Dancer Archive
Thread: City Professions: Entertainer, Pol, Merchant
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Panthu
Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:37 pm
#1
So, how bad would people freak out if we moved to an entirely new Social Skill Tree?
Either:
- ID, Performer, Merchant, Pol - Meaning, no more EH line and Musician and Dancer over lap their boxes to become "Performers"
... or...
- Entertainer, Relaxation Specialist (EH), Merchant, Pol - Meaning, ID/Musician/Dancer all over lap their boxes to become "Entertainers" but all functional Ent features (BF Healing, MW Healing, Buffing, and Stat Migrations) all move to a new Prof called "Relaxation Specialist" or some other new name
Point would be to make Social and City profs have a bigger system of our own that could really compete with Combat and Crafting for an equal portion of the game.
What would be good with this change? What would be bad for us as former "Dancers"?
NJ62
Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:58 pm
#2
I'm probably in the minority here but here goes:
So based on those issues, yes, I'm all for combining musician and dancer. It would be lovely if we got a whole lot of new content, but it still doesn't change the fact that a lot of dancer and musician overlap, and that is never going to go away.
- Currently there is little to differentiate musician and dancer functionality-wise
- Other professions "stack". If you do fencer and swordsman you get both. Musician and dancer have a lot of duplicative aspects.
- The skill point cost is not worth the current perks. The skill point cost for both professions if you want to be a musician/dancer is DEFINITELY not worth the overlapping perks.
- ID has always been its own separate animal
- Doctors have a whole lot more functionality than dancer + musician combined
So based on those issues, yes, I'm all for combining musician and dancer. It would be lovely if we got a whole lot of new content, but it still doesn't change the fact that a lot of dancer and musician overlap, and that is never going to go away.
KaiaClodgah
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:01 pm
#4
*nods* combine away...but (and this is my 22-year old brain pretending it's 13) Relaxation Specialist makes me think of like "happy ending" massages or some such thing.
Aynianu
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:28 pm
#5
I would not rush to combine them, i would prefer idealy to give both a lot of new features widely different from one another, yet stackable and work very well together.
If failing that. Then id have no complaints in merging the proffessions really.
PoetDancer
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:37 pm
#6
If we are to change the skill point distribution, or combine our functions with other professions that are distinct, then we have to at least inquire as to why the professions were created as they were in the first place.
And here is the reason I believe it costs a dancer, musician, or ID as many skill points as it does: We were meant to be rare, and not always available.
Many of our originalcharacteristics support this notion. Our detractors say that "most people do not see the point in watching their character flourish all day." And I have to say, I agree with them.Not too many players in this game can or have any desire to do what we do. And that by all rights should make those who are willing to do the things we do rare, special, and valuable. I am sure that the skill point cost, the time to gain proficiency, and the bifurcation of our cantina function are all natural constraints designed to keep entertainers rare.
Now of course, this rarity is offset by the manner in which we distribute the mechanics. BF healing, mind wound healing, and to a great extent buffs are all passively applied, which meant that these things were available as long as the performer kept on performing. The trick was to keep the performer performing in a venue, so that the city around the venue could be serviced. And as long as entertainers were to remain rare, then players naturally had to be good to entertainers: both financially and in terms of hospitality. Woe be itto the jerk who scared off the dancerin the old days, because that jerk denied the whole city a way to tend to their statistics. And while I am very much motivated to perform, I was also not going to stay in an area that did not treat me to the standards I felt were justified, given my committment to dance, and my committment to sit in "the grey box."
But the cantina system only really works if entertainers are rare. Becausewhen entertainersbecome too common, our viability breaks down. Two entertainers in a venue become redundant. Second instances that run unattended don't need to be motivated to sit in the grey box. They'll do it simply because the programmer gives it no choice but to do it. And soon, entertainment becomes less of a limiting consideration, gameplay becomes impoverished for us, the profession really does start to resemble merely "watching one's character flourish all day," and the very constraints designed to keep us rare become more of a burden to our viability than an assett to ensure our viability.
Our problems don't stem from the notion that we spend too much in skill points for not enough perks. Our problems stem from the fact that the natural constraints keeping entertainment rare, and therefore valuable, are becoming all too common due to second instance mules.
I am very, very insulted that the developers saw the rarity of entertainment services as a problem that needs to be solved via code in the "Recursive Macros are Going Away: Part 2" thread. Because if they even gave any thought as to how these professions are designed to work, they would realize that the entire viability and rationalle behind the cantina professions rests on entertainment services not always being available to players. If you cut that out, then the playability of theseclasses start to break down.
And if we decide we want to make these professions more common, then by all means mess with the skill structure. But I'd rather keep us rare, committed, special, and valuable. It is the only way we gained leverage before toward our patrons, and the only way we will ever gain the respect of players who by-in-large refuse to accept our service as a legitimate one in any game they want to play.
DanceRulez
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:39 pm
#7
First off, Panthu, why do you ask??? Hmmmmm?
Ok, to answer the question with some of my thoughts. On the issue of combining Musician and Dancer into one profession, unless they find a way to fully differentiate Musician from Dancer, as in make them separate professions with more clearly defined roles and less overlap, I think I could fully live with these two professions being merged into one. I can understand why people would want to keep them separate, but functionally there's so little difference between us that I think we are already having a lot of difficulty trying to differentiate ourselves. The biggest difference that we do have probably is that we buff different stats, but I think under the current system, at least, this creates something of an unfair hardship on the combat players who have to find 3 different professions to give them a full set of buffs - and 2 out of those 3 are entertainers who many already have issues dealing with in the first place. In addition to that combining our skills would give each of us more options to express ourselves with the same amount of skill points or free up some more of our skill points to try something else.People who want to be musicians can still just play music, and people who want to dance can just dance, and those who want to dabble can do both. I think this might be a reasonable way to solve some of our issues.
On the matter of some kind of new "Social Professions" base tree adding in Politician and Merchant, I don't like this as much. They've already removed the SP requirement from Politician, so would they want to add some sort of SP requirement back into it by linking it with the other professions that do have a SP cost? I thought they had good reason for removing the SP cost from Politician in the first place, unless they plan on revamping that somehow too. If not, then would they really have a tree where some branches have SP cost and others don't? Merchant seems more suited to the artisan tree where it is now, though I can see where it might make sense to have some kind of "social" skill to it - perhaps requiring a branch from Artisan and a branch from "Social". As far as ID, I've always considered that to be more akin to doctor than to entertainer. Considering the body shaping they do in the advanced levels, you would need medical experience to be able to do that. No offense to ID's but I've always thought they should be moved over to the Medic tree.
If we followed my suggestions, there might only be Performer and possibly some line for merchant coming out of some new "Social" tree which is probably not the best solution. If we adopt your proposal, Panthu, we'd have Performer, ID, Merchant, and Politician coming out of this same tree. Either way what does this do to "Master Socialite" or whatever it might be called? What kind of combination of skills might that contain and would it be worth it for anyone?
I think I would prefer some better differentiation between Musician and Dancer first and better design of how the professions work in the game, but failing that, perhaps the next best solution might be to go ahead and combine us as you said. As a dancer I wouldn't feel threatened if all musicians got dance skills, and if I suddenly got music skills. I think that that might actually be fun. I suspect many musicians who are males will probably continue to do mostly music. The females who are dancers will probably prefer to dance, but I bet the females in general will probably be more likely to do some of both (I know I would
). Purely speculation on my part however.
As to the tree reorganization, however, I can understand some reason for it, but I'm not liking the idea of adding in Politician and Merchant as much. I have a hard time seeing how that would really work, much less work well.
Ok, to answer the question with some of my thoughts. On the issue of combining Musician and Dancer into one profession, unless they find a way to fully differentiate Musician from Dancer, as in make them separate professions with more clearly defined roles and less overlap, I think I could fully live with these two professions being merged into one. I can understand why people would want to keep them separate, but functionally there's so little difference between us that I think we are already having a lot of difficulty trying to differentiate ourselves. The biggest difference that we do have probably is that we buff different stats, but I think under the current system, at least, this creates something of an unfair hardship on the combat players who have to find 3 different professions to give them a full set of buffs - and 2 out of those 3 are entertainers who many already have issues dealing with in the first place. In addition to that combining our skills would give each of us more options to express ourselves with the same amount of skill points or free up some more of our skill points to try something else.People who want to be musicians can still just play music, and people who want to dance can just dance, and those who want to dabble can do both. I think this might be a reasonable way to solve some of our issues.
On the matter of some kind of new "Social Professions" base tree adding in Politician and Merchant, I don't like this as much. They've already removed the SP requirement from Politician, so would they want to add some sort of SP requirement back into it by linking it with the other professions that do have a SP cost? I thought they had good reason for removing the SP cost from Politician in the first place, unless they plan on revamping that somehow too. If not, then would they really have a tree where some branches have SP cost and others don't? Merchant seems more suited to the artisan tree where it is now, though I can see where it might make sense to have some kind of "social" skill to it - perhaps requiring a branch from Artisan and a branch from "Social". As far as ID, I've always considered that to be more akin to doctor than to entertainer. Considering the body shaping they do in the advanced levels, you would need medical experience to be able to do that. No offense to ID's but I've always thought they should be moved over to the Medic tree.
If we followed my suggestions, there might only be Performer and possibly some line for merchant coming out of some new "Social" tree which is probably not the best solution. If we adopt your proposal, Panthu, we'd have Performer, ID, Merchant, and Politician coming out of this same tree. Either way what does this do to "Master Socialite" or whatever it might be called? What kind of combination of skills might that contain and would it be worth it for anyone?
I think I would prefer some better differentiation between Musician and Dancer first and better design of how the professions work in the game, but failing that, perhaps the next best solution might be to go ahead and combine us as you said. As a dancer I wouldn't feel threatened if all musicians got dance skills, and if I suddenly got music skills. I think that that might actually be fun. I suspect many musicians who are males will probably continue to do mostly music. The females who are dancers will probably prefer to dance, but I bet the females in general will probably be more likely to do some of both (I know I would
). Purely speculation on my part however. As to the tree reorganization, however, I can understand some reason for it, but I'm not liking the idea of adding in Politician and Merchant as much. I have a hard time seeing how that would really work, much less work well.
Tralmek
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:45 pm
#8
I don't understand exactly how you see the skilltrees working with this. Is it something like:
Relaxation Specialist
|
Master Social Worker
|
Performer Image Designer Politician Merchant
| || |
| || |
| || |
Novice Social Worker
I guess I'm just wondering how current skills would integrate into the altered profession sets. If I'm understanding this right, I don't think I'd like it, simply because the professions are very diverse and may not work well with one another. (I mean look at the current Image Designer stuff--there's already a rift in our professions. 
)
) I suppose, however, if the Devs choose not to add more content and skills for each of our individual professions, combining them may be the only palatible option. (Though really, I'd like to see them put some real design work into our development.)
Hobbytla
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:54 pm
#9
I'm all for combining Dancer and Musician in different ways - as an ID I would like to keep that separate, but that's just my personal preference. Icould live with combining ID and performance ifit improved the overall game.
But I'm not sure why Merchant and Politician should be here? As a crafter (yes, I play on multiple server with different professions! :smileyhappy I would be very frustrated to move merchant out of the artisan tree - it seems logical to have it there since artisans are the ones who use it. Skillpoint wise it would putstrain on crafting.Since docs sometimes complainabout needing merchantI could see Merchant be its ownclass like Politician is now - but how does it have anything to do with entertaining? Apart from the Fizzz there is nothing to be crafted in the lower entertaining tree to put on a vendor. And politicians might not need skillpoints anymore but XP is hard to come by, to grind it to get master entertainer might be very disruptive to player cities.
I would be very frustrated to move merchant out of the artisan tree - it seems logical to have it there since artisans are the ones who use it. Skillpoint wise it would putstrain on crafting.Since docs sometimes complainabout needing merchantI could see Merchant be its ownclass like Politician is now - but how does it have anything to do with entertaining? Apart from the Fizzz there is nothing to be crafted in the lower entertaining tree to put on a vendor. And politicians might not need skillpoints anymore but XP is hard to come by, to grind it to get master entertainer might be very disruptive to player cities.But maybe I didn't understand it fully....
Anyway - I think it would be great to expand the entertainer functions in the game and move things around, but I would prefer creating something new for the entertainers and making the class bigger instead of squeezing things that quite happily exist somewhere else atm.
JMHO
Esharra
Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:54 pm
#10
I'm all for combining musician and dancer, and if they want they can take the rest of my skillpoints because if I had it my way I'd never do anything else. As for the healing/buffing bs, make a buffbot profession. Give them a special little place they can call their on so I no longer have to log into my cantina and find them crowding each other out for that coveted spot in the front center of the stage. I no longer care..just as long as I can dance & play..that's what I came here for and it is why I've stuck around all this time. As long as I can dance & play, I'll be here..the rest of it no longer matters.
Kiriah
Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:10 pm
#11
I don't think splitting the actual entertainment portion of our profession apart from our utility (wound/BF healing/Buffing) abilities would be a good idea (assuming that's what would happen in the Elite tiers of those two branches).
I do think making the newbie tree include ID, Performer (Both Dance and Music), Merchant and Pol would be a good idea. It would certainly mean there would be more Master Entertainer's (or whatever you'll call this tree), being as the only reason anyone masters the tree right now is for the Mando, and the side perk of Ceremonial.
My concern about splitting the performance part from the utility part is, well, it rather takes the fun out of gaining the abilities to heal and buff. Unless the intent is that we'd have to be actively participating in the healing itself, in the buffing, the way Doctors do. In that case - YES!
Details aside, I *LOVE* the combination of Merchant with ID and performance professions, though I am confused as to the presence of the Politician line. As a Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, and Master Musician, my skill points are dwindled to a very sad, sad amount. The rest of my points are in Artisan, for the Survey and Business branches. But Politician doesn't have any Skill Point requirements, does it? Putting it into a Skill Point requiring tree seems to once again punish someone for wanting to help create a group of like minded people (the way guild leaders were, originally, with guild halls).
Using up precious Skill Points on a profession that doesn't monetarily benefit anyone, even the person who took that profession up, seems to encourage players to purchase more accounts that they'll only log on once a week to play for maybe 15 minutes - meaning an account created solely for the purpose of sparing main characters wasted SP.
My preferance for a revamped tree would be:
ID, Performance, Performance Enhancement, Merchant.
The next tree for Performance would require all of Performance Enhancement in order to gain Novice Dancer or Novice Musician (basically, the same way they currently require the Ent Healing branch).
I beg your pardon if I misunderstood ya.
EDIT: People posted while I was pondering, darnit!
As a perk for Master Whatever-This-New-Tree-Might-Be-Called I'd have to request that we be able to set up a temporary Profession tent - where we could cut ID time in half, migrate stats, heal BF, perhaps even buff. Perhaps you'd get Merchant Exp depending on how long the tent was up, or how much mind wounding or BF you healed, or how drastic an ID change was. (Can BF be healed in current Merchant Tents, and can people be buffed in them right now?) These tents would be limited to the number of tents you carry on yourself, and to the same placement restrictions currently on Scout camps (not too close to a city, not too close to a lair of any sort, not more than 1 at a time [I think]). They wouldn't be as freeing as a doctor's droid, but they would be an option.
Ok, enough Chirri dreaming...
I do think making the newbie tree include ID, Performer (Both Dance and Music), Merchant and Pol would be a good idea. It would certainly mean there would be more Master Entertainer's (or whatever you'll call this tree), being as the only reason anyone masters the tree right now is for the Mando, and the side perk of Ceremonial.
My concern about splitting the performance part from the utility part is, well, it rather takes the fun out of gaining the abilities to heal and buff. Unless the intent is that we'd have to be actively participating in the healing itself, in the buffing, the way Doctors do. In that case - YES!
Details aside, I *LOVE* the combination of Merchant with ID and performance professions, though I am confused as to the presence of the Politician line. As a Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, and Master Musician, my skill points are dwindled to a very sad, sad amount. The rest of my points are in Artisan, for the Survey and Business branches. But Politician doesn't have any Skill Point requirements, does it? Putting it into a Skill Point requiring tree seems to once again punish someone for wanting to help create a group of like minded people (the way guild leaders were, originally, with guild halls).
Using up precious Skill Points on a profession that doesn't monetarily benefit anyone, even the person who took that profession up, seems to encourage players to purchase more accounts that they'll only log on once a week to play for maybe 15 minutes - meaning an account created solely for the purpose of sparing main characters wasted SP.
My preferance for a revamped tree would be:
ID, Performance, Performance Enhancement, Merchant.
The next tree for Performance would require all of Performance Enhancement in order to gain Novice Dancer or Novice Musician (basically, the same way they currently require the Ent Healing branch).
I beg your pardon if I misunderstood ya.
EDIT: People posted while I was pondering, darnit!
As a perk for Master Whatever-This-New-Tree-Might-Be-Called I'd have to request that we be able to set up a temporary Profession tent - where we could cut ID time in half, migrate stats, heal BF, perhaps even buff. Perhaps you'd get Merchant Exp depending on how long the tent was up, or how much mind wounding or BF you healed, or how drastic an ID change was. (Can BF be healed in current Merchant Tents, and can people be buffed in them right now?) These tents would be limited to the number of tents you carry on yourself, and to the same placement restrictions currently on Scout camps (not too close to a city, not too close to a lair of any sort, not more than 1 at a time [I think]). They wouldn't be as freeing as a doctor's droid, but they would be an option.
Ok, enough Chirri dreaming...
Message Edited by Kiriah on 02-18-2005 06:22 PM
Message Edited by Kiriah on 02-18-2005 06:23 PM
Else-Whira
Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:52 pm
#12
I can't believe more than one member of the dancer/entertainer community came in here and one starred you. That's more than childish. If you disgree with n'Jessi or Pathu just say so. Shove your star ratings up your... *breathes deeply*
Ok, all better.
I definately think I am getting screwed skill point wise with Merchant and Dancer. The things the merchant skill tree give me are NOT worth the cost in terms of skill points. (I am fixing to drop the skill soon).
Dancer gives little or no reward to ME for my own skill point investment. The only things I enjoy from it are esentially coming from the dance knowledge line (although I do love the lyrical2 and the exotic 3/4 dances).
Now assuming that dance and music were melded together how would that free up skill points for a person that was either music or dance? How would that give someone who played ONE of those roles more value for the skill points they already spend? Sure the "pure entertainers" who take both music AND dance would see a break, but not all of us actually enjoy that. I actually liked the idea of getting rid of the entertainer profession altogther and just leaving the elite professions in the game. (in other words lowering the skill point cost of dancer, musician and image designer down to 77 skill points from their current 106, 106 and 92 while moving the current entertainer tree content into up into the main branch. (This would allow a pure entertainer to take master music, ID and dance along with another novice profession.) The benefit to combat hybrid would be that a dancer, ID or musician could take master commando or bounty hunter thus having access to ALL of th non jedi combat professions (something we currently DO NOT!)
Ok, all better.
I definately think I am getting screwed skill point wise with Merchant and Dancer. The things the merchant skill tree give me are NOT worth the cost in terms of skill points. (I am fixing to drop the skill soon).
Dancer gives little or no reward to ME for my own skill point investment. The only things I enjoy from it are esentially coming from the dance knowledge line (although I do love the lyrical2 and the exotic 3/4 dances).
Now assuming that dance and music were melded together how would that free up skill points for a person that was either music or dance? How would that give someone who played ONE of those roles more value for the skill points they already spend? Sure the "pure entertainers" who take both music AND dance would see a break, but not all of us actually enjoy that. I actually liked the idea of getting rid of the entertainer profession altogther and just leaving the elite professions in the game. (in other words lowering the skill point cost of dancer, musician and image designer down to 77 skill points from their current 106, 106 and 92 while moving the current entertainer tree content into up into the main branch. (This would allow a pure entertainer to take master music, ID and dance along with another novice profession.) The benefit to combat hybrid would be that a dancer, ID or musician could take master commando or bounty hunter thus having access to ALL of th non jedi combat professions (something we currently DO NOT!)
Panthu
Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:05 pm
#13
Else-Whira wrote:
I can't believe more than one member of the dancer/entertainer community came in here and one starred you. That's more than childish. If you disgree with n'Jessi or Pathu just say so. Shove your star ratings up your... *breathes deeply*
Pfft, I knew I was going to get some freak outs when I posted it. 
Thanks for trying to fix mine and Jessi's stars though! ... and yes, it's not totally out of the blue, I have a reason for asking. I said something about it in the Corr/Glowie forum in response to something else that is going on and I wanted to see what others thought... just Glowie curiosity, Deila will say if anything is really happening so no one panic!
Thanks for trying to fix mine and Jessi's stars though! ... and yes, it's not totally out of the blue, I have a reason for asking. I said something about it in the Corr/Glowie forum in response to something else that is going on and I wanted to see what others thought... just Glowie curiosity, Deila will say if anything is really happening so no one panic!
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