Dancer Archive
Thread: The BuffBot Quandary
Landlubber
Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:56 am
#14
Some very good suggestions there - 1 and 3 look like no-brainers to me, while 2 (as you've stated) might be a bit difficult to explain away.
NewJedi
Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:18 pm
#15
One of these days I'm going to go into one of the combat forums and post something like: "Seeking macro to Master [combat profession] while AFK." I wonder what the response would be like there.
Nuke the macro function, devs. Just take it out.
Zelos1
Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:21 pm
#16
NewJedi wrote:
One of these days I'm going to go into one of the combat forums and post something like: "Seeking macro to Master [combat profession] while AFK." I wonder what the response would be like there.
Nuke the macro function, devs. Just take it out.
Try Jedi. Your name's even appropriate for it.
Fragpuppie
Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:55 pm
#17
Zelos1 wrote:
NewJedi wrote:
One of these days I'm going to go into one of the combat forums and post something like: "Seeking macro to Master [combat profession] while AFK." I wonder what the response would be like there.
Nuke the macro function, devs. Just take it out.
Try Jedi. Your name's even appropriate for it.
Even better....do it in the Jedi forum.
"Hey, do any of you know a macro and a safe location where I can AFK my jedi XP....it takes so long and I want to master it so I can be Uber l33t."
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Band Leader and Booking Agent - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
NewJedi
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:39 am
#18
I certainly support some form of #3, and maybe #2. The trouble with a survey-style popup, though, is that people will defeat it with third-party macros. I assume such macros are a violation of the ToS, but that doesn't seem to deter anyone from using them.
The devs have occasionally talked about adding a more interactive element to our gig missions and to our profession generally. But they've been talking about that (at least to me) for six months, and nothing's happened. I've pointed them to the scores of interesting ideas in this forum on how to encourage at-the-keyboard play, but we're still waiting. The standard reply right now is: the demise of the Holocron will improve things. I'm afraid they're in for a surprise. The end of holo-grinding will have a marginal effect, but that's all.
Personally, I'd like to see them feed the entire macro function to a kimogila. No other MMORPG I've played has a macro capability nearly as robust as this. At the very least, the recursive macro has got to go. It's ridiculous.
Landlubber
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:56 am
#19
NewJedi wrote:
The standard reply right now is: the demise of the Holocron will improve things. I'm afraid they're in for a surprise. The end of holo-grinding will have a marginal effect, but that's all.
Exactly. What will happen is that the hologrinders will vanish, but there won't be any more new players who try the profession out of sheer curiosity than there are now. Basically, take the NPC cantinas as they are now, subtract all hologrinders, and what you have left will be what you'll have after Publish 10.
I'm already starting to see first signs of this in various formerly highly frequented cantinas both on Chimaera and Gorath. Last sunday at 10am there was not one entertainer in Theed cantina on Chim (although a few arrived during the next hour, but not many).
The damage is already done, and taking away holocrons will do nothing to help the profession back on its feet.
OromeRadiant
Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:19 am
#20
The following is rant because the other side of the argument needs to be voiced, once again it seems.
There are different ways to play a character or a profession. I know of a master musician, master dancer, partial merchant who runs her own cantina and keeps it staffed via an afk macro. I understand that you all are upset about afk-ers in your crowded npc cantina's, but out in the wilds of Dantooine, for example, where the nearest entertainer is easily 15 minutes away at least, a performer who keeps her cantina staffed should not be frowned upon. She's running a business. She is not a 'mule' for her 'primary' character, as this IS her primary character. In the same sense that crafters can stock their vendors, walk away, and make exp and profits, so does she. I'm curious how on earth you advocates of ATK-only manage to keep your player cantinas staffed. I'd be willing to bet most of you don't even run cantinas, or if you do, that they lie vacant and forgotten most of the time, waiting to frustrate battle-fatigued hunters as they glance around at your dusty, poorly decorated pub. That does not improve the feel of the game at all. All I hear from non-performers is how hard it is to find an entertainer when you need one, without having to visit Theed or Coronet, yet all I hear from you guys is how you think it should be even harder. Get out of those npc cantinas... build your own... then see how long you can perform ATK to maybe 1 audience member every 30 minutes. Gets dull, doesn't it. Downright ludicrous to even suggest that ATK performers should stay cloistered up in an often empty cantina for hours on end, hoping a stray traveller will visit. Let the afk cantina owners play their way, and you go chat and party in the over-crowded theed cantina, where your skills are redundant, and you fill no function that the other 2 dozen performers there don't already fill, and you can contribute further to the spam pollution. I'm not really bashing you folks who prefer that... its just not for everyone. I'm not even a performer, and I can't stand those crowded cantinas. Now, if you want to get on the cases of afk'ers who make a nuisance of themselves in npc cantinas, go for it, but don't make sweeping judgements and call for game changes that would not only ruin the play-style of some dedicated performers (she did, afterall dedicate virtually ALL of her skill points to this), but would also virtually condemn player cantinas to becomming city decorations that serve no function and no one would bother to even step foot in them, except when the stars align and an ATK performer happens to be passing by.
There are different ways to play a character or a profession. I know of a master musician, master dancer, partial merchant who runs her own cantina and keeps it staffed via an afk macro. I understand that you all are upset about afk-ers in your crowded npc cantina's, but out in the wilds of Dantooine, for example, where the nearest entertainer is easily 15 minutes away at least, a performer who keeps her cantina staffed should not be frowned upon. She's running a business. She is not a 'mule' for her 'primary' character, as this IS her primary character. In the same sense that crafters can stock their vendors, walk away, and make exp and profits, so does she. I'm curious how on earth you advocates of ATK-only manage to keep your player cantinas staffed. I'd be willing to bet most of you don't even run cantinas, or if you do, that they lie vacant and forgotten most of the time, waiting to frustrate battle-fatigued hunters as they glance around at your dusty, poorly decorated pub. That does not improve the feel of the game at all. All I hear from non-performers is how hard it is to find an entertainer when you need one, without having to visit Theed or Coronet, yet all I hear from you guys is how you think it should be even harder. Get out of those npc cantinas... build your own... then see how long you can perform ATK to maybe 1 audience member every 30 minutes. Gets dull, doesn't it. Downright ludicrous to even suggest that ATK performers should stay cloistered up in an often empty cantina for hours on end, hoping a stray traveller will visit. Let the afk cantina owners play their way, and you go chat and party in the over-crowded theed cantina, where your skills are redundant, and you fill no function that the other 2 dozen performers there don't already fill, and you can contribute further to the spam pollution. I'm not really bashing you folks who prefer that... its just not for everyone. I'm not even a performer, and I can't stand those crowded cantinas. Now, if you want to get on the cases of afk'ers who make a nuisance of themselves in npc cantinas, go for it, but don't make sweeping judgements and call for game changes that would not only ruin the play-style of some dedicated performers (she did, afterall dedicate virtually ALL of her skill points to this), but would also virtually condemn player cantinas to becomming city decorations that serve no function and no one would bother to even step foot in them, except when the stars align and an ATK performer happens to be passing by.
MusicalDina
Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:57 am
#21
Hmm. Orome, let me apologize for I am going to be very blunt. I dont mean to be disrespectful to you but you arent understanding the other side of the argument.
1. Owning your cantina takes work. You are trying to go about it with not putting much work in it. (i apologize for being blunt) Staffing it by yourself, while not playing, IS the easy way out. I DID own a cantina. I DIDN'T staff it by myself 24/7. You know what I did? I hired other entertainers and encouraged people to come out to my cantina. I made it a fun place to be, which in turn attracted others to it.
Saying that because some people you dont try to recruit to come work in your cantina, dont play there is absurd. They have no motive to go to your cantina, since as you say it is empty besides your AFK avatar for most of the time. I definately would go there see you are afk, and leave. It wouldnt be an enjoyable experience and i am betting most real entertainers would agree with me.
2. Sure the skills may be redundant in the npc cantinas, Theed and Coronet. Hearing this from somebody tends to mean one of two things. a, you started entertainer after the hologrind started, or b, you dont see the true value of the entertainer profession, and see it as more of a mind healing class than what it is, a social profession.
I am sure you have read this before, but before the hologrinding (often known as the good ole days) You could find a group of entertainers enjoying the company of each other, and inviting others (combatants or medic or crafters) into the cantina to have fun talking and enjoying the company of others. It was a place to meet people, learn cool and exciting stuff, and hear about feats people have done.
I met my former guildmates on gorath while playing in the cantina. I met well over 200 people who i filled my friendlist with. I chatted with these people pretty much until the day i decided to leave. I made many good friendships and even moved on to another game with some of them. THAT is the true meaning of the entertainer profession. There is NO redudancy in that. In fact the more 'redundancy' the better in this profession.
In conclusion, after re reading you post several times, your main argument is that player cantinas will become a decoration that serves no purpose because afkers are not allowed (IF). My argument is that it is up to the player to make sure this doesnt happen, and that your AFK body does not make a difference in that decoration. Meaning that you cantina is still a worthless decoration that serves only one purpose- to provide a place to get healed. Thats not what a cantina is and should never be only used for.
The entertainer is a social profession by design and to say it is OK to go away from the keyboard and be anti social is contrary to design. There is no way an AFK can provide the full service of an entertainer, and it is sad that the community has slighted us entertainers to say they can. It is sad the ATK have to compete with AFKers. It is sad the AFKer has become the norm and EXPECTED.
Fragpuppie
Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:49 am
#22
OromeRadiant wrote:
The following is rant because the other side of the argument needs to be voiced, once again it seems.
There are different ways to play a character or a profession. I know of a master musician, master dancer, partial merchant who runs her own cantina and keeps it staffed via an afk macro. I understand that you all are upset about afk-ers in your crowded npc cantina's, but out in the wilds of Dantooine, for example, where the nearest entertainer is easily 15 minutes away at least, a performer who keeps her cantina staffed should not be frowned upon. She's running a business. She is not a 'mule' for her 'primary' character, as this IS her primary character. In the same sense that crafters can stock their vendors, walk away, and make exp and profits, so does she. I'm curious how on earth you advocates of ATK-only manage to keep your player cantinas staffed. I'd be willing to bet most of you don't even run cantinas, or if you do, that they lie vacant and forgotten most of the time, waiting to frustrate battle-fatigued hunters as they glance around at your dusty, poorly decorated pub. That does not improve the feel of the game at all. All I hear from non-performers is how hard it is to find an entertainer when you need one, without having to visit Theed or Coronet, yet all I hear from you guys is how you think it should be even harder. Get out of those npc cantinas... build your own... then see how long you can perform ATK to maybe 1 audience member every 30 minutes. Gets dull, doesn't it. Downright ludicrous to even suggest that ATK performers should stay cloistered up in an often empty cantina for hours on end, hoping a stray traveller will visit. Let the afk cantina owners play their way, and you go chat and party in the over-crowded theed cantina, where your skills are redundant, and you fill no function that the other 2 dozen performers there don't already fill, and you can contribute further to the spam pollution. I'm not really bashing you folks who prefer that... its just not for everyone. I'm not even a performer, and I can't stand those crowded cantinas. Now, if you want to get on the cases of afk'ers who make a nuisance of themselves in npc cantinas, go for it, but don't make sweeping judgements and call for game changes that would not only ruin the play-style of some dedicated performers (she did, afterall dedicate virtually ALL of her skill points to this), but would also virtually condemn player cantinas to becomming city decorations that serve no function and no one would bother to even step foot in them, except when the stars align and an ATK performer happens to be passing by.
Well you have stated your case well, however I must disagree on some points.
You state that this is how your friend chooses to "play" the game. I'll say she's not playing at all, but is grinding buffs and healing.
You seem to imply that it is the right of anyone to get easy convienient entertainer healing and buffs whenever and wherever they are. I wish that would be the case for medical skills also. Replace entertainer and cantina with Medic and med center for everything you wrote, and you can see my side.Often I go the the busy Med Centers in Theed or Coronet looking for wound heals only to find 10-12 people on AFK tumble and heal macros. I've learned to live with it. Convienient entertainer healing is no more a right than for me to expect to find a medic to tend my wounds in every med center or to never have to look for a smugler to open a locked container. As an entertainer my job is to heal, buff and entertain. Nowhere does it state that I have to make it convienient for people who happen to be in the area. If it does there are many docs I want to talk to about buffing in more convienient locations ...as theywould be thenexpected to do.
Healing is 1/3 of what we do. Buffing is also 1/3. When they are eliminated from our game play by afk entertainers we only have 1/3 left, the social aspect. That is in danger due to the inhospitable nature of the npc cantinas, and has only been somewhat allieviated by player cantinas. Buffbotting in a player cantina is a better solution than in Theed or Coronet. It affects us less, but it still takes away business.
Everything will change when the grind goes. Maybe for the better, maybe not. I'm in "wait and see" mode. I choose to play my game not buffbotting, and I think I enjoy the game a good amount.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Band Leader and Booking Agent - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
OromeRadiant
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:03 am
#23
Just to clarify, I'm not speaking for myself, but for someone else. I was, in fact, a dancer way back when, before holos, and before I started surrendering skills for the first time. I'm familiar with the ideal of social butterflies performing and genuinely 'entertaining.' The performer I'm speaking of picked up entertainer on day 1 following release, and leveled the old-fashioned way, practically never afk, and with no looping macros. She was a dancer and liked being a dancer, but didn't like crowded cantinas, so she placed her own. Our city was born on day 1 of player cities, grew at the maximum rate, and she placed the cantina on the first day it was possible to place it. No doubt she was one of the first few cantina owners in the galaxy. After realizing her cantina sat empty most of the time, she developed an afk macro. After buffs were beginning to be understood, she developed probably one of the first afk buff macros (an 8 minute monster), and then went on to master musician, and included that in the macro, which was later refined and is now a variation of the 3:10 macro. None of that was copy-catted by the way... it was all original coding designed to help out her guild in the best way she could, her being the one responsible for the cantina and the healing of our guild's BF. She sacrificed all her combat skills just so she could do this. She's poured millions of credits and untold hours into decorating. Our guild's cantina is still the best looking one I've ever seen. (this is just provided as background, to know where I'm coming from)
Now, back to the issue at hand. What I see is 'social butterflies' who like to chat it up in crowded cantinas, but are ticked at the afk'ers in these npc cantinas who, through gross inconsideration, manage to hog the floorspace and spam in spatial. I'd be upset too. But what I don't agree with is taking this frustration and aiming it at all afk'ers, even if the afk'ers in question haven't set foot in a public cantina in months, and who's customers would never have flown to theed or coronet anyway. I think that's just outright rediculous. I'm glad you and so many other ATK entertainers are keeping the static cantinas hoppin (though I wish it was more than just those 2). The entertainer profession itself is a service profession. You provide for your audience. Same with doctors. If you are social, and like to chat with strangers and old acquaintences, then great, you add something extra. Do you criticize the docs who buff outside starports but don't 'chat it up' with their patients? Do you also demand that they be social? This is the only profession I've seen where people are so busy telling others how to play it. You don't see BH's telling other BH's that they have to be 'social' as they gather around the mission terminals. Architects aren't told that they HAVE TO fully stock their vendors or that they HAVE TO fill custom orders. Crafters do a little work, put things up for sale, then walk away. I don't see a 'movement' of people trying to ban vendors because they aren't 'social' enough. Why not demand that crafters should have to sell everything face to face? That would encourage more social interaction, right? Also, the other argument... the selfish argument, as I see it, is that all afk'ers cut into your profits. /tongue in cheek: Well, other crafters cut into my profits. If I was committed to a social-only approach to selling goods, I might very well decry the use of all those vendors that are 'cheapening' my profession. Those lazy crafters who never even see their customers are just ruining it for all us 'real' crafters, who spend our times spamming outside starports and bazaars, trying to meet real people who want our goods.
If your argument is that you're losing profit due to the buff-bot in question, let me remind you that her customers weren't going to visit a coronet cantina anyway. She's not stealing customers. AND, even if she was, that is her right, as a dedicated professional. It is every crafter's god-given right to steal MY customers, whether that crafter is ATK or not. You can't demand everyone conform to your single minded way of playing. Each profession should be able to be used as the player sees fit.
All I know is I see a wonderful person who is providing an incredibly valuable service in a very asthetically pleasing manner, improving the atmosphere and enjoyability of the game for dozens of guildies, and is not harming anyone, yet her entire vision for her character and her profession and her playing style is being attacked by people who play the game in an entirely different manner for a different type of audience on a completely different planet. Boot afk'ers from the theed cantina if you have to, but leave the cantina owners alone. They are not your enemy.
/grumbles something unitelligible about witch hunters and mobs with torches.
Now, back to the issue at hand. What I see is 'social butterflies' who like to chat it up in crowded cantinas, but are ticked at the afk'ers in these npc cantinas who, through gross inconsideration, manage to hog the floorspace and spam in spatial. I'd be upset too. But what I don't agree with is taking this frustration and aiming it at all afk'ers, even if the afk'ers in question haven't set foot in a public cantina in months, and who's customers would never have flown to theed or coronet anyway. I think that's just outright rediculous. I'm glad you and so many other ATK entertainers are keeping the static cantinas hoppin (though I wish it was more than just those 2). The entertainer profession itself is a service profession. You provide for your audience. Same with doctors. If you are social, and like to chat with strangers and old acquaintences, then great, you add something extra. Do you criticize the docs who buff outside starports but don't 'chat it up' with their patients? Do you also demand that they be social? This is the only profession I've seen where people are so busy telling others how to play it. You don't see BH's telling other BH's that they have to be 'social' as they gather around the mission terminals. Architects aren't told that they HAVE TO fully stock their vendors or that they HAVE TO fill custom orders. Crafters do a little work, put things up for sale, then walk away. I don't see a 'movement' of people trying to ban vendors because they aren't 'social' enough. Why not demand that crafters should have to sell everything face to face? That would encourage more social interaction, right? Also, the other argument... the selfish argument, as I see it, is that all afk'ers cut into your profits. /tongue in cheek: Well, other crafters cut into my profits. If I was committed to a social-only approach to selling goods, I might very well decry the use of all those vendors that are 'cheapening' my profession. Those lazy crafters who never even see their customers are just ruining it for all us 'real' crafters, who spend our times spamming outside starports and bazaars, trying to meet real people who want our goods.
If your argument is that you're losing profit due to the buff-bot in question, let me remind you that her customers weren't going to visit a coronet cantina anyway. She's not stealing customers. AND, even if she was, that is her right, as a dedicated professional. It is every crafter's god-given right to steal MY customers, whether that crafter is ATK or not. You can't demand everyone conform to your single minded way of playing. Each profession should be able to be used as the player sees fit.
All I know is I see a wonderful person who is providing an incredibly valuable service in a very asthetically pleasing manner, improving the atmosphere and enjoyability of the game for dozens of guildies, and is not harming anyone, yet her entire vision for her character and her profession and her playing style is being attacked by people who play the game in an entirely different manner for a different type of audience on a completely different planet. Boot afk'ers from the theed cantina if you have to, but leave the cantina owners alone. They are not your enemy.
/grumbles something unitelligible about witch hunters and mobs with torches.
OromeRadiant
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:43 am
#24
frag-- I'm not telling ANYONE how to play their char, that's my point. Most of the player cantinas on Dantooine in our galaxy lie vacant virtually all the time. I'm not telling those owners what to do. But if you step back, and realistically look at the situation, player cantinas are useless wastes of lots if they aren't serving their purpose... namely healing and buffing visitors. buffbots are about the only way, short of a serious and costly gig-hiring scenario that player cantinas will ever be of any use. Also, you questioned whether or not she actually is 'playing' the game. When she's online, she decorates, stocks vendors, chats, etc... she's even been known to accompany major base assaults/defenses. The fact that she provides a service while not at the keyboard is actually very analogous to how vendors work. Would you suggest that crafters who only log on to fire up factories, restock vendors, then log off again are not 'playing?' Should their vendors 'swith off' when the player logs out? Her macro stays fine-tuned, with entertaining emotes, informative messages, etc. She is an officer in our guild, a city militia member, and is active on our guild forums. She is very much 'playing' this game just like everyone else. She just happens to be using the same tools as those annoying afk'ers in npc cantinas, so you all feel she is open for vilification too. Sorry, but you guys need to think about it some more, and get off the high horse of "we're the only ones playing the game as intended, and alternate playing styles should be banned."
I hold no love for afk'ers in npc cantinas. If they're grinding exp, fine, let them group up, then they should banish themselves to a back room before going afk, and lay off the spam. If they're in it for the profit and are hoping to steal audience members from live performers, I'd say that's selfish and unethical. If, however, they took their afk butts out of there, and performed out where there were no entertainers, consequently making less profit, I'd say they were providing a valuable service that is generally not being provided given our galaxy's current population distribution. And the sacrifice of not making as much money in exchange for helping out other players should be respected.
And on the 'convinience factor'... I never said it SHOULD be convenient, but when someone tries to make it convenient, why must they be scorned? Are you saying it SHOULD NOT be convenient? Is that the driving force of the ATK zealots? INconvenience? Also, regarding medical convenience, there are doctor buffbots, too. I also don't have any issues with them. Honestly, I don't see as much outcry from the doctor community regarding afk'ers as I do from the entertainers, and I still think the reason is the spam pollution in the npc cantinas and the spillover of generalized, mis-placed hatred for all things afk.
I too am hoping that the ending of the misguided hologrind will put a damper on the large numbers of 'master fast as you can' afk-ers you guys have to cope with in those crowded little cantinas you guys seem to love so much
I hold no love for afk'ers in npc cantinas. If they're grinding exp, fine, let them group up, then they should banish themselves to a back room before going afk, and lay off the spam. If they're in it for the profit and are hoping to steal audience members from live performers, I'd say that's selfish and unethical. If, however, they took their afk butts out of there, and performed out where there were no entertainers, consequently making less profit, I'd say they were providing a valuable service that is generally not being provided given our galaxy's current population distribution. And the sacrifice of not making as much money in exchange for helping out other players should be respected.
And on the 'convinience factor'... I never said it SHOULD be convenient, but when someone tries to make it convenient, why must they be scorned? Are you saying it SHOULD NOT be convenient? Is that the driving force of the ATK zealots? INconvenience? Also, regarding medical convenience, there are doctor buffbots, too. I also don't have any issues with them. Honestly, I don't see as much outcry from the doctor community regarding afk'ers as I do from the entertainers, and I still think the reason is the spam pollution in the npc cantinas and the spillover of generalized, mis-placed hatred for all things afk.
I too am hoping that the ending of the misguided hologrind will put a damper on the large numbers of 'master fast as you can' afk-ers you guys have to cope with in those crowded little cantinas you guys seem to love so much
FarmerDozee
Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:29 pm
#26
I just want to say that Orome has brought up some nice valid points for us all to consider. Before we would always complain about the AFKers in the NPC Cantinas, and Orome here is saying just that. We've moved on to being more persnickety and saying that folks in their own homes/Cantinas shouldn't go AFK. Now I understand the issue pertains more to buffbots, but I personally liked Tralmek's suggestion of putting a FEE on the Cantina to access the buffbot. This way it doesn't de-value a buff from a musician, but just makes it more convenient. But then of course is the issue of combatants complaining about not getting the BF healing they need etc.
And that is why two Cantinas in one town is a good idea. I was visiting a city, and there were two Cantinas. One had a sign saying that there's always an AFK Buff-Bot inside. The other said no AFK entertainers allowed. Needless to say I went to the no-afk cantina and discovered a dancer who I chatted with for awhile. Soon an asping Musician joined us and we were having a blast. A couple folks came in for their healing needs, and spoiled the atmosphere with their gruff social attitudes. It worked nicely....
(I'm not sure if this post makes much sense, but I just wanted to say that Orome has some very good points.)