner that encouraged people to come back time and time again into their establishments. This change endangers all of that because people will simply buy from the bazaar and go pick it up. THey won't give a damn about where the item is or whether they bought from that person before it will be whatever is the quality they way at a price they feel is reasonable and that happens to be in the first few pages of the bazaar for that category. Its random chance. There is no marketing, there is no location, there is no playstyle for merchants.
Message Edited by DocSavag on 03-16-2005 09:28 AM
Petronela
Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:00 am
#25
I’m not sure if I understand this correctly, never been a merchant, but am a shopoholic.
I like the idea of having an option to “window-shop” and then make up my mind to which shop I want to go.
But if this change gives an option to buy goods directly from Bazzar I find it very lame.
I hate to bring up the “other” games and how it works there but wouldn’t the way it’s done in EQ2 kind of make both sides happy here also?
EQ2: Broker (Bazzar) lists all the items available for sale, but if you buy directly from there you pay 20% more (broker fee/tax) for the item, however if you use Broker (Bazzar) only as a reference to see what is where at what price and make the trip to the actual vendor you save 20%.
Plus this way many people (me definitely included) who are impulsive shoppers would use Bazzar to see who has what at price I can afford, but when I get to the actual vendor and see the entire inventory I will most likely buy more then just the item I came for originally.
Like I said.. not a merchant and not totally sure if I understand this argument correctly so please excuse my ignorance if I’m totally of track here.
Deli'ah
I like the idea of having an option to “window-shop” and then make up my mind to which shop I want to go.
But if this change gives an option to buy goods directly from Bazzar I find it very lame.
I hate to bring up the “other” games and how it works there but wouldn’t the way it’s done in EQ2 kind of make both sides happy here also?
EQ2: Broker (Bazzar) lists all the items available for sale, but if you buy directly from there you pay 20% more (broker fee/tax) for the item, however if you use Broker (Bazzar) only as a reference to see what is where at what price and make the trip to the actual vendor you save 20%.
Plus this way many people (me definitely included) who are impulsive shoppers would use Bazzar to see who has what at price I can afford, but when I get to the actual vendor and see the entire inventory I will most likely buy more then just the item I came for originally.
Like I said.. not a merchant and not totally sure if I understand this argument correctly so please excuse my ignorance if I’m totally of track here.
Deli'ah
Hobbytla
Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:04 am
#26
Treena_Daal wrote:
See, I see it as the exact opposite. Merchants basically set up their version of Buffbots (vendors), and walk off to do something else. They think that by setting up a vendor, putting it onto the planetary vendor list, and maybe setting up one of those infernally annoying spam-bots, they've done their part. Now they get to go off and fight, or craft, or do anything else they want, while still playing as a merchant. With this change comming in, you'll have to find a way to stand out, just like we do. Anyone can go to any dancer or musician to get healed. When they come to me, especially if they come to me from halfway across the galaxy like an entire group did last night, that's special to me. I know they came to me because I did something to stick out. To make them like me, and want to come back.
When I am playing a dancer, I am in the cantina actually dancing, talking, and trying to help everyone have a good time. When you are playing a merchant, what are you doing? I'm willing to bet that it isn't standing in your shop selling items.
A true way to compare this would be a registration of all Entertainers with their buffing skill, price per buff, location, and maybe a little message (to simulate your ability to name your items). And you know what? That would actually benefit me more than not. Because I don't have a set price for buffs, and my message would be able to contain a happy 'Not AFK, please come talk to me
But this is exactly what we are talking about. The people who compete on location, try to stock their vendors a wide selection and not just the main sellers - to attract customers to their shop and to make sure that people will return because they will know they are wellstocked and have the variety. Who try to make the shop nice, make contact with customers etc. Who play a merchant, not just someone who massproduce. The mass producers will still make a bundle of money. But why would you try to keep the not-so-big sellers in stock so people will return to your shop if they will justpick it up from the nearest bazaar from whoever happens to be selling the item cheapest? There is not a big enough market out there for some of these items that it will be worth it for someone mass producing to compete on price, and perhaps a few dedicated crafters will be able to scrape a living on these crumbs.
If you want people to come to you because you are nice and put on a good show, why say that it's a good thing that that very personal aspect gets taken out of merchant? You say yourself that you don't want to compete with bots on price but on your own skill or ability. This suggestion will make it about the price and nothing else.
The merchants you are talking about who toss something on the vendor and then goes on to do something else will be the winners in this new system. This change takes away the need to even be a merchant to sell. You just need business in artisan. You don't need to be a merchant at all. I realize why the strange debate suggestion of making merchant part of the entertainer/social profession tree popped up some time ago. Perhaps the socialprofessions won't disapper competely, but the ability to have that as your gamestyle seem to be going away.
I agree with you that it's a good thing to be able to find what you are looking for, be it merchandise or an ATK entertainer. But most people don't actually care who supplies them with things, as long as they get it. They don't care if that person is dedicated to their profession or not, or even good at it. They just want to get out of the door as quick as possible, to their game. And "that game", the only game which seems to count more with every publish and patch is pure combat. That's not why I play SWG. But I might no longer be in their target group.
Well - this latest version is not as bad as the previous one. I just know that my reasons for playing this game are getting fewer and fewer. If they want to compete on combat they better become very good, because it seems to me that other games do that a lot better.
You don't have to like or sympathize with merchants. Just know that their whole skill tree just became obsolete with so far nothing to replace it. I think that if a novice entertainer could perform your master services as effectively as you can with spending 29 skillpoints you would feel that your place in the game had been somewhat pushed aside?
You can still play shop. But it doesn't serve any real need or function in the game anymore.
Sorry, not trying to be too melodramatic. I will drop my merchant, or perhaps "play shop" all by myself with a customer here and there - just as with entertaining there are stillpeople who like their experience in the game to be personal. I also hope that somehow this will be OK for the crafters, that they are not next. But I have more doubts with every patch.
Sorry, sorry.... I'm just really sad right now. It's not caused by or directed at anyone on this thread. 
I still have fun in the game so maybe I should just stick to that for as long as it still is fun.