Dancer Archive
Thread: Helping hands.. or lack there of.
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Saera
Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:04 am
#1
Ok I'm putting on my flame retardent outfit here in preperation, I'm sure I'll need it....but someone really has to say something. And before I begin, yes I am a master dancer.. no I am not a buffbot, and yes I am frustrated too. With that said, let the flames roll in.
Entertaining, whether it be dancer or musician is a profession for the people. Yes we get crapped on a lot, it happens..most of us have gotten used to this at some point or another and have learned to deal with it. So in retrospect, I want to know when the "entertainers" decided it was ok to crap on other people?
The last two times I've read this board I've seen posts from people asking for help. Yes they were asking about macros, so what? That doesn't mean you need to jump the gun and assume or judge that they are the evilness known as buffbot. I am a master dancer, I had to ask about a buff macro..because I had no idea how it worked. When I was first a master dancer over a year ago they didn't even exist. Does that make me evil, because I needed some help? No, I dont' think so. Yet people come here for OUR help and the first thing that they get is people jumping down their throats and not only flameing them..but rediculing them and making the entire community of this board look really bad.
Now I know we are bitter, I AM bitter about what has happened to our profession, I am disgusted when I walk into cantinas and see the buffbots and afk entertainers in there. I too long for the "good old" days before hologrinding ruined us. I personally gave up dancing, a profession I am so very passionate about because I couldn't handle the crap that was going on in the cantinas in the name of being a jedi. But after time, I couldn't resist and just recently remastered it.
Yes there are still afk people, yes there are buff bots.. yes it still kind of sucks, but I live with it. Bitter or not, my love of the profession now keeps me going, if it didn't I'd not be here. We are the lifeblood that keeps our profession alive and if we can't support eachotherthen we are as good as dead. It is wrong to assume that everyone is out to be an evil buff bot. Some genuine entertainers could stumble in here needing our helpand really wonder if this is what they want to do. The impressions from this community are really not that welcoming as of late.
The game community as a whole finds us a necessary evil, we are often overlooked and or taken advantage of. We need to embrace the community, not fight with them. We need the community on our side, and arguing with people who need help, harassing them and accusing them when you have no proof... it's not going to endear us to them. You are just proving them right.
Saera Aistee
Master Dancer
Master Teras Kasi
Oqua
Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:29 am
#2
Honestly, I thought the same thing for a split second...but then I remembered what happens every day in that thread stickied up there *points to the afk/bot rant thread*.
Its really hard for "me" to feel generous and magnanimous when I see many coming and saying we basically are nothing in the eyes of the rest of the "gamers" in the galaxy.
I mean, lets face it....history lately has been on the side of the entertainers who were a little upset in that other thread. Most people nowadays only are leveling up an entertainer now for one reason and one reason only.
Logically speaking, if they were at the keys honing their craft during their experience gaining process I am sure at least a couple of times they saw a master at the keys throughout thier cantina stay, right? I know thats how I picked up entertainer/dance/music facts, from macro tips to drift control all the way to group/cantina etiquette. So either a few things happened...they were almost entirely afk when leveling up (which is something I never ever did...either time I have done my stuffies with my little ladies) and/or they have only leveled up for one reason and one reason only.
Now, I am not condoning rudeness...heavens no. I don't think there is any reason for a person to be rude ever (one can get a very strong message of displeaser across without ever being rude). But...I do take everything said and done with a grain of salt. Most of the people who spoke out probably looked at everything that the poster "said" (and didn't say) and came to the conclusion that was a very logical one.
The fact that one poster even alluded to a very poorly veiled "threat" about becoming a buffbot now really is telling as well.
I know when I started posting some of my comments were construed as argumentative and "crappy" (or me being new to the forums for the most part I thought comments made towards my post were such), but that was far from my thoughts in making said comments (and from the people responding to me; pm's to the people involved quickly cleared that up). Lets remember that this medium stinks for communication sometimes. 
Anyways...just food for thought. Again, not advocating rudeness on anyone's part ever in any forum/thread/exchange (either in game or out), but also asking to walk a mile in the entertainer shoes before one gets too upset (meaning the new entertainers coming in). Let's face it, if they have been out there atk flourishing away, I don't think they would be asking...and I don't think they would get too upset with a cool response at first from some of the entertainers that have been raked through the coals in the past year because of the afk/bot scourge.
***side note*** as to the macro help...I would have helped if I could, but I am le suq at macros. The only one I know is /flo 1; pause 5; flo 2; pause 5; etc.etc....I just figured that most who come up through the ranks get that one. Its the one I give my friends who come and dance with me in the cantinas. *warm smile*.
Message Edited by Oqua on 09-25-2004 07:34 AM
lycanthropy
Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:32 am
#3
i think this board will be glad to help anyone, but alot of times the shear mention of people asking for help with a scheme to run their dancer while they are afk just sparks alot of angst. its well known that the afk vs. atk threads are a giant mess between the two, but it would be the same with any profession board, there is always something that is not wise to bring up, for us its afk buff bots.
and yes there was a blunt post with an individual who was asking for help running a buff bot.
therealzizz
Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:25 am
#4
I am going to step up and say I completely agree with you. We can not continue to bash the non-entertaining community., or the future entertaining community. What I dont understand is when macros themselves became so evil. I personally came to this board for every single macro I have ever used. I remember when dancers were more than happy to share thier macros for buffing and performing. This is my first online game ever, and if it wasnt for these forums I would not of had a clue as to what to do. These boards have gone from people helping each other to "GET A ROPE!!" Yes, there are posts that intentionally bait . But why take the bait? Ignore them ..is it that hard? Consider the source and let it go.
Yes, I dont like buffbots either. Im not going to let them ruin my game though. Every profession in this game has to deal with something they dont like. You can either keep harping on it and let it ruin your fun, or you can just learn what the best way to work around it is. The constant complaints of how someone else is destroying your profession are overshadowing
the real problems.(new content, broken dances, etc..)
So, thank you Saera, for stepping up first and stating what needed to be said. I see new players constantly and its time we
show them the hospitality that was shown to us when we first started.
zizz
lycanthropy
Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:33 am
#5
i use macros too, alot of them lol, macros for light effects, for dancing, for blurting out strange song lyrics, all this i do ATK though. other wise my fingers would be destroyed by having to press those flourish buttons constantly!
SianGali
Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:15 am
#6
therealzizz wrote:
I am going to step up and say I completely agree with you. We can not continue to bash the non-entertaining community., or the future entertaining community. What I dont understand is when macros themselves became so evil. I personally came to this board for every single macro I have ever used. I remember when dancers were more than happy to share thier macros for buffing and performing. This is my first online game ever, and if it wasnt for these forums I would not of had a clue as to what to do. These boards have gone from people helping each other to "GET A ROPE!!" Yes, there are posts that intentionally bait . But why take the bait? Ignore them ..is it that hard? Consider the source and let it go.
Yes, I dont like buffbots either. Im not going to let them ruin my game though. Every profession in this game has to deal with something they dont like. You can either keep harping on it and let it ruin your fun, or you can just learn what the best way to work around it is. The constant complaints of how someone else is destroying your profession are overshadowing
the real problems.(new content, broken dances, etc..)
So, thank you Saera, for stepping up first and stating what needed to be said. I see new players constantly and its time we
show them the hospitality that was shown to us when we first started.
zizz
/agree I rarely read the dancerboards anymore, too much anger.I have a place I go every day to listen to people bicker whereI try to bring peace. It's called work. 
picklesSW
Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:08 am
#7
In game I am completely tolerant of everyone, including buffbots. Here on the forums, however, is where we either make a difference or not to help the future of our profession. When people come onto the forum asking for macros or in any other way seeking assistance for their AFK entertainers, buffbots or alt-bots, I will stand firm. I will not assist. If a developer comes over here and sees us being friendly with bots and helping them out, they may think we don't mind them after all.
Sorry, but I won't let that happen.
Sorry, but I won't let that happen.
Aleyo
Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:51 am
#8
therealzizz wrote:What I dont understand is when macros themselves became so evil. I personally came to this board for every single macro I have ever used. I remember when dancers were more than happy to share thier macros for buffing and performing. This is my first online game ever, and if it wasnt for these forums I would not of had a clue as to what to do. These boards have gone from people helping each other to "GET A ROPE!!"
I can venture a guess on how this happened.
I'll use an analogy.
Jimmy invented the gun. Wow, what a great invention, it let him kill his dinner so much more easily! He wanted to share this great gift, and word spread, so when anyone came to ask for a gun, he'd make one and hand it to them. And the people were killing their dinners more easily as well.
Then one day, he handed the gun to someone, and that person shot him in the foot. Ow! That wasn't very nice, and not great thanks for helping the guy out. But Jimmy decided maybe this one person was just weird, and continued to hand out guns after a short visit to the hospital.
Then as the days passed, more and more people would shoot him in the foot when he gave them a gun. Jimmy was coming into more and more pain for trying to help people out. He then became very suspicious of people coming to ask for a gun, since he thought the first thing they would do would be to shoot him in the foot. But even when he was very careful about whom he gave a gun to, he still got shot. Finally, he got tired of this gun business, and when someone would come asking for a gun, he'd shoot them in the foot instead.
After seeing people use the macros we created to help to turn around and create buffbots so often, we got suspicious. Some of us shoot the people looking for these macros in the foot. It kind of sucks.
Panthu
Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:36 pm
#9
Kitachiira wrote:
The original poster is right. There is way too much hate on this board. I understand the anger entertainers have with regards to bots. I share that sentiment. However I don't post here much anymore either because ofall the negativity.It gets depressing to see the arguing with neither side really willing to see the others point of view or so it seems anyway. I know a few other people who have stopped posting here for the same.
I know that's why the afk/bot thread was made but I've only read the first page or 2 and won't read anymore. I really don't see the point. It's just the same old arguments with hardly anyone agreeing.
Well, ok, maybe you are sort of missing the point of the Sticky still. If you are so upset by the "same old arguments" that it is keeping you away from the forum, you shouldn't go read that thread. The whole point of making it its own "Focus Thread" was so it could be skipped by people who didn't want to read it anymore.
You don't like the fight over it, stay out of that thread. Don't read it, don't post in it, just ignore it and carry on in other threads.
***
As to this post topic. Yes, I always prefer us to be nice. I was actually supportive of second account Private Support Dancer chars in the thread that brought this on. Not that it mattered, dude didn't even seem to read it. *shrug* I don't like that so many people feel the need to have a Dancer on their second account, but I think that just screams that we need help as an Active Live Main Prof.
On the other hand, "peer pressure" is supposed to be used to discourage AFK Entertaining (or anything else Entertainers don't like other Entertainers doing, spam, botting, dating services, whatever). I've read it and heard it straight from the Devs. I personally do not like this. I don't like counting on this. I don't like the snobbinessthat I think it breeds. Most importantly I think it is a blowoff and shows a lack of interest in finding real design solutions that other non-Social Profs would be offered.
I also think it doesn't work when the people who are doing/wanting/needing these things do not care a fig about being part of the Ent Community and we don't merge with the Communities they are in, so we have no means to impose this type of pressure.
It worked for me when I was new. I most likely would have AFK Leveled my first time up at least sometimes because it does make more sense for xp gain. It is encouraged by the game. I started reading the boards and talking to other Dancers in game though and heard their complaints about it. Even though it was still too early in my Dancing Career to really get what they were saying, the fact that it was so looked down upon by the people I wanted to be playing with made me decide not to do it.
That was a long time ago though.
***
Anyway, yeah. Try to be nice. I flinch when I read that someone wants to skip us and "go make coffee" while they are doing it, it just makes us look silly and shows a real lack of respect for our role in the game, but I do understand what is leading people to do this and I hope that those issues will be resolved at some point and all of us will be improved for it. 
Until then, everybody just try to be as nice as you can be and educate the public on Dancer issues as sweetly as you can stomach. 
If you have to freak out and snub someone, just don't break any forum rules and really try to weigh out in your mind before you post it if it will help your cause in the end or just further add to the frustrations on both sides of the issue. That's all any of us can do if we choose to use the "peer pressure" method. I'd suggest using it sparingly, but, you know, you're all grown enough to be playing the game so it's not like I can really make you do anything. 
PoetDancer
Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:43 pm
#10
These boards have been worse. MUCH worse. I recall about the end of February, we would post about something like, "We need to get registration fixed," and have trolls come in here and say, "who cares? LOL. U R all retards 4 not nowing how 2 macro! LOL." I kid you not when I told you we could talk about NOTHING on these boards without some troll trying to score brownie points by showing how bad we had it. And when we would explain to them our reasons for wanting things fixed or enhanced, they'd say, "who cares? I don't care about fixing bugs or new content. Why offer a distraction from giving out buffs and fixing the problems of important players like creature handlers? The holocron says I have every right to AFK, and frankly, if you don't AFK you are a bad performer for not letting real players heal and buff."
And frankly, whenever the developers came in here to talk about entertainment subjects, it was always to further legitimize unattendedness. It was almost like they gave all the disrepectful trolls the tacit ascent to whatever garbage they wanted to put forth.
Go back to between January and March to see those threads. Also, go back and see how very few of us there are. Go back and see all the final threads of players that simply couldn't take the systematic disrespect.
I never, EVER want to go back to those days, when morale was at an all time low. We have it so much better now than we had it half a year ago. The only way we ever got out of it was to stand up to the trolls and assert our right to maintain a legitimate place in the game and on these boards. The Redtags never helped us. They only told us how we needed to accept unattended lot mules as players like us. Not the moderators. One moderator in particular was instrumental in delegitimizing the early actions of CSRs to mitigate AFK play:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dancer&message.id=7563&highlight=afk#M7563
And you know what? Eventually, the developers came to the conclusion that we had a point. But we were able to do so ONLY because we simply did not lie down and accept the fact that an unattended lot mule had the same value as an actual player. SOE said, unequivacally, that non-players were players. This gave every troll the legitimacy to say to us, "screw u! I AFK, and the Developers say I have equal standing." We told them that if the developers take this stance, then the developersare wrong. PERIOD.
We became hard nosed, because we had to be. Though I do admit, sometimes we take a hard nosed stance when it isn't warranted.
So my advice is to just leave well enough alone. If you do not want to give macro help, don't do it. In fact, I urge you not to. Let them go to the $15.95 pay-to-win sites, or even do a quick searchto get that info. Because I do know one thing about macros. You do not need them to play. But you DO need them to unattend and mimic play.
And by the same token, follow Saera's advice as well. Don't harass other macro seekers just because they are asking for macro advice. You'll only give them sympathy. Just ignore it, and it will go away on its own.
Tandava
Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:14 pm
#11
*claps for Sirii*
I do not condone laziness and stupidity. If they can read the boards that say how to write a post they can read the faq and sticky threads. There are also faqs on the entertainer forums specifically about buffing macros. People jumping to the defense of others who don't specifically say they are here for buffbots? I'm not that generous. They need to say they are here not for buffbots. I typically don't respond at all with anything regarding buffing but two of the posts here recently including chunky peanutbutter that was defended seemed logically setup for only the purpose of buffing. And I explain that in my response. Was I rude and use names? No but I was suspicious and my only action was to point him to the FAQ sticky thread on AFK macroing which he should read at least a few posts of.
I'm not a lowest common denominator person.
People coming here for genuine help that seem to respect a dancer always in my experience actually take a line of type to introduce themselves as a human being playing with us. They dont' have to lull us with poetry or niceness but theyshould say "hey, I'm new and I wanted to learn how to buff people now that I'm a dancer on X server and trying to help." Whether its for macros or clothes or directions. When they come for grinding most don't even think of us as people, the rare few who do also introduce themselves in a human manner.
Its good not to be vitriolic, but not for them, for ourselves.Its also good to be a bit protective about our profession finally because many of us have earned it and selling it short to people who don't acknowledge us even here as people isn't worth the etiquette. When I go on to another profession board I make darned sure to be polite about any requests. People can be polite and undemanding when they come here too.
Dreamland
Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:11 am
#12
I like to think the community is very helpful, but were not stupid either. Its usualy pretty easy to tell when someone is asking about making a buffbot. I've read the posts in question, and one of the posters obviously cared little about live entertaining when he said he'dlike to buff up his main while he goes and gets a coffee,and even threatened that he should start buffboting public cantinas as a result of people not helping him. The other, well it was a tossup as to whether it was about buffboting but unfortunately it was likely. I think you'll see that even though people expressed concern in that case they still answered the posters question. I have no problem giving someone a simple 3 minute buff macro that is comprised of about 3 lines grand total. Your never going to see anyone handing out full blown buffbot macros here, and they do well then i'd advocate they should be banned from the forums for doing so.
It is very sad that its come down to the point where you have to examine someones motives to try and discern whether buffbotting is their intent. You know what though it has, and many of the posters here are flat out entertainer activists.They have become them after playing for as long as a year in some cases out of the sheer love of this profession clinging to whatever meager hope there is it may turn around. Andinmost cases yes they have formed some strongopinions on what they think isright and wrong. So I for one am glad that they are out there to jump down the would bebuffbots throats. Because if they weren't we'd be back at square one with the devs thinking everythings working as intended.
I've seen people come in here with legitimate questions as well, not too long ago a woman came in asking how to buff at all because she just wasn't getting it, and she was helped out in a courteous manner by posters as well as the forum corespondant.
Drygo
Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:26 am
#13
Thank you Saera for making this post. I know I've interjected in a few other threads where people have automatically gone on the attack. I hate seeing that, I really, really do. Whether it has to do with macro help, or making an analogy where the word "prostitute" is used and reading comprehension skills are lacking regarding what the original poster truly meant. Whatever the case. I don't like jumping to assumptions. And, I don't like to see some newbie come on here with under 50 posts and then get attacked for what they have to say or ask.
If you think someone wants to be a buffbot, then simply don't respond. If you're unsure what someone means when they use a term that you find offensive, then ask for clarification.
On the other hand, if it is clear that someone wants to be a bot, or someone is intentionally degrading dancers, then by all means, flame away and flame harshly. I certainly do. But, please, try not to be so hyper defensive because of our past experiences. Every new person in here deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. And, even if I end up being wrong in the end, even if this "innocent" ends up making a buffbot, then I would still rather err on the side of welcoming a new person than driving future leaders of our community away because of a negative response that they were completely not expecting.
Post 1 asks for macro help. I'll either ignore, help, or ask for clarification on intentions. If, in post 2 this person clarifies that they are making a bot, then I will flame. But, not before then.
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