Dancer Archive
Thread: Message to the Devs and to every-freaking-one else
Page 1 of 2
DarkY0da
Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:15 pm
#1
Else-Whira wrote:
I disagree. This is very much a social profession. It has been the attempts to change it into something less than social that have caused the major problems the social aspects have been dealing with.
Here just a few quick things that can enhance the social content for us;
- Entertainer specific emotes and animations granted in the skill trees. (We currently have dance and music animations along with the sing and rap chat styles.)
- GCW information or NPC quest information that can be given to entertainers for them to sell or give to player characters. (A simple term like system or entertainer specific chat channel would do wonders for that.)
- Give better skill bonuses for large groups of entertainers than solitary entertainers.
- Remove the clutter from some of the NPC cantinas and create a specific area for entertainers to perform (a stage or dance floor ala player city cantinas).
- Prohibit AFK skill gain/use via ToS and CSR intervention.
What about these professions makes them any more social then other professions in a online game based in the interdependencies and interactions of what 38 professions and hundreds of thousands of people ?
All of those enhancments you mention fall under...
"They can how ever add to and improve my Star Wars professions in this GAME. That I play to play a Star Wars Game. They can make the game overall more interactive. This by extension makes it more “Social”. They can subtly add "downtime" which gives people the opportunity for spontaneous "social" "game play" to happen."
There is no content that the Devs can add to a "Social profession". As there is no way for them to honestly make people more social.
Kealles
Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:19 pm
#2
I believe the point DarkY0da's trying to make is that all professions are social professions. The very nature of an MMO is that of a social one. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe I talk more when I'm out hunting with a group than I do whileperforming. In a performance, I'm focused on putting on a show, and to be truthful, I avoid talking in spatial all together when using an instrument other than the Mandoviol, Nalargon, or Ommni Box. It just seems odd to me totalk with an instrument in my mouth.
The developers need to pay more attention to ways of improving these professions' gameplay over ways of getting people to interact with us. Give us more stimulating and entertaininggameplay (for us and the audience), and the second will come naturally.
I'm eagerly waiting to see what's to be revealed in the near future... I hope it doesn't disappoint.
Xyrdre
Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:48 pm
#3
picklesSW wrote:
Warryyr wrote:
Mmmm...chocolate orgasm....
Here's to a truly incredible and mind blowing addition to our content in this game! *hoists pint glass*
The wookiee has been drinkin too much booze again, I think. Fallen off the wagon. Are you suffering delusions again?
For the love of all that's holy, what in the history of this development team and game leads you to the insane belief that they even understand the players of these professions, much less intend to implement a good system to support them?
An intervention is in order. Warryyr has completely lost his mind.
Maybe that's a Wookiee form of a prayer? 
Part of what I'm trying to impress behind the scenes is just that. That 'social' profession may mean very different things, depending on what preconceived notions are present. Anyone can be sociable, in any profession, in any role, in the game... it's not just that simple.
(I'm not going to talk here about bug fixes, performance enhancement tools, etc. Those things I'm trying hardto get us too - but for this discussion, I'm focusing here on gameplay and what 'social profession' should mean, in my opinion)
What distinguishes things, in my mind, is that the 'social playstyle' type of player will be social while they play the game, and that there are different ways that the social player wants to approach meeting and surpassing challenges than found in combat/crafting,but that the socialization is not the game itself. Entertainer players, by and large, based on feedback for a very long time, seem to really want to have real game challenges, ties to persistent-world functions like the economy and loot, etc., that are not dependent on killing or selling, but rather through these other outlets that have been suggested/offered by the 'alternative' types of professions in SWG that we don't see in other games.
In short... the 'social' game player wants to have a game to play, that supports themhaving intellectual, psychological, or interpersonal means of overcoming challenges... not that the socialization itself is enough of a goal for satisfying game experiences. The latter really could be seen as a 'graphical chatroom', and is something that has been railed against as a game concept for us by this community for a long time. Players who do like to be purely sociable (hanging out with friends, chatting, etc.)lose nothing if there are real gameplay options. Everyone else loses if there is nothing to do but chat.
What forms could that gameplay take, that supports social drives, styles, motivations, goals, and methods? And do we look at it from the narrower view that what we mean by 'social' is purely in player-to-player direct interaction, or is it enough to say that alternatives to killing/selling is really more along the lines of the direction to take, which can include under its umbrella of influence interpersonal dynamics, as well as problem solving, puzzles, etc.?
- On the one hand, cantina mini-games that Panthu has been pushing for us for so long are one great thing that could add not only content for us and others, but in such a way that bridges playstyle gaps. That one seems like an obvious Good Thing™. But what about other types of models, searching for an analogue to the varying combat models of gameplay dynamics, but in such a way that fits more with a way of playing that the 'social player' most identifies with?
- I've proposed in the past a variety of things, from TheatreQuest mechanics revisions to use for porting to a type of non-killing, non-selling form of PvE game (the inevitable 'next step' that I haven't formally written up yet). I've proposed my Fame system concept, for ongoing 'stuff to do' along similar lines. And now I've been working on the beginnings of how that could play into group dynamics, where different entertainer professions might play particular roles in meeting group challenges in missions or gameplay. And a way to incorporate allof those elements into one rounded system, if desirable.Combined, those show one way that there could be stuff to do that utilizes our entertainer models for challenges and involvement.
- Our 'classic' entertainer game, of vying for tips through our wit, charm, and performance skill - of preparing shows and looking to be hired for player events - even down to selling mind buffs (before automation took players largely out of that market) are really a form of PvP game. That game is played out intellectually and psychologically, rather than "physically" (via avatar combat).
- The very popular ideas of having a spy/informant type of role in the GCW plays right into all of this as well. There could be a whole host of ways that problem solving, interpersonal dynamics and riddles/puzzles could add real gameplay, while still being a part of the bigger picture of the GCW and what's going on in our SWG universe here.
The above are just ideas... starting places for design ideas that could be grabbed and run with, or used as inspiration for sparks of genius. The point is... there are ways that there could be fun and satisfying gameplay that work with the type of approaches that the 'social' player is more aligned with.
I'll leave thoughts for now at that. But I did want to do two things here. One was to give a little insight into the larger picture of where I'm pushing for reform and improvement in the social playstyle in SWG, but also to hopefully stir some thought and conversation on what other types of real gameplay could be devised that works in the 'social' model of "something other than killing or selling".
In my mind, what the social playstyle has been really missing is a real game to play with our game - and as players, we deserve that.
Panthu
Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:00 pm
#4
Xyrdre wrote:
In my mind, what the social playstyle has been really missing is a real game to play with our game - and as players, we deserve that.
*nods* Yep! That's what we've been needing! Here's something I just posted else where on this:
***
Someone used to say “If you play a game of cards with your friends, are you really there to play cards, or are the cards just an excuse to get together?”
Of course, the answer is that the cards are just an excuse to see or make friends… to be social. However, would the friendly exchanges and bonding experiences you have with others go on with out the cards and the game being there? No, probably not. That’s why people don’t usually come together to sit in an empty room and just chat with absolutely no purpose for the gathering, subject to talk about, or common activity like a game to play.
Games are social enablers, and they always have been. That same person also said about the online experience “These online games are social experiences and therefore they're exactly like 99 percent of all the other games you played as a child. We're going back to the roots of gaming.” Wow, that guy got it!
People are attracted to online games not just because they love video games (which many of us do), but also because they are Social enablers. They allow us to compete against each other, work together for a common goal, or do something as simple as trade. That’s the basis of every game that any school child in the world plays to learn how to interact with other people and society. Humans are social creatures, we are most happy when we are interacting with the world through others. It gives a sense of self and reaffirms your place in the world. We crave it.
Games help that happen. Games allow social behavior to prosper (and make us happier mammals 
). Hopefully, gaming is a positive experience for everyone playing or working on SWG.
Entertainer Professions give an outlet to those of us who have all of those same needs to be Social that Combat or Crafting players do (maybe more, lol), but what we have lacked so far are the actual Games that enable that exchange. Social gaming can not be looked at as something that should be stripped of all traditional Game Elements, you take away all of the enablers for socialization that way!
What we have lacked as Entertainers thus far is a Game of our Own. We would know what to do with it. Plenty of people would be interested in an SWG Entertainer flavored game or series of mini-games. We just need to be allowed the enablers, we’ll make the Social happen on our own… and we’ll be great at it!
kirah_ashlin
Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:49 pm
#5
Let's get back to that chocolate orgasm thing . . . make mine chocolate mousse, please. 
Drygo
Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:12 pm
#6
My perfect style of being a dancer is in total agreement with DarkYoda. I became a dancer for the performing. I like the way my avatar looks, I like putting things together, I like performing in front of audience. That's extremely fun for me. Being social can certainly be done with any profession. When it happens in guildchat, solo groups, whatever, it has nothing to do with being an entertainer. But, it's obviously there.
However, I think it's important to understand that the viewpoint in this thread, which I completely agree with for myself, is not necessarily the vision of every dancer. I know that in the past I have gotten into arguments with others in this forum because it appeared to me that someone was espousing a view of Dancer, and because I didn't fit into that particular view, I wasn't as good a dancer. I think for some people (and I can list some in my head just writing this post), entertaining is very much a social profession. They did begin dancing to chat and flirt and be social. The truth is, I think the entertainer professions are truly some of the most versatile professions in this game. I mean, what does a combatant do? He goes out and fights. Great. What does an entertainer do? He/she buffs, performs, and socializes, among other things, as part of the profession. I think this explains how everyone's motivations for choosing a particular profession are different. I mean, if you look at all of the other profession boards, you don't have near the amount of debates about what they are supposed to be. A pistoleer is a pistoleer is a pistoleer. A dancer is a social butterfly, a performer, or a support character, or any combination of the three and anything else you can think of.
So, while, yes, I would absolutely love to see more content directed at the actual performance aspect of being entertainer, I think it's important that we keep in mind that we should try to add "social content" as well. After all, just like an entertainer can avoid playing mini games if they choose, those who want the mini games can avoid the social content if they want to. But, I think expanding on all of these options is what can make our professions so great.
PoetDancer
Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:11 pm
#7
I'd have to disagree.I believe weare a social profession.
That being said, I agree with everything that Oh-Orb has said.
I don't go to the cantina to socialize. I have chat channels for that. And if that is the extent of our profession, then it is true that this profession really serves no purpose. Many who run entertainers unattended, or who see no problem with getting the mechanics in an unattended way have used this definition with great results in justifying to everyone why we are badly designed, and why they should be granted the license to automate our class. Their reasoning is that they don'twant or needany more or lesschat then they have,and feel fully justified in seperatingthe "chatroom" from the mechanical aspect.
But we are not a chatroom. Chat goes on in the cantina, but it doesn't have to. Everything that can be done in this profession can be done using Basic 1 with no flourishes, no chat, and no effort to do anything else whatsoever. And if a patronloves sittingthrough a dancer shuffling back and forth for the required time, then this class is altogether rather simple, yes?
But nobody likes to sit through that boring and predictableroutine. And more than likely, the patron is crafting or watching the BF metre tick down veeeeeeery sloooooowly. That's tourture, but what else can the player do but sit and amuse themselves?
Thatiswhy we have these effects, these different dances, these flourishes, and all these other tools...chat being only one tool to make things better to see than the dancer dancing Basic 1. Now I'm not saying these tools are not getting to be "old hat," and I'm not saying we don't need more of them. But anything is better than watching a dancer shuffle around in Basic 1. Scratch that. Right now, anything is better than watching a dancer do the Exotics, since that's basically all we see frommany dancersthese days. I suggest that the best dance in this game is not the highest level dance. Its the dance that keeps a patron's eye off the Ctrl-C screen, and on YOU.
Because if a cantina performer can be so darn fun to watch during that time a patron sits, then the BF healing speed, the buff speed, and the wound healing speed are moot. The patron's thoughts are not about his needs and his boring situation, but on the dancer, and what the dancer is doing.
Buffbots don't play this way, however. Unattendees don't play this way. And I'd venture to say most dancers who think the cantina is a place to socialize and chat don't play this way either. Because they don't dance to take a patron's mind off the clock. They dance, chat, and create a dull, albeit availableperformancein order to keep the patron's mind and eyes very much on the clock in order to inform them when their admittedly boring performance is over. No wonder patrons by in large can see no redeeming qualities in the profession, and see no reason to promote live play. Everyone is so intent it seems on reducing the time the patron needs to be there that we forgot somewhere that we should be giving them more of a reason to stay.
I'm not there to chat with friends. When I go in the cantina, I'm not there for Tea and Bofa treats. I'm there to work, and get paid for my work. And that means using whatever tool I can useto get my patron off of his or herCtrl-C screen, off his or herchat tab, and off his or herindicators.
Chat doesn't do that alone, unless its in spatial (and that's becoming increasingly difficult as of late).
But I maintain that this is still "social play." We have to use our judgement, our senses, and our creativity to draw attention away from the things we compete against in a patron's mind using techniques in stagecraft, choreography, and poetics; techniques of interpersonal communication by a different means than mere dialecticalone.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-25-2005 09:24 PM
Doriana
Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:29 pm
#8
I just think people have no idea exactly what the phrase "social profession" means.
I've actually been thinking about this lately, weird..
I think when WE think of "social profession" we think of it as simply a foundation to encourage socialization. Pretty much like Panthu described, and that while we aren't necessarily talking ourselves we facilitate other people to socialize with our game mechanics. The "social" part referring just to the fact that it's people and service oriented versus blowing-crap-up oriented.
I think when non-entertainers think of "social profession" they think like what Esharra said. A bunch of giggly, annoying teenage girls standing around the bathroom gossiping.
I don't want to be the latter, yuck. But I do want to use performing as a basis for the former.
/shrug, I don't know how to make people adjust their mental definition of social profession though.
I've actually been thinking about this lately, weird..
I think when WE think of "social profession" we think of it as simply a foundation to encourage socialization. Pretty much like Panthu described, and that while we aren't necessarily talking ourselves we facilitate other people to socialize with our game mechanics. The "social" part referring just to the fact that it's people and service oriented versus blowing-crap-up oriented.
I think when non-entertainers think of "social profession" they think like what Esharra said. A bunch of giggly, annoying teenage girls standing around the bathroom gossiping.
I don't want to be the latter, yuck. But I do want to use performing as a basis for the former.
/shrug, I don't know how to make people adjust their mental definition of social profession though.
DarkY0da
Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:20 am
#9
I just want to get this out into the open here and now...
WE ARE NOT SOCIAL PROFESSIONS!!!!
I can be social doing ANYTHING in this game. Playing ANY profession. Just because someone picks up Novice Ent doesn't give them some new game play options or force them into being nothing more then a glorified chat room.
I have 3 Star Wars based Professions. I am social when I play SWG as it is a MMORPG and is based around interacting with other players.
There is NOTHING the devs can add to a "Social" profession that makes it more "social". They can how ever add to and improve my Star Wars professions in this GAME. That I play to play a Star Wars Game.
They can make the game overall more interactive. This by extension makes it more “Social”. They can subtly add "downtime" which gives people the opportunity for spontaneous "social" "game play" to happen.
This so called stuff that Tyrant says is coming next week for us.
It had better be freakin good. It had better be freakin chocolate orgasm good™. And it had better NOT fall under the delusion of these being "Social" professions.
(Yeah I'm not in the best freakin mood. And this game is making me just a tad freakin angry right now...)
WE ARE NOT SOCIAL PROFESSIONS!!!!
I can be social doing ANYTHING in this game. Playing ANY profession. Just because someone picks up Novice Ent doesn't give them some new game play options or force them into being nothing more then a glorified chat room.
I have 3 Star Wars based Professions. I am social when I play SWG as it is a MMORPG and is based around interacting with other players.
There is NOTHING the devs can add to a "Social" profession that makes it more "social". They can how ever add to and improve my Star Wars professions in this GAME. That I play to play a Star Wars Game.
They can make the game overall more interactive. This by extension makes it more “Social”. They can subtly add "downtime" which gives people the opportunity for spontaneous "social" "game play" to happen.
This so called stuff that Tyrant says is coming next week for us.
It had better be freakin good. It had better be freakin chocolate orgasm good™. And it had better NOT fall under the delusion of these being "Social" professions.
(Yeah I'm not in the best freakin mood. And this game is making me just a tad freakin angry right now...)
Message Edited by DarkY0da on 02-25-2005 03:44 PM
Ravanne_Esi
Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:29 am
#10
DarkY0da wrote:
It had better be freakin chocolate orgasm good.
/shiver
Warryyr
Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:29 am
#11
Mmmm...chocolate orgasm....
Here's to a truly incredible and mind blowing addition to our content in this game! *hoists pint glass*
DarkY0da
Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:31 am
#12
And yes I am well aware that I WAY over used the word freaking... it's just the only one that kept coming to mind...
picklesSW
Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:34 am
#13
Warryyr wrote:Mmmm...chocolate orgasm....Here's to a truly incredible and mind blowing addition to our content in this game! *hoists pint glass*
The wookiee has been drinkin too much booze again, I think. Fallen off the wagon. Are you suffering delusions again?
For the love of all that's holy, what in the history of this development team and game leads you to the insane belief that they even understand the players of these professions, much less intend to implement a good system to support them?
An intervention is in order. Warryyr has completely lost his mind.
Message Edited by picklesSW on 02-25-2005 03:34 PM
Page 1 of 2