Dancer Archive
Thread: Kind of a goofy idea about Holodisk recordings
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Xyrdre
Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:54 pm
#1
So I was looking over the announcement about the Loot Revamp, and it gave me an idea that I hadn't seen presented yet. Not really with this spin on it, in any case.
Now, I'm well aware that entertainer buffing/healing may well be on the outs at this point. Still, I thought... I had this idea, why not pitch it as something that could be thrown into the mix, either as a carryover for the time, or possibly as a point to be considered later in redesigning the entertainer professions. Can't hurt... and if it's just goofy and won't work, so be it.
We've been discussing the idea of Holodisk recordings for entertainer buffs and / or healing for some time now. Our ideas along these lines have always been from the standpoint of assuming the disk objects themselves would be crafted. But...
What if they were loot?
A couple of the concept descriptions in the Loot announcement had me thinking...
Perishable / Disposable Loot: Making loot perishable (items that last for a limited amount of time) or disposable (one use items) will do two things. First, it will add more scope and dimension to the loot mini-game without impacting inventory management. The goal is to add more loot to the game without adding additional inventory management burden onto the player. By adding more perishable and disposable items, more loot can be added to the game without adding the burden to inventory. Second, it will keep the loot system moving, as players will constantly be trying to acquire new pieces of loot to replace their old or perished items.In the description of Crafting vs. Loot, it says, "... the loot system should strengthen the relationship between crafters and combatants. Combatants should loot items that crafters need and want to make better craftable items. Combatants would then need and want the better crafted items to find more loot. Repeat as necessary."
It makes sense that a combattant taking a looted component to a crafter in order to have a better item made strengthens the relationship between the two players... positive interdependency. Now, what if that strengthened relationship could be carried over between combattant and entertainer? Is that even possible?
Combattant loots a blank, perishable holorecording disk. They take the disk to an entertainer, and after negotiating a fair price for the service, physically trade it to the entertainer to get it "charged", or recorded. The entertainer essentially /setperforms the disk in our inventory, using even our current shaky mechanics (in the simplest form, using our existing code) to place a ready to go entertainer buff recording that can be activated at a later time. Optionally, the holodisk recording could only be used in locations that currently allow buffing, such as a scout camp or house, etc. Once the stored buff is activated, the disk is consumed as perishable loot.
Considerations:
- It seems that if a combattant sees a loot item as something that they can use later for their own benefit, they are more excited about it - and the process of having that component transformed into the bonus item is a much more pleasant one of anticipation of reward. Might this be a step in repairing the perceptions that many of those combattants have that entertainers are merely timesinks that they are forced to undergo?
- The act of having to physically trade for the disk, and then /setperform it, might just give the live entertainer a huge advantage over the buffbot. It is an interactive process, requiring active control, with the end result of giving the combat player something that they want... the ability to activate an entertainer buff on the famous "off-hours", or even simply for "convenience" in fulfilling the completion of that bonus looted item. But at some point, their trade-off for convenience is needing to make a trip to a live entertainer to prepare those disks, much as they need to purchase armor or weapons. If interacting with a live entertainer is simply inconceivable, well, the buffbots aren't being banned any time soon... but, what if the ability to get those holodisk recordings became even more desirable than the fear of interaction?
- Multiples of these blank disks could indeed be looted, stockpiled, or whatnot. Still, if each one needed to be charged with an individual /setperform (not sure if an entertainer group buff on holodisks would open up gross potential abuse - worth considering though), we maintain the time resource requirement for buffing, but could potentially free up time for those combattants that are anti-social, yet still meet in the middle in a sense. Drop off a stack of holodisks to be recorded by an entertainer, and come back to pick up your order later. As I've said before... those players who enjoy interacting with us in the cantina still do so, even to this day - this may just get the hostile feelings toned down a notch or four.
- Another consideration could be that holodisk loot was completely perishable, following again in the Loot Revamp description, in that the disks themselves would not last forever either, even if unused. If holodisk recordings were consumed on use, but also had a set time before they simply deteriorated, we'd be less likely to see the availability of simply stockpiling hundreds or thousands of these items, thus buying up a lack of future interdependency. Another concept worthy of consideration.
- Or, some form of maximum number of disks that a player could hold at one time, though I'm not sure if the loot code contains provisions that could accomodate this concept. This whole goofy idea is based on trying to get a little edge out of existing systems with a minimum of tweaks, not calling for new rewrites.
- BF healing is not addressed in this idea, as it opens up problems of healing XP gains; how much to award, and when to award it, as the amount of BF healed may be unknown at the time of recording. On the other hand, it may be simple enough to have dual-purpose disks... a properly /setperformed and charged/recorded disk could be used in the field for one of two radial menu options... activate entertainer buff, or heal 300 BF, player choice - and then that disk is consumed. Problems with this idea still surround that nasty healing XP question though. XP couldn't be awarded at the time of recording, as no actual healing had been done, only potential healing - and with enough looted disks, one could simply charge disks for healing (and gaining healing XP) then destroy them. And if healing XP wasn't awarded, would this impact the leveling of up and coming entertainer players? Considering the current environment of buffbots, would this make things any worse than it already is for levelers?
Okay, plenty to chew on and discuss. Maybe a stupid idea that's just come too late, maybe something that could improve our gameplay and environment while awaiting a proper redesign, maybe some kind of building block for proper redesign, or maybe just an idea so riddled with holes that it's impractical.
Edit: added clicky link to Loot Revamp that I intended to have, then forgot to place.
Message Edited by Xyrdre on 11-05-2004 03:12 PM
Esharra
Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:00 pm
#2
I like this idea very much. I could see something like a 5 charge holodisk. Multiple charges would give the item a greater value, hence less likely to just be deleted, yet not so many charges as to remove interdependency. If this could be done with our wonky code, it might even allow for us to be able to buff ourselves.
Tangleweb
Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:48 am
#3
what about people that give them to their buffbot alts?don't you think they'd end up in the hands ofadara or lilkitten (or nars or christen), they'd set up drop and pick-up times with the "mains," fill them up and keep going. and they'd never reach the hands of live dancers or musicians. it's a good idea, but a pretty easily abusable one. thats just my opinion, i could be wrong, but it's still my opinion.
Rosaria
Xyrdre
Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:34 pm
#4
Umm... well, if Adara and lilkitten had to actively buff those discs all day rather than passively group buff, they wouldn't be buffbots at that point, would they?
Now, the idea may be goofy, but if it requires active /setperform to charge a holodisk, I don't *think* that can be botted.Are theremacroablecommands that can respond to a trade request, accept the trade (probably yes so far), then select the items from inventory that were just received, then open their radial menus to select one of a couple of choices, then perhaps even enter a validation code (?) akin to the Destroy Structure numbers, then /setperform that disk? If so, consider the whole goofy idea as... well, goofy. If not, any other ways something could break here? Could it possibly make anything worse than they already are? Do we care?
I mean, the easiest way to look at it is just don't bother, let the bots have the buffing and healing 'business' of SWG, and we'll just move on and find otherstuff to do,or cancel,until we get a profession revamp. I think a lot of us arekinda mostlydecided on one of those courses of actionanyway. Just had a spark of an idea strike me when seeing the Loot Revamp notes, and thought.. eh, why not pitch a skeleton idea?
Either others are thinking about this still, or aren't at all interested any more, or are just too frustrated with the professions to bother reading another Deila mini-novel. If no one sees any merit in there, it can drop.
If no one sees any merit in there, it can drop.
Esharra
Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:11 pm
#5
Nope..don't think a bot could manage it. I think that any degree of lag would eliminate the ability to use a 3rd party app to move objects to the trade window dependably enough to warrant making a business of it. Additionally, buff botting is all about not having to bother..I don't think they would.
Tangleweb
Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:19 am
#6
ok i see where you're going now, youwere a little vague at first, to bot all those commands does make it preferable for a live ent to service. but everyonce in a while, you can catch a bot owner, atk, for a long period of time actually. i've had a couple conversations with adara that lasted all night. it's actually kind of amazing that she doesn't play live with as much as she babbles on when someone is talking to her. kind of like me at 5 am!
Rosaria
ImajiNashun
Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:15 am
#7
I don't think this idea is the least bit goofy! As a novice dancer, at this time I am more interested in getting healing points to get to master, than I am in the buff issues. so....(from a newb's point of view)
What if apprentice and novice dancers got their healing XP from recording battle fatigue healing disks at a set number of points for us per disk. The customer would be obligated to tip *cough cough* for the amount of healing he/she would get from that disk, which is dependent on the level of the dancer/musician.The entertainer then gets their points even if the customer never uses the disk at all. Buff disks could only be recorded by a master dancer/musician, as my itty bitty novice buffs are laughed at anyway.
Another spin might be that the blank disks be acquired only through the entertainer missions (which i am keeping my fingers crossed will be new and improved :/)and could be recorded at our convenience. The customer would have to come to us to purchase a disk for use whenever he/she needed it. This would continue to allow our services to be necessary in healing places. And if the disk was limited by the combatant to only be used if their battle fatigue was less than say 50 points(0 ?), then they would still require entertainer healing, either by a novice disk or by actually watching us.
I am excited about this idea and had to put in my 2 credits! thanks 
Xyrdre
Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:44 am
#8
Really, the main new idea here is that the disks would be loot - we've discussed crafted disks like this long ago and a couple of times. For purposes of a new spin on holodisks, if we were to acquire the blank disks ourselves from entertainer missions, it's about the same as if crafters made them.
The problems with adding healing XP and such have also been discussed, and really aren't all that addressed in my idea here. Basically, if we get the XP for healing 300 BF to a disk, and that disk is never used, we received XP without doing any actual healing:
Whatwould prevent simply 'recording' BF healing to disks just to level, then not caring what happens to those disks? Goes against the spirit of healing XP, and turns into grinding... gah, no fun. And it wouldn't evenreally be healing XP anymore... it would be holodisk recording XP.
Awarding healing XP at a later time than when it was recorded has two-fold problems - first is that the game database has to track later usage and remember the character who performed to that disk, and that system may not be running very well in SWG. The second problem is that it would likely cause an even greater shortage of available healing XP to the entertainer community, as healing XP is multiplied when entertainers aregrouped (healing XP is not divided amongst the entertainers in the group, but rather awarded individually to all group members). At the time the disk was used, the potential extra healing XP that would have gone to all other members of an entertainer group would simply be lost, and awarded only to the recorder of the disk. Assuming an average ent group size of 10, this would mean an average healing XP loss of 90%... and we all know how healing XP is already in short enough supply.
The angle on this'Holodisks as Loot' ideais more psychological... if a combat player comes to us to buy a disk, there's not too much difference than if they just came to buy a buff the way things currently work. By having a disk be a loot item, one that is not prepared yet, there is now a positive reason to come to another player to make it into something useful... something to look forward to. The loot is theirs... they got it... and it's just up tothem to get it to someone (an entertainer)to "power it up" into something that can give them an edge. Much in the same way it is when a player loots some nice krayt tissues... those tissues do nothing for them until they get them to a weaponsmith to be made into something useful. There's a sense that they have something worth looting, and that conversion into a useful item is what the devs meant when they talked about strengthening the relationship between combattant and crafter.
My thoughts on this idea are not so much on the salability of items, though that's a very nice side-benefit. Originally it wasn't aboutthe possibilities that this could shift some buffing business to live entertainers away from bots, but that is another nice side-benefit.
My thoughts were more along the lines of strengthening the relationship between combattant and entertainer. The idea that struck me with this is that it could present a vehicle by which morecombat players were looking forward to a visit to an entertainer, rather than dreading it as downtime forced on them by negative conditions (BF and mind wounds), or dreading having to wait whilein an incredible hurry (buffs as combat preparation), timeswhen ourresource costs of time for buffing are at odds with their schedules. That really is the core of it; when someone's called to defend a base, every second counts... they're worked up and ready to go, and the time it takes for us to buff - not our fault, but how they were designed - goes directly at odds withsituations whereour services are in demand.
Any time a combat player has a reason to look forward to a benefit from an entertainer, without stress, it's one step closer to a much better experience for all of us. Maybe this idea could be one piece of that puzzle.
Esharra
Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:15 am
#9
Xyrdre wrote:
My thoughts on this idea are not so much on the salability of items, though that's a very nice side-benefit. Originally it wasn't aboutthe possibilities that this could shift some buffing business to live entertainers away from bots, but that is another nice side-benefit.
My thoughts were more along the lines of strengthening the relationship between combattant and entertainer. The idea that struck me with this is that it could present a vehicle by which morecombat players were looking forward to a visit to an entertainer, rather than dreading it as downtime forced on them by negative conditions (BF and mind wounds), or dreading having to wait whilein an incredible hurry (buffs as combat preparation), timeswhen ourresource costs of time for buffing are at odds with their schedules. That really is the core of it; when someone's called to defend a base, every second counts... they're worked up and ready to go, and the time it takes for us to buff - not our fault, but how they were designed - goes directly at odds withsituations whereour services are in demand.
Any time a combat player has a reason to look forward to a benefit from an entertainer, without stress, it's one step closer to a much better experience for all of us. Maybe this idea could be one piece of that puzzle.
The above exactly itterates what I believe is the big plus for us with this idea. A combattant would be able to purchase our services at their leisure, as they would schedule a visit with a weaponsmith or armorsmith. The greatest detriment to our relationship with those who want our services is that buffs are rendered before combat.
Anoewyn
Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:08 am
#10
I really really quite like this idea - but as some have pointed out,it needs to be implemented with caution Buffbots are managed by greedy people who do not like to expend any energy in getting things for free and have no qualms about giving out everything for free at the expense of everyone else who is effected by their selfishness (there, I said it.), and when there is an ego, there is a will and they will find a way. However, perhaps my view is biased as I amanother "burn" victim, and naturally quite sceptical to the presence of intelligent lifeforms inhabited onthe planet Dev.
Buffbots are managed by greedy people who do not like to expend any energy in getting things for free and have no qualms about giving out everything for free at the expense of everyone else who is effected by their selfishness (there, I said it.), and when there is an ego, there is a will and they will find a way. However, perhaps my view is biased as I amanother "burn" victim, and naturally quite sceptical to the presence of intelligent lifeforms inhabited onthe planet Dev.But not to dampen this great idea - this is the kind of things we should be putting in the loot system thread, to make the Devs aware/inspired/intrigued/impressed or whatever, so they know what kinds of things will help our profession. One of our main issues as an entertainer isour connection to the general playerbase is our availability to them, and I think this idea of holodisk would be a great step in that direction. Nicely done
In addition, I suggested in the musician thread from Warryr's topic - what if they Devs also used the new loot system as a way of implementing all those performance props we listed a long time back? Perhaps those items could have special bonuses to buffing/healing when equipped, which may proove useful and help fill the gap if these mind elixirs do get the go-ahead. Just a short list ofsome ideas:
- Pompoms mightincrease your faction point reward for faction gained by mission terminalsfor a set period of time, because you feel inspired and patriotic towards your faction from being cheered on?
-Maybe feathers can increase someone's terrain speed for a short period of time?
-Finger cymbals increase a TKMs zen regen?
- Ceremonial blades, knives, staves/poles or bladed fans help increase ones chance to critical strike?
- Veils to enhance someones camouflage and mask-scenting abilities?
-Could wands with streamers be used to increase a crafter's experimentation?
These are just ideas, but the kinds of things I was thinking of not only add to our content and visual appeal, they also help improve our interaction with various customers as they would prolly be after different things. In addition, these suggestions don't encroach on the economy of our chefs, as we would be enhancing things that are different to them.
What other kinds of things in the loot system would other people like to see?
Bajonett
Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:16 am
#11
Nice Idea. but useless if you can Macro it. The Buffbot sits in some secluded spot and charges disc after disc....
/shudder
Recursing Macros have to go first.
Llandros
Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:32 am
#12
how aobut combining the older idea fo holodisc's with tgis new one?
holodiscs are looted by combatants as this idea suggests and need to be brought to an entertainer to be recorded
however in orer to record them you need a holodisc recorder (limited charge item quested fomr say the hutt casino, once youve used it you can quest another, entertainers only quest (say master musicain or dancer for buff discs)
this means that combatants are looting stuff and taking it to someeon to be made usable (eg much like looting a nice wep componant/armour componant) however in order to make it usable the person its taken to has to have done some active work thmeselves (ie most bots wont bother and those that do will be the ones that are part bot part live entertainer) bots will still buff and hela in cnatinas more effiecently thna live entertainers(at least till the macor fix) but ther will be a bonus service offered by any enertainer who actualyl plays the game, so ther no penulty for akf play only a penulty for being to lazy to do a bit of questing, uber wepason dont jsut drop fomr the sky so why shoudl special recording devices for making buffing holodiscs (usable only were an entertainer coudl normally buff you)
LyteFoot
Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:46 am
#13
Bajonett wrote:
Nice Idea. but useless if you can Macro it. The Buffbot sits in some secluded spot and charges disc after disc....
/shudder
Recursing Macros have to go first.
OK they are going someday its the timeline that isn't clear. We have got to stop gaging every single idea against this because it can't get worse but if we don't get some content it won't get better. I don't think this is macro-able by the ingame tools and if they are discovered using 3rd party tools then they are bannable. If it is macro-able I don't care, give us tools while the devs are working on new content. We will survive the bots or not but take advantage of dev focus to get us tools for when they do go away.
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