Dancer Archive
Thread: They responded to the top 5 lists! Oh...except ours. :(
I have to agree with Tiaga on this one. The afk issue is a game-breaker for me. I've seen what the profession was supposed to be and I've seen what it's degenerated into. The moment I give up any hope that it'll return to its former glory is the moment I'll cancel my subscription. I'm not quite ready to do that yet. SWG is the only game I've ever heard of that had professions designed specifically for socializers, and I want to at least put forth an effort to save that flower in the sidewalk before I walk away. I realize it's a longshot, but it's still the number one issuefor me. If I don't let my correspondent know how important the issue is to me, then I've failed. The correspondent's job is to gather the top issues from the players, organize them, and pass them on to the developers. While including the afk problem may ultimately result in a lack of action from those developers, a failure to include the issue will guarantee it.
Do you what really killed entertainers IMO? The change made just before the end of beta that took the experience away from /bandflourishes. How many of you entertainers from beta remember the huge dance troops that would welcome every entertainer (reguardless of skill)because even the AFK slobs could be made attractive when the real entertainers helped them perform using the /bandflourish.A lot of us who were entertainers in those days have long since been forced out of entertaining.
If I was to list the reasons why I dropped out of full time entertaining I guess it would look something like;
- No one talks.
- No one wants to choregraph dances (obviously there are soe but not like the big beta parties).
- People in general don't support entertainers as was predicted (Anyone else remember Holocron claiming that entertainers would be the richest player characters ROFLMAO, good call there chief)
- The promised entertainer missioncontent is still vaporware (uless you think those 200 credit missions are content).
- No leadership in the entertainer community. Our beta issues are the same issues you all are wrestling with now.
Niza wrote:
Do you what really killed entertainers IMO? The change made just before the end of beta that took the experience away from /bandflourishes. How many of you entertainers from beta remember the huge dance troops that would welcome every entertainer (reguardless of skill)because even the AFK slobs could be made attractive when the real entertainers helped them perform using the /bandflourish.A lot of us who were entertainers in those days have long since been forced out of entertaining.
I never let that stop me from throwinga few bandflourishes their way. After all, I'm not the one not getting xp for it, and they aren't there to complay. 
If I was to list the reasons why I dropped out of full time entertaining I guess it would look something like;
- No one talks.
Sure they do. Every 5 minutes exactly they say "Don't forget to tip the entertainers."
- No one wants to choregraph dances (obviously there are soe but not like the big beta parties).
There used to be, even a month or two after release. It wasn't until the big AFK sweep that this changed. I haven't even seen a couple dance in one of the big cantinas since then. On the other hand, some of the smaller cantinas can get interesting, but it's not big parties, just a few small people.
- People in general don't support entertainers as was predicted (Anyone else remember Holocron claiming that entertainers would be the richest player characters ROFLMAO, good call there chief)
Why support them when there is someone grinding that doesn't care? Just use the bot.
- The promised entertainer missioncontent is still vaporware (uless you think those 200 credit missions are content).
You got 200 crdit missions? I guess I didn't hit refresh enough hundred times. Though, the most interesting content for me has been player generated. Things like paid gigs, or other hired services.
- No leadership in the entertainer community. Our beta issues are the same issues you all are wrestling with now.
I think this can more be attributed to getting cold feet. They struck out boldly, putting in a class like entertainer. However, when it came down to entertainer vs combat, the reviews aren't written about the latest dance steps, they are written about the combat, both PvE and PvP, and maybe brush on crafting. The only review I'm aware of that does more than mention the entertainer profession mentiones it, beats it up,kicks it in the crotch, knocks it down, spits on it, then kicks it again. (Disclaimer: Dramatization, actual events may have differed.) So no matter how beneficial to the community an entertainer change may be, it is still in line behind combat and crafting.
And Poet, you may be so quick to give up and declare equine-necro-sadism, but I am not. I care about the profession and would love to see it made into what it could be. I've tossed a few ideas out, so have others. Eventually something will come along that will strike a balance between the entertainers and the grinders without either stepping on the other's toes. (And no, that isn't the case now. Leaving the cantina to the AFK crowd is being inconvenienced.)
So go ahead and dismiss the issue off-hand. But others still stand behind the class. Though, I do agree with Ravenmist not including it on the top 5 list. It is an entertainer issue, not a dancer issue.
Since SOE allows AFK macroing, I too strongly doubt something will be done. Just open your holocron and read the faq:
Q: Is AFK macroing allowed?
A: Yes it is ok to macro AFK.
If they allow it, then how can they pursuaded to combat it? Sounds like a catch 22 to me? (well kinda).
Lunah 
Just before the end of beta the devs were upset that thecommonlyusedmethod for learning entertainer skills was to gain them by joining a group and going AFK (the group would all have active entertainers that would use bandflourishes to get xp for the entire group). They decided that they didn't want AFK to be the standard for trainingenetertainer skills so they took the xp away from all but the person executingthe /bandflourish entirely... Unfortunately they didn't close off the other ways to loop for xp while AFK. So on one hand they took a stance against AFK macro to learn the skill and on the other they left an uglier and (in the long term) a profession damaging way to do the exact same thing.
When I started playing roughly a month after launch - I started as an entertainer - the profession already had a bad name then. It was already labeled the AFK-profession. To me that did not sound well and I have avoided AFK as much as possible. My opinion was formed more by those who visited the cantinas, our potentialcustomers/clients,and not so much by the entertainers.
There also is (maybe was) a lot of 'hatred' between the two camps. Those that did not feel it was wrong to macro afk often did not understand why I and others who opposed it so strongly, were so much against it. At one point I was somewhat drawn intothis 'struggle'by trying to take a stance, and not always allowing afk entertainers in a group, usually by vote. The reason here was simply inconvenience. Often a leader would log off without transfering leadership, and nine out of ten times it would come in the hands of an AFK entertainer. We could not communicate, socialize, or do anything that would make the time we spend in the cantina's a better one. The decision to not allow AFK'ers in the group oftenlead to a split up leaving a small group of entertainers and the majorityafk. Also, by not allowing the afk'ers in the group you miss out on a lot of xp, we'er in a way co-dependant on eachother. That made it all the more tricky for me. One hand I wanted to make a stand, but on the other hand not being so inflexible that it actualy would hurt the group in total.
I was proud when I became Master Dancer, without long periods of AFK (we all have to go some time, need to eat or drink something etc.) I never even used a macro. Not because I was against it, but because I could not get it timed right that it would be a smooth dance. By doing it this way I really felt I accomplished something. Due to circumstances I had to start over on a new account, and I did the exact same thing. Again, I don't have a problem with macros at all. It just didn't feel right at that time. This has helped me to build a positive reputation on this matter for myself, and you notice it in everything. From how people who visit interact with you up to the amount of tips that you would receive.
Now I am on a different server going for Master Dancer a third time. It is so very different now, with the holocrons putting every TKA and Commando on the catwalks, to strive to become jedi. The cantina's are packed with people working their skills, either musician or dancer, but to me it had lil to do with entertaining. Fine, we're just grinding skill then. We'll entertain once we hit master. When you see so many people being AFK, then it is hard to believe that it is actual wrong. Because if it was wrong, would you not see them incidental? Only here and there, scarcely spread throughout the galaxies? It was also the first time that I went afk myself. I was tired, so I set up a macro and let it run, turned AFK on and went to bed. When I woke up and continued playing I decided that it was not for me. Though I don't hear people really complaining about AFK anymore either, its as if it has been accepted as normal gameplay. I had that same feeling. A lot is now focussed around grinding professions, and in that process it seems accepted to do the grind AFK. yes, but wait, am I grinding a profession? No, I am not. So why would I need to go AFK. To play or to grind.
So, from within the game it is not always clear wether something is allowed or not. I used to think it was not, until i stumbled upon that part in the holocron. It made me believe that it was in fact allowed, and that AFK was ok as long as you used the tools inside the game. Unattended and AFK is the same to me. If you are "Away From Keyboard" then you are not there. And so far I have heard none say anything to discourage me in being an AFK entertainer. Neither fellow AFK Master Dancers, Entertainers or Master Musicians. Then that leads me to believe that the pure Entertainer, Dancer and Musician have fled from the cantina's andmovedundergrounds. Most people I talk to are there because the holocron told them.
If it wasn't for this forum I probably would have been under the wrong impression that it is ok toAFK-macro yourself to Master Dancer. This is currently what is set as an example and many follow it. I am not saying I would AFK macro my character 100%, but ... it is tempting to leave a macro running while I am in bed sleeping. More so because when I head to bed its around the busiest time in the US. I'm in CET (6-8 timezone), so EH xp has been a real drag. I have had to ask guildmembers to get killed for me many times just so I could get that last bit of xp. There are now European servers, but my friends are not there. So it is tempting to led my char running on a macro during the busiest times.
So crazy maybe, but if I cannot play then I would not mind to use AFK. If I can play, then I don't really see the point why I would use AFK.
So yes, as far as discouraging goes we still have a long way to go, I'm afraid. I'm sorry if I mention things that already has been said but its way past bedtime and I'm very tired. So I apologize in advance. Also English remains a challenge for me too Specialy when you want to really put down in words how you feel about a certain issue. Well this is just my personal experience written down, and it may even help me to figure it out
I'd never do that again.. It absolutely sucked. When I added music to her I just didalotof it AFK. :/ That's not to say I didn't play her a ton too.. Cause wellI did. Ha! I think that's whenI met you Lunah I was working on music
Since SOE allows AFK macroing, I too strongly doubt something will be done. Just open your holocron and read the faq:
Q: Is AFK macroing allowed?
A: Yes it is ok to macro AFK.
If they allow it, then how can they pursuaded to combat it? Sounds like a catch 22 to me? (well kinda).
There is a difference between allowing and encouraging. Yes, they allow AFK macroing. The reason they allow it is because they provided the tools, intentionally or not. To not allow it would be like to give a kid a candy cane and tell him not to eat it.
There are lots of times when something had been allowed but was changed.