Dancer Archive
Thread: Entertainer NPC's... Your Thoughts?
Page 12 of 12
PistolDance
Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:32 pm
#144
DeniraWyles wrote:
Pistoldance
DeniraWyles wrote:
What about those of us who don't want to visit outside of our homes when we're crafting? I think those type of anti-social players should be rewarded for having never to deal with a combat type at all. /rolls eyes
And you dont have to be social to be a crafter, any master crafter can also master ranger harvesting abilites and have enough skill points left over to be skilled enough in combat to collect the resources they need.
You have no logic and only attitude in your replies.
Interesting because a crafter does have to be socialable in order to deal with customers
Vendors.
or for items they themselves cannot get.
Template adjustment, dabbling. Even a doc could have enough skill points to attain harvesting, combat abilites and maintain enough skillpoints for vendor/surveying.
As me not having logic and when I used your own arguments against you from another point of view that must mean that you have no logic.
If you want to continue with this little attitude deal thats cool with me, but can we atleast talk about the proposals suggested while you roll your eyes at everyone?
DeniraWyles
Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:39 pm
#145
DeniraWyles wrote:
Pistoldance
DeniraWyles wrote:
Pistoldance
DeniraWyles wrote:
Those are called harvesters
DeniraWyles wrote:
Esistdarksky
I think instead of putting in Entertainer NPCs, they should chain the current PC Entertainers to their chairs with their eyes wired open.
That'd be FRICKIN AWESOME.
How about we put in NPC combat types instead of having to rely upon other human beings for resources. That'd be FRICKEN AWESOME.
Oh I didn't know that you can get herbivore or avian meat from a harvester. /rolls eyes
Man why does everyone on these forums have to be so rude when faced with any kind of opposition?
It's not being rude it's called being logical using your own logic against you. It's to get you to see how ridicules your 'idea' was when it was applied directly to your profession from a different viewpoint.
Considering it wasnt my logic and wasnt my profession I think your little /rolleyes was wasted on me.
Interesting since when faced with your own warped logic it falls apart when faced against the same logic. The only thing that your entire argument proves is how demeaning andselfish of what this 'idea' does.
What idea are talking about?
The idea of using another form of a bot to bring less interdependency upon entertainers. The same logic/idea can be used for bots to be put in for the other professions.
I merely used your own statements against you and when you decided to get smart with me about the harvesters I showed that you hadn't the forsight to think that through because I was coming from a doctor's point of view who needs those two type of resources they need for meds.
I wasnt getting smart with you, stop the attitude please, I was making a joke. I am a doc, I know what goes into gathreing resources. But you dont need to be social to do it, and why would you choose doc if you werent social, its a support profession?
Your answers were a smart alecky response that was to elicit humor, but it backfired on you. Why would any choose a combat profession if they hated killing or interacting with other players to sell hides/meats/bones? No man is an island not in the real world and definately not in the game world. Yet, you and others wish that you could be an island so you wouldn't have to deal with other people.
Oh that's right, you can't think outside of your own little world to look at the big picture from other points of view.
Whats your point of view? That a player has to be social in SWG in order to be rewarded for hard work?
Being social and an entertainer is hard work. I point to those that work in the service industry like restuarants that put in 10 times the amount of labor into doing something for a job then lawyers or other professions do in the entire careers in a single day. Would you not consider that to be hard work? How about handling 6 or 7 tells, 8 people talking to you in spatial, 8 people in guild chat, and all the people in a large entertainer group to be hard work? Your entire premise is flawed that being social is not hard work considering that everything that you have to say has to be typed in manually.
DeniraWyles
Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:49 pm
#146
DeniraWyles wrote:
Pistoldance
DeniraWyles wrote:
What about those of us who don't want to visit outside of our homes when we're crafting? I think those type of anti-social players should be rewarded for having never to deal with a combat type at all. /rolls eyes
And you dont have to be social to be a crafter, any master crafter can also master ranger harvesting abilites and have enough skill points left over to be skilled enough in combat to collect the resources they need.
You have no logic and only attitude in your replies.
Interesting because a crafter does have to be socialable in order to deal with customers
Vendors.
Oh really you can get that special order item made without having to ever interact with the crafter or the crafter to ensure that the customer picks up their special order? Interesting since my best friend is a master tailor and she has to deal with customers all the time.
or for items they themselves cannot get.
Template adjustment, dabbling. Even a doc could have enough skill points to attain harvesting, combat abilites and maintain enough skillpoints for vendor/surveying.
Oh you can most certainly do that, but you wouldn't be very good at it. Not quite as good as those that are dedicated to only to two masteries.
As me not having logic and when I used your own arguments against you from another point of view that must mean that you have no logic.
If you want to continue with this little attitude deal thats cool with me, but can we atleast talk about the proposals suggested while you roll your eyes at everyone?
Yeah I have lots of proposals for ruining yours and everyone elses professions while you discuss the destruction of mine. Sounds pretty fair to me, but then you don't like it when your own ideas are applied to you directly. I know let's all go to the doc forums and demand the devs to make those npc doctors and medics useful for healing/buffing people because there's never a doc around when you need one. That sounds just perfect to me and you know what why don't we all have these npc docs give their heals and buffs for free while we're at it to make sure we put the final nail in the coffin for your profession.
DeniraWyles
Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:37 am
#147
Interesting because a crafter does have to be socialable in order to deal with customers
Vendors.
Oh really you can get that special order item made without having to ever interact with the crafter or the crafter to ensure that the customer picks up their special order? Interesting since my best friend is a master tailor and she has to deal with customers all the time.
Yes... for that special personalized touch you track down the crafter. For run-of-the-mill, you use their vendor. And since you're comparing the two, the equivilant for an Entertainer would be?
Oh you mean buy stuff that you're not sure if the color will match your character etc... you will take the chance of buying something that would look awful. I get ya, but most of the people I know don't buy off the rack, but order it special and get it that way.
Xyrdre
Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:05 am
#148
I seem to remember past discussions on these boards about BF/mind wound healing recordings of some type or another. One of the issues that came up then, as now, is regarding where the entertainer healing XP goes.
Obviously, the way things work now without recordings is that players come into cantinas, and watch or listen to entertainers there who are often grouped. The healing XP goes to not only the watched/listened to entertainer, but is also additive to all other members of the entertainer group. I don't think that anyone has done serious testing on this to get the actual hard numbers, but it is safe to say that the entertainer healing XP is not divided amongst the entertainer group, but instead seems to be that all ents in the group get XP as if they were the ones being watched/listened to, for the duration of the healing.
It thereforeappears that if Joe Combat comes in with 300 BF and watches a master dancer grouped with 9 other entertainers, that the healing XP being generated is (proportionately) done 10 times over, once for every grouped entertainer. This extra healing XPis critical to leveling entertainers.
Since any type of recording device would be used at a later time, we must assume that any healing XP coming from its use would go solelyto the creator of the device, as it may be a bit much to ask that the system run a check when the device is used to see if a) the item creator is online, and if so, b) if the item creator is still an entertainer, and if so, c) if the creator is currently grouped, and if so, d) if there are other performing entertainers in that group at the time to share out some XP with. Some kind of elaborate check system like this would likely be necessary to have any idea of including additive healing XP the way that the current system works, and is likely unfeasible. So, the healing XP goes solely to the device creator, and already we've reduced the total amount of XP going to the entertainer community significantly.
If we assume that any kind of holovid device for healing would perform that healing at the rates of the entertainer who made it, then clearly the market would be for Master made recordings, as they would heal dramatically faster than non-masters recordings. Masters are the ones who do not need the healing XP, unless they are working towards mastering a second entertainer profession at the time. The ones who suffer the losses of the already elusive entertainer healing XP are the ones who need it most- those leveling entertainer characters. I think we would essentially see a shift to the situation that crafters face - there is reallyonly a reliablemarket for Master made goods. By providing BF healing in a can, are we negating the ability of leveling entertainers from gaining healing XP to a large degree?
The questions of XP mechanics alone calls serious question to the concept of entertainer healing devices as gamebreakers, at a system level. In order to provide such devices to the game environment for the sake of convenience, I think a complete overhaul of the healing XP system would be required, with a total rebalancing for that new environment of the healing XP requirements of the professions.
Basically, when you introduce a new method of performing interdependent functions within a system, even one that is seemingly small such as this, the dynamics of that system can have sweeping effects across the entire environment of that system. Call it the Butterfly Effect. And it must be approached cautiously, or you can quickly find a much worse situation than before you started.
BiNcY112
Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:02 pm
#149
I am kinda indifferent, but I have nothing against the idea...
SmedleyLlama
Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:42 am
#150
Xyrdre wrote:
I seem to remember past discussions on these boards about BF/mind wound healing recordings of some type or another. One of the issues that came up then, as now, is regarding where the entertainer healing XP goes.
Obviously, the way things work now without recordings is that players come into cantinas, and watch or listen to entertainers there who are often grouped. The healing XP goes to not only the watched/listened to entertainer, but is also additive to all other members of the entertainer group. I don't think that anyone has done serious testing on this to get the actual hard numbers, but it is safe to say that the entertainer healing XP is not divided amongst the entertainer group, but instead seems to be that all ents in the group get XP as if they were the ones being watched/listened to, for the duration of the healing.
It thereforeappears that if Joe Combat comes in with 300 BF and watches a master dancer grouped with 9 other entertainers, that the healing XP being generated is (proportionately) done 10 times over, once for every grouped entertainer. This extra healing XPis critical to leveling entertainers.
Since any type of recording device would be used at a later time, we must assume that any healing XP coming from its use would go solelyto the creator of the device, as it may be a bit much to ask that the system run a check when the device is used to see if a) the item creator is online, and if so, b) if the item creator is still an entertainer, and if so, c) if the creator is currently grouped, and if so, d) if there are other performing entertainers in that group at the time to share out some XP with. Some kind of elaborate check system like this would likely be necessary to have any idea of including additive healing XP the way that the current system works, and is likely unfeasible. So, the healing XP goes solely to the device creator, and already we've reduced the total amount of XP going to the entertainer community significantly.
If we assume that any kind of holovid device for healing would perform that healing at the rates of the entertainer who made it, then clearly the market would be for Master made recordings, as they would heal dramatically faster than non-masters recordings. Masters are the ones who do not need the healing XP, unless they are working towards mastering a second entertainer profession at the time. The ones who suffer the losses of the already elusive entertainer healing XP are the ones who need it most- those leveling entertainer characters. I think we would essentially see a shift to the situation that crafters face - there is reallyonly a reliablemarket for Master made goods. By providing BF healing in a can, are we negating the ability of leveling entertainers from gaining healing XP to a large degree?
The questions of XP mechanics alone calls serious question to the concept of entertainer healing devices as gamebreakers, at a system level. In order to provide such devices to the game environment for the sake of convenience, I think a complete overhaul of the healing XP system would be required, with a total rebalancing for that new environment of the healing XP requirements of the professions.
Basically, when you introduce a new method of performing interdependent functions within a system, even one that is seemingly small such as this, the dynamics of that system can have sweeping effects across the entire environment of that system. Call it the Butterfly Effect. And it must be approached cautiously, or you can quickly find a much worse situation than before you started.
I wouldn't speak too loudly about entertainer group XP when discussing this subject. Especially since combat classes are forced to split the XP they receive when grouped, based on how much damage they actually do. You may find the Devs decide to nerf that "feature" as well. 
However... Simply by giving the XP at the time of the objects creation (ala crafters), there would be no trouble determining who gets the XP. In fact, it could be argued that this would make Healing XP that much easier tocome by,because it could be done without anyone watching, if it were done this way.
We might even be able to convince a few Dancers to move out to a few of the less populated cantinas, if they thought they could do something productive while they were there.
Message Edited by SmedleyLlama on 08-10-2004 10:44 AM
Oqua
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:12 am
#151
I wouldn't speak too loudly about entertainer group XP when discussing this subject. Especially since combat classes are forced to split the XP they receive when grouped, based on how much damage they actually do. You may find the Devs decide to nerf that "feature" as well.
Well you know what...I am going to speak pretty loudly about it, and hopefully others will too.
I never was really concerned about afk zombies/bots affecting me regarding monetary gain. My main concern was (which I have stated previously) how they were causing the xp to drop significantly. I wasn't the only one who noticed it either.
I always have thought that if the devs are holding steadfast to the idea that bots and other such things that replace a "live" entertainer are the way to go, then the profession needs a complete overhaul so we are not dependent on others, just like most other classes,and able to be mastered entirely alone.
The fact that you say that about combat classes being grouped for xp? Please don't compare the two. I don't think I have ever been grouped for any combat class I mastered, yet I have mastered them in a day or two of serious hunting. And no, not even killing anything halfway dangerous during this hunting....talking about hunting huurtons or quenkers.
With entertainer not only am I dependent on the huge increase in xp when grouped with massivenumbers ofpeople, but also on the people who come in and look at said group...so its effects are felt twofold in this community Smedley.
Again, with Vid discs or holo whatevers recording the performance...I just worry that most will try and find either a former bot to massively distribute or a master (faster healing, etc.etc.), leavingthe up and coming artistsstill struggling with the gaining of xp in the cantina.
If the devs can look at all possible ramifications of whatever fix they come up with to placate the people crying out that "nerfing" their bots is game breaking; if they can come up with a solution thats not going to have the same effect or worse on the entertainment community, then I am all for the vid discs or holo things.
Xyrdre
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:46 am
#152
SmedleyLlama wrote:
I wouldn't speak too loudly about entertainer group XP when discussing this subject. Especially since combat classes are forced to split the XP they receive when grouped, based on how much damage they actually do. You may find the Devs decide to nerf that "feature" as well.
However... Simply by giving the XP at the time of the objects creation (ala crafters), there would be no trouble determining who gets the XP. In fact, it could be argued that this would make Healing XP that much easier tocome by,because it could be done without anyone watching, if it were done this way.
We might even be able to convince a few Dancers to move out to a few of the less populated cantinas, if they thought they could do something productive while they were there.
Message Edited by SmedleyLlama on 08-10-2004 10:44 AM
I'm actually not very worried about a 'nerf' to grouped entertainer healing XP, for a couple of reasons. First, even with the current system in place with all that extra healing XP going out to the group, 95 times out of 100 it seems it's still that healing XP that's needed at the end for mastery - meaning that we're not getting healing XP too fast, and there's no imbalance (unless it's still too little, not too much). With the limitation placed that it's required that others watch us to gain that experience, the additive thing in groups is about the only reason that makes skill advancement feasible. Second, the system is encouraging grouping, which the devs appear to be pretty big on for this game.
Again, I don't think there are any hard numbers tested yet for healing XP group bonuses, but let's look at an example with some reasonable numbers. Let's say that Joe Combat is watching Master Dancer, and Master Dancer is getting 42 healing XP per tick. Now, put Master Dancer in a group of 15 entertainers... not only is Master Dancer now receiving a groupbonus, bringing the per-tick XP to say 55, but 14 other leveling entertainers are all getting about 35 XP per tick as well (lower skill levels so reduced XP, but with a group bonus on top). Using these wholly-made up (but reasonable)numbers, the difference is clear - in just one 8 second time period, the amount of healing XP that Joe Combat is generating with that same BF goes from 42 (Master alone)to 545 (14 x 35 [leveling ents]+ 55 [Master Dancer]). Every 8 seconds worth of watching a lone master in this exampleis costing the overall game environment 503 potential points ofhealing XP, or an almost 88% reduction in the amount of healing XP generated to the entertainment world. And, healing XP granted for use of a healing holovid is the same as watching the ungrouped Master, therefore costing the environment the same potential.
Furthermore, I believe that this additional XP being generated for the group is intentional and by design... meant to encourage grouping, and is evidenced in the rates of advancement of entertainers through the healing skill trees. As it currently stands, that group XP bonus, and the additive nature of healing XP, is what provides entertainers the ability to gain those healing skill boxes. It's why we group up in the 'big group' to get it. Even with these much larger numbers, both per entertainer and for the environment, healing XP is usually the last to be satisfied for Mastery. I put forth that those grouping bonuses and multipliersare what our XP skill progressiongain rates are based on, and changing this to shift focus to the single player crafting model would be devastating to entertainer leveling potential.
Regardless of any other effects on the game that crafting of vids might have, granting healing XP for entertainer crafting would likelykeep manyentertainers out of the active cantina sceneand into crafting solitude -not what I think was envisioned for the professions.If it was known that you had a choice whereby you could eitherbe out performing (the way we're supposed to for skill advancement) and maybe get lucky with some healing XP, or stockpile resources and sit at home to craft itemsand know you'd gethealing XP, I think that entertainer healing would likely change dramatically as people went for the sure thing. Entertainer healing would likely turn into craft grinding rather than public performance, and I don't think that is the intended role for entertainers.
Lets not forget alsothat one of the cited reasons that we were given about why entertainers can't buff ourselves was that buffing grants a very small amount of healing XP, and the devs were concerned that all we'd do for thathealing XPwas grind out self buffing to get it.
Awarding entertainer healing XP for a holovidat the time of crafting, whereas easier for the system to track or easier to get,simply doesn't make sense to me. If no healing has occured, where did the experience come from? Conceptually, making 1000 holovids anddestroying them(typical grinding behavior) has healed no one, andis not the same thing as actually helping another player with theirgameplay (BF/mind wound healing).If holovids were to be entertainers' version of the medic's stimpacks, there would need to be a seperate skill line just as they have - Ent Healing Crafting, and Ent Healing Use. Awarding healing XP for crafting the item is like awarding healing XP for making stimpacks. On a conceptual level,crafting of holovidsshould be crafting XP of some type, and well, we're not really supposed to be a crafting profession. There's a whole other playstyle, and many other professional choices, to satisfy that style of gameplay.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the current system by which ent healing XP comes is perfect. What I am saying is that I think that the crafting or recording of holovids is likely only to make things worse for entertainersin many ways, regardless of the potential benefits for the combat community. Concepts like these should proceed with caution to be sure that the face of the game is not accidentally changed into something radically different andunintended, lest the end result is more damaging overall than the original problem.
I would not be opposed to radical sweeping change, if it was for the overallimprovement of the game... not just for combat players who want more convenient BF healing or buffing, but for everyone. I fear though that BF Healing in a Can would change the nature of the game environment to one where the bazaar or vendors, notthe showhalls of the galaxy, are where entertainers ply their trade - and one where the social playstyle gives way to the crafting playstyle. And I personallydon't like that vision of the entertainmentfuture.
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