Dancer Archive
Thread: A Compromise of Sorts Updated 09-30-2004 06:57 PM
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Eaca
Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:45 pm
#1
We, as entertainers, need to come up with some sort of compromise. No, not between the bots, they and all other forms of unattended play need to go. What we need is a comprimise between us and the rest of the SWG comunity. Lets face it, if macros were nerfed tomorow, the game would be in a serious state of hurt. Yes guilds would still have bots tucked away in hard to reach corners of thier cities, and others with the RL means would have a second account to buff and heal, but the majority of players, those with just one character, will have BF and mind wounds piling up on them. Before devs take away 90% of the entertainers in the galaxies, they need to have something to... supliment them with.
The idea of pre-recorded holo disks to heal and buff has been brought up several times, which would obviously destroy entertaining as we know it, turning us into yet another crafting class, and thats not what we want. What we need is a way to be LIVE yet reach out and buff and heal across the galaxy...
My idea is less compromise, more solution, but I think it would work for both parties, and benefit all.
In certain generally more populated area, my recommendations would be bestine, theed, and coronet, add on to the cantinas there a holonet broadcast section. On the more remote planets such as lok, dath, endor, and dantooine, select a NPC city our outpost and place a holonet reciever or two in the cantina's there. Logging into a holonet reciever broadcasts a signal to all holonet broadcast stations. Any station with an available and registered entertainer, who isn't occupied with another holonet session, will send the entertainer some sort of notice that a request has been made for thier services. Let entertainers register as healers and/or buffers, and the user to select which service they seek. If the entertainer accepts a small BH droid looking thing comes over to record them as they perform, sending the image to the person requesting. Healing would happen at a rate 25 bellow your current fatigue and wound healing abilities, with modifiers, and buffing would be your INATE buff ability -25% (so 75 for masters, 38.5 for those with technique 3 and 7.5% for novices, etc... For buffing skill attachments and any other modifiers would NOT count for the buff, for those to work you have to see them live. I required payment window would appear prior to accepting the request, allowing the entertainers to charge as they see fit, also I think it should report the requesters wounds and BF, but that would be more of just a "nicety". Give the customer an option to request somebody if they're available, and the option to wait in line for that person. Since all buffs over the holonet are equal for equal level dancers, people don't need to worry about somebody with good attachments hogging all the business, just some may have a preference for a friend or such. Also the customer can see and hear everything the entertainer does and says, but not the surounding conversation, and the entertainer can hear what the customer says too.
Entertainers can still congretage into large groups as we like to, anybody can find entertainers fairly easy, be it at a remote outpost or one of the normal gathering areas. Also with the remote broadcasting ability in place, you could setup displays in different areas, maybe outside starports in cities, giving passerbyers an idea of whats going on in the cantina, or perhaps have public display booths where you can perform in with a small groupand have it broadcast to various displays around the galaxy, no buffing or healing for watching them, just something for people to pass the time with as they wait on doctor buffs or shuttles...
Something like this would NEED to go in at the same time as the macro nerf to ensure the combatants of the galaxies recieve uninterupted access to entertainer healing. Yes yes, I know they would have brought this on themselves, but no need to make things between us and them even worse in the transition period, if they could go from reliance on bots to readily available entertainers where they need them in one patch, then everybody wins, the sudden loss of all of the bots coupled with our pent up frustrations, and sudden inavailability would only lead to more hostilities between the two "factions".
Updates:
EH xp would transfer thru the holonet to both the performer AND thier group, same as if the person was watching live.
Group healing/buffing would NOT be an option thru the net. You could use the holonet to find an entertainer and arrange suitable compensation for them to travel from where they are to where you are to heal and buff your group. I see remote group healing/buffing as being a bit "too convinient". The point of this isn't to make us completely common comodity, just a bit less inconvinient to our customer base.
Message Edited by Eaca on 09-30-2004 06:56 PM
Nacoa
Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:14 pm
#2
I'd argue that before we break out a compromise that turns entertainers back into a comodity, we should see what happens.
Usually, you can find a Doc to buff at all hours. Once entertainers are worthwhile to play, I expect we'll be able to find entertainers at all hours.
Any sort of "compromise" that stops the entertainers from being live is going to be abused by the same people that do buffbots now, and we're back in the same position.
I believe in economics enough to believe that if buffbots were removed, more entertainers would be created to take their place.
Usually, you can find a Doc to buff at all hours. Once entertainers are worthwhile to play, I expect we'll be able to find entertainers at all hours.
Any sort of "compromise" that stops the entertainers from being live is going to be abused by the same people that do buffbots now, and we're back in the same position.
I believe in economics enough to believe that if buffbots were removed, more entertainers would be created to take their place.
Eaca
Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:39 pm
#3
Yes more ents would come or go back to being ents if they left, but I don't think we'll ever see enough ents to where they're common in out of place areas. We're socialites, we want to be around people, if nobody is coming thru dath outpost, we're probably not gonna want to stay there and be alone regardless of how well tipped we are. Live ents have historically congregated in large groups, we'd rather all be in theed cantina in 2 full groups with a 3rd standby group than distributed about the galaxy in pairs... Nothing the devs do, no amount of tip money is going to take away our desire to congregate in large groups. In order to be able to service people in remote corners we're going to need a way to broadcast our services. Note that my system puts a handycap on broadcast services as well, meaning a master dancer inhabiting the cantina with the reciever in it will get chosen over the service, since they can heal/buff more than one person at a time AND thier heals are faster and buffs are bigger. The system I proposed gives players the chance to get healed more convieniently while still leaving room for the live ents who go there. Either way they have to deal with a live person, either thru the machine or face to face, since face to face is inherently better, the live and local will be picked over live and remote (tho live and remote will be available for those late night healings when live ents are hardest to find)
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:12 am
#4
FuschiaD wrote:
The ONLY idea for off-peak healing I like is recording and selling 'holovids' of dances or whatever. That will at least allow us to continue to sell our wares, even when we're not online. Anything else singles us out unfairly.
Message Edited by FuschiaD on 09-30-2004 12:57 AM
Creating a craftable consumable of any sort that can replace us in functionality to any degree would not provide an off-peak solution, it would replace our live performance and turn us into crafters. What I am proposing is similar yet you can't stock and hold these vids on a vendor. You go to a vending station and buy a "live" holovid from an entertainer who is currently online, just in a different location. Otherwise all these buff bots become holo vid vendors and all us liveents are still SOL
FuschiaD
Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:21 am
#5
I liked your idea, actually. I'm for anything that doesn't replace us with NPC entertainers and doesn't single out our profession as needing something to 'tide players over' when they can't find one of us.
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:35 am
#6
Let me give you a run down of how it works...
Joe Combatant just gets done with a run around dathomire, and he'd like to log off, unfortunately there are no live entertainers (or afk ones for that matter since bots have been removed from this scenerio). There is however a holonet reciever in the back of the cantina in science outpost. He goes into the back sits down and brings up the menu, he selects wound and fatigue healing.
You, a ATK live entertainer, are in theed cantina partying with your friends. You earlier in the night registered with the cantina as a healer and buffer on the holonet (since theed is one of the broadcast sites). A small droid floats up to you and informs you there's a request for healing on the holonet, and asks you to access the droid for more information. The radial menu on the droid has 2 options, examine and mission information. You select mission information and it informs you that a Mr. Joe Combatant on Dathomire is requesting a performance to ease his mind, you contact Joe via tells and agree to a price, then you accept this "mission" as it were. You then begin (or continue) to dance or play as you chose.
Joe on Dathomire now sees a holographic display of you dancing in front of him, doing the same dance and same flourishes you are doing in Theed, he is watching the real live you performing, just at a remote location. But since it is just a hologram, not the real thing its not QUITE as soothing as being there, so it takes him a bit longer to relax and unwind to heal his mind wounds and BF than if he had come to see you in theed in person.
At the end the pre-determined ammount of credits are withdrawn from Joe's account and deposited into yours, and additionally a service fee is also withdrawn from Joe's bank to pay for upkeep of the holonet.
No bots involved, Joe is matched with a live and willing entertainer who is able to heal his mind wounds and BF, a secure means is made to aquire payment for our services, you get paid, and the game has another small but useful money sink. Joe gets healed, live entertainers make money and are more readily available (not available everywhere mind you, since the holonet recievers are only in select locations) and you can extend this to preform buffs in a similar manner.
The difference if a live entertainer were there is Joe wouldn't have to mess with the interface, wouldn't have to pay the extra fee, and would get healed faster by the local live performance, so those that chose to go to these remote locations lose NOTHING by them being there, its cheaper and less akward for them to use a live entertainer, BUT if ones not available they can find one somewhere else.
Oh, and it would be cool if the holovid version of us had a little shimmery surreal effect around us 
Dreamland
Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:52 am
#7
Eaca wrote:
Let me give you a run down of how it works...
Joe Combatant just gets done with a run around dathomire, and he'd like to log off, unfortunately there are no live entertainers (or afk ones for that matter since bots have been removed from this scenerio). There is however a holonet reciever in the back of the cantina in science outpost. He goes into the back sits down and brings up the menu, he selects wound and fatigue healing.
You, a ATK live entertainer, are in theed cantina partying with your friends. You earlier in the night registered with the cantina as a healer and buffer on the holonet (since theed is one of the broadcast sites). A small droid floats up to you and informs you there's a request for healing on the holonet, and asks you to access the droid for more information. The radial menu on the droid has 2 options, examine and mission information. You select mission information and it informs you that a Mr. Joe Combatant on Dathomire is requesting a performance to ease his mind, you contact Joe via tells and agree to a price, then you accept this "mission" as it were. You then begin (or continue) to dance or play as you chose.
Joe on Dathomire now sees a holographic display of you dancing in front of him, doing the same dance and same flourishes you are doing in Theed, he is watching the real live you performing, just at a remote location. But since it is just a hologram, not the real thing its not QUITE as soothing as being there, so it takes him a bit longer to relax and unwind to heal his mind wounds and BF than if he had come to see you in theed in person.
At the end the pre-determined ammount of credits are withdrawn from Joe's account and deposited into yours, and additionally a service fee is also withdrawn from Joe's bank to pay for upkeep of the holonet.
No bots involved, Joe is matched with a live and willing entertainer who is able to heal his mind wounds and BF, a secure means is made to aquire payment for our services, you get paid, and the game has another small but useful money sink. Joe gets healed, live entertainers make money and are more readily available (not available everywhere mind you, since the holonet recievers are only in select locations) and you can extend this to preform buffs in a similar manner.
The difference if a live entertainer were there is Joe wouldn't have to mess with the interface, wouldn't have to pay the extra fee, and would get healed faster by the local live performance, so those that chose to go to these remote locations lose NOTHING by them being there, its cheaper and less akward for them to use a live entertainer, BUT if ones not available they can find one somewhere else.
Oh, and it would be cool if the holovid version of us had a little shimmery surreal effect around us
Unforunately it would take longer than 3.65 seconds to code. So the dev team would see it as a waste of time. As they have aparently seen the multitude of ideas that the entertainer community has put forth, that do not involve pressing the backspace key realy fastwhile ordering a cuppucino for the soe company gopher to pick up while they are out getting the daily lunch order.
Bitter, who's bitter?
Aynianu
Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:47 am
#8
Let me just step in and say live entertainers are just not that rare.
Im sure its not just my server, but on average there is about 5-10 live entertainers in either mos eisley or coronet. Removing afk entertainers would not by any means remove the entertainers from places like this completely, infact for just mind healing it wouldnt make any difference. Some of the live entertainers afk often, but also enjoy staying and chatting, i think these would just be online less during the offpeak times. But there are a good 1-2 allways who are avid anti-afk just like me.
Ive seen upto 5 non-afk master dancers in mos eisley at once before, So even buffs may not be that much harder to find.
Only problem ive seen is on my server there is about 10x more master dancers than musicians that actually visit cantina's, i rarely see musicians at all. And most buffbots tend to be dancer/musician.
Tandava
Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:20 am
#9
First I think its a very cute and fun idea. The menu for selecting dancers AND musicians could even link to a profile or something. I think its probably more star warsy then hopping a shuttle from one end of the galaxy to another, encourages registration for several things, gets around the place issues and still gives a potential market for live on location entertainers. Also even without bots removed and even if bots registered they probably wouldn't be around to click all the options in negotiation and so wouldn't be using the service afk. It also allows dancers to remain safe with their friends if they so choose.
If the other dancer's here like it why shouldn't it be proposed on the various melee/ranged weapons forums and see what they think of it? Because if we get their support that is a cross-community effort that is harder to ignore by the Dev's.
Perhaps there is a device that releases the droids like a seeker droid in each of thecities main cantinas that check the registration list and send an accept to the dancer to initiate a job. This also complements the Entertainer mission ideas making it the Entertainer equivalent of a live bounty hunter mission.
Perhaps something could eventually be added to private cantinas to register for this droid service too at a cost or addition to the politician tree, so we can link the request up with politicians and architechts too.
And for another fee or a rare drop a droid module might be acquired that could allow an Entertainment Holonet Linkup or an expensive additional type of camp for a Ranger to make that would allow people in the wilds to also access the Entertainment Holonet Linkup and get healed in a camp with a live entertainer for the same fee and idea thus bringing in the rangers and droid engineers to our side as well.
I think its a fantastic idea. And cute. And it adds NO spam to the game in fact it might reduce some spam to the game as dancers and musicians are where they want to be and fighters are where they want to be, and socialization can happen cheaper and quicker if they want to come to cantinas, hotels and events.
It can also be used by entertainers to develop a clientele, meet new people, spread the news to events or invite them in to the cantina some time.
Goldy_Lhim
Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:40 am
#10
I also do not think dancers are that rare but I love this idea. Its a better option than any i've heard in a while.
Points I like:
- Register works
- Easier for those wee hour fighters to find entertainers without forcing entertainers to dance in empty cantinas in remote planets.
- Its not craftable so I don't have to craft - gah I hate crafting!
- Its not storable to use later in place of a live entertainer.
- I have a choice to accept the mission, not that I wouldn't but I'd have to check my "people to kill" list first of course
Questions I have:
- What if its not just Joe Combat but Joe Combat's group? Could they all call me, or could just Joe call me for his group?
- What if its not a group but like 5 separate people?
- Could we do this from player cantinas or just NPCs? Perhaps more player cantinas could be used if they could receive a call anywhere.
Tandava
Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:53 am
#11
Goldy_Lhim wrote:
Questions I have:
- What if its not just Joe Combat but Joe Combat's group? Could they all call me, or could just Joe call me for his group?
- What if its not a group but like 5 separate people?
- Could we do this from player cantinas or just NPCs? Perhaps more player cantinas could be used if they could receive a call anywhere.
Great questions Goldy lets see if we can hammer out the ideas, find the holes or come up with the questions because the more we can present to ourselves and other people the more possible the idea might be to code, promote or realize!
Do we want to allow for group buffing? Yes or No?
If Yes that will automatically allow us to negotiate higher prices, it can only be for the group that is negotiated, only Joe can initiate contact and when the buffing is done the whole group is disconnected. Its effectively a locked incident and nobody can join his group once the transmission begins. This would prevent group cheating issues.
If we do not want to allow for group buffing but ONLY individual buffing it further promotes the group to seek out live entertainers, or travel or pay for entertainers to join them, so there is a pro both ways. Higher price negotiation and more money for groups as long as they can be locked, but also if single only it encourages groups to seek out live entertainers.
If however bots are still in the game, groups are more likely to seek out a bot so keep that in mind.
What if 5 separate people choose you? I think this is an easier one. Once you accept a contract with one person your name on the buffing Holonet menu might change to Engaged with Client and nobody would be able to select you until you are finished with your original transmission. Although humorous I'm not sure I like the image of 5 bots floating around one entertainer when there are other people that could use the service. If its 3am PST and you're the only registered dancer? Then they can either come to the cantina, group together or wait 5 minutes for their turn.
Unless we like the idea of allowing perhaps 2 separate sessions to go on, but I do think there should be a limit. What do people think?
Player cantinas. I do not think this would encourage player cantina use. Not even remotely. Dancers and musicians usually flee player cantinas because of lack of audiences and this is a system to reinforce a lack of audience to one degree or another. However I think if they allow us to register in private cantinas then the problem is solved because its all through a registration program. Perhaps its an additional city tax for it or has to be a setting the manager puts up. What is does allow us to do is follow the dancer or musician no matter where they are as long as they register with the location and that I think might sit well with everyone.
Comments? Ideas? Problems?
Goldy_Lhim
Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:22 am
#12
Tandava wrote:
Great questions Goldy lets see if we can hammer out the ideas, find the holes or come up with the questions because the more we can present to ourselves and other people the more possible the idea might be to code, promote or realize!
Do we want to allow for group buffing? Yes or No?
If Yes that will automatically allow us to negotiate higher prices, it can only be for the group that is negotiated, only Joe can initiate contact and when the buffing is done the whole group is disconnected. Its effectively a locked incident and nobody can join his group once the transmission begins. This would prevent group cheating issues.
If we do not want to allow for group buffing but ONLY individual buffing it further promotes the group to seek out live entertainers, or travel or pay for entertainers to join them, so there is a pro both ways. Higher price negotiation and more money for groups as long as they can be locked, but also if single only it encourages groups to seek out live entertainers.
If however bots are still in the game, groups are more likely to seek out a bot so keep that in mind.
What if 5 separate people choose you? I think this is an easier one. Once you accept a contract with one person your name on the buffing Holonet menu might change to Engaged with Client and nobody would be able to select you until you are finished with your original transmission. Although humorous I'm not sure I like the image of 5 bots floating around one entertainer when there are other people that could use the service. If its 3am PST and you're the only registered dancer? Then they can either come to the cantina, group together or wait 5 minutes for their turn.
Unless we like the idea of allowing perhaps 2 separate sessions to go on, but I do think there should be a limit. What do people think?
Player cantinas. I do not think this would encourage player cantina use. Not even remotely. Dancers and musicians usually flee player cantinas because of lack of audiences and this is a system to reinforce a lack of audience to one degree or another. However I think if they allow us to register in private cantinas then the problem is solved because its all through a registration program. Perhaps its an additional city tax for it or has to be a setting the manager puts up. What is does allow us to do is follow the dancer or musician no matter where they are as long as they register with the location and that I think might sit well with everyone.
Comments? Ideas? Problems?
I personally would vote yes on group buffs through a terminal. Like you said, if they can't use me they may just find someone close by (read a buffbot) to take care of them instead.
But if we don't want to allow buffing remotely like this, perhaps instead the terminal can work both ways. I can register my services for remote healing and combatants can request buffing services? I mean if I saw there were 20 people on dathomir wanting a buff I would be inclined to visit there and help them out and line my pockets a bit. Just thinking outloud 
I don't think we should have more than one mission at a time either. I like the "engaged" message. That make sense
My thoughts with the player cantina was that if you perform solely out of your cantina, you would be completely left out of this healing business. You'd have to abandon it to get requests like this to dance in NPCs. I wasn't suggesting it'd bring in more spectators, but that dancers may have to leave them to be included in the missions. If they can register and take part in the services, I think that would be better.
Oqua
Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:37 am
#13
I too am jaded.
I am a fighter person in game, that I play ALOT...never have I been that handicapped by not having a buff or not getting healed right that second.
So...
If this compromise goes into effect...whomever is doing the talking for us entertainers...please push for other services of players to be automated too (and always available). I have been sidelined more into non-combatant status by not having doctor buffs then not having entertainer buffs and/or BF healing.
Sorry, but I am of the opinion that bending over backwards too too much will again reinforce in every ones mind that we are just an eyecandy/fluff/chatroom class in the galaxy....and thats NOT what we are.
If you can find a solution that isn't going to seem like we are "catering" then I am all for it, otherwise I would like catering in other areas as well please, not just the entertainer genre.
Not being negative, I think its good to not argue and fight....but I do want to end the negative view that afk/bots have given us...that it takes nothing to be an entertainer and we can be easily replaced.
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