Dancer Archive
Thread: Proposal to deal with buff bots legally
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Wokka
Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:49 am
#1
Ok, since we're getting grief as ATK entertainers, we have to start using the natural mechanics of the game as well as social interaction to deal with "our problem".
My proposal is for all entertainers who are against buff-bots, put the patrons as well as the bots on your ignore list. I already started this practice myself and you wouldn't believe how much better the world has become. My spacial gets spammed less often, I also don't get annoyances pinching me or hitting on me. You may even want to ANNOUNCE that you will put anyone who uses the services of the buff bots, on your ignore list.
We need to do this to protect ourselves folks. I'm not a revolutionary by any means, but we've given them time to give us a solution and it hasn't come yet. I think we've been rather patient, and some of us have spontaneously combusted, lol.
Also, I want to add that even though I have a HUGE ignore list, I still have a plethora of customers, and by the sheer virtue of a people filter, most of them are really really good people.
Join me Okyy (wink) I'm starting a movement.
Wokka-wokka
My proposal is for all entertainers who are against buff-bots, put the patrons as well as the bots on your ignore list. I already started this practice myself and you wouldn't believe how much better the world has become. My spacial gets spammed less often, I also don't get annoyances pinching me or hitting on me. You may even want to ANNOUNCE that you will put anyone who uses the services of the buff bots, on your ignore list.
We need to do this to protect ourselves folks. I'm not a revolutionary by any means, but we've given them time to give us a solution and it hasn't come yet. I think we've been rather patient, and some of us have spontaneously combusted, lol.
Also, I want to add that even though I have a HUGE ignore list, I still have a plethora of customers, and by the sheer virtue of a people filter, most of them are really really good people.
Join me Okyy (wink) I'm starting a movement.
Wokka-wokka
Ignok
Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:04 am
#2
I have a huge ignore list because of the "Buff starts in 30 seconds!" or "invite plz" every 20 seconds spam. But I find the more I tell people I'm going out of my way to ignore bots, the less sympathetic they are to my cause.
DeathsEgo
Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:06 am
#3
Thats a good idea and for people that I ignore for spam I personally /report them before I put em on ignore. Spam is against the EULA and they claim they are still enforcing that. If they arent then they have alot to delete every morning.
"MMMMM Thanks %TT for feeding my ignore list, It was hungry!"
"MMMMM Thanks %TT for feeding my ignore list, It was hungry!"
Wokka
Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:15 am
#4
Ignok wrote:I have a huge ignore list because of the "Buff starts in 30 seconds!" or "invite plz" every 20 seconds spam. But I find the more I tell people I'm going out of my way to ignore bots, the less sympathetic they are to my cause.
Ok but I want to take this a step further and also ignore the people that USE the buffbots too. I want them to know that if they subscribe to a service that hurts entertainers, then they are part of the problem too.
/addignore J-lo
/addignore that guy trying to get into the j-lo group
Ignoring the bots is NOT enough. We must alienate their customers too. True they could be OUR potential customers too, but they're not. Once the buff bot problem is gone, I may have an amnesty clause to get them off my blacklist, but that's up to ME now isn't it? I'm tired of arguing with the bus driver, I'm in control of this thing now.
Wokka-wokka
PoetDancer
Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:10 am
#5
O dear, I don't know...
I have always lived by the rule of, "You catch more Kreetles with Carbosyrup than Sarlacc Bile." Do I like it when I welcome them to the Coronet Cantina and they shout "Thank you Briha" when Briha is not attended? I know they aren't doing it to impress a thought on the buffer, but rather to impress a thought on me. And of course I don't appreciate the displays. The way I see it though, they are just trying to get under my skin. So rather than get all pissy likethey expect me to do, I do the opposite. I just keep on being my cheery self. After all, what issue do I really have with them? They are my audience as well as the buffbot's, and just because they go to a buffbot doesn't mean they don't deserve a show from me. Everyone who comes to the cantina I am in gets a show--/watch, tip, or chat notwithstanding. Its not only the most worthwhile thing about this profession from my standpoint, its also the most valuable thing I can give. And I can point to several instances in my own cantina work where I made out like a bandit in thecredit departmentright under a buffbot's nose.
For example, just as there is no rule that says a player does not have to tip a dancer they /watch, there also is no rule that a player cannot tip a dancer they do not /watch. In fact, the ones I have observed who tend to do well in the cantina entertain regardless of who buffs whom, or who /watches whom. They, like I, go in it to be watched, not /watched. And only a dancer who doesn't know the difference between /watch and watch would even hope to think that /addignore and /deny are tools that are meant to be used as a matter of course. I don't think the act of putting someone on /deny, or even worse, threatening to put someone on /deny really helps me long term as I try to play this class.
And of course, nobody really wants to watch a dancer threaten to throw out /addignore and /deny. It is tantamount to an act of malice. And while I wish I could voice or act on my displeasure at some of the situations I have witnessed, I never, ever, ever do it in front of the patrons while I am performing. Ultimately I want to be able to serve them at some juncture, not /deny them. The disadvantages to my career and future prospects for enjoyment of this class far outweigh any temporary and instant satisfaction.
I have the tools to protect myself from being abused. But I see them as an absolute last resort, not a first response. My first response is usually just to leave the venue. I catch more Kreetles with Carbosyrup than Sarlacc Bile, and if I am not able to be sweet, I will go to great lengths to not be seen as bitter.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-18-2004 10:11 AM
Chessack
Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:20 am
#6
As usual I agree with PoetDancer.
I have always maintained that being nasty is not the way to earn respectful treatment. When they have tried to stage an "entertainer strike" (more than once this has happened), I have always opposed it, on the grounds that you are going to do nothing to affect the jerks you are protesting, and only going to generate ill will amongst the much larger group of people who would be inclined to tip you and be nice in the first place. As PoetD says, you get more Kreetles with carbosyrup. The biggest tips I've ever earned have come after me saying I do not charge for my services... and I guarantee the largest ones (25K, 12K, etc) are bigger than any fee any dancer could DEMAND and expect to get up front.
I put lots of people on my ignore list for SPAMMING.. but I'm not going to put them on my ignore list for taking services from a spammer. That's going too far, and to be fair you can't blame them for using the services that are, often, the only services there. Most people I have met in game prefer, and have respect for, actual A-T-K entertainers, but they rarely see us (this is entirely SOE's fault for not dealing with AFK when the time was ripe, and now it is basically too late), so how can you blame them for using the services that are there? And after months of that, for not even really knowing how to treat a live performer when one somehow shows up?
If you've got the stomach to stay in a cantina with AFK buffbots and try to "compete" with them (I personally don't, so I just walk out when I see a buffbot there), then ignoring the patrons is not the way to do it. Winning them over with your charm, grace, and skill is the way to do it. If they won't respond to that, well, then they will get what they deserve -- AFK buffbots as the only form of entertainment.
C
I have always maintained that being nasty is not the way to earn respectful treatment. When they have tried to stage an "entertainer strike" (more than once this has happened), I have always opposed it, on the grounds that you are going to do nothing to affect the jerks you are protesting, and only going to generate ill will amongst the much larger group of people who would be inclined to tip you and be nice in the first place. As PoetD says, you get more Kreetles with carbosyrup. The biggest tips I've ever earned have come after me saying I do not charge for my services... and I guarantee the largest ones (25K, 12K, etc) are bigger than any fee any dancer could DEMAND and expect to get up front.
I put lots of people on my ignore list for SPAMMING.. but I'm not going to put them on my ignore list for taking services from a spammer. That's going too far, and to be fair you can't blame them for using the services that are, often, the only services there. Most people I have met in game prefer, and have respect for, actual A-T-K entertainers, but they rarely see us (this is entirely SOE's fault for not dealing with AFK when the time was ripe, and now it is basically too late), so how can you blame them for using the services that are there? And after months of that, for not even really knowing how to treat a live performer when one somehow shows up?
If you've got the stomach to stay in a cantina with AFK buffbots and try to "compete" with them (I personally don't, so I just walk out when I see a buffbot there), then ignoring the patrons is not the way to do it. Winning them over with your charm, grace, and skill is the way to do it. If they won't respond to that, well, then they will get what they deserve -- AFK buffbots as the only form of entertainment.
C
DeathsEgo
Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:36 am
#7
I dont put people who just walk in and use the bot on my list, and I dont let them know in spatial. But if I send them a tell saying Im actually at the keyboard and also buffing, and they run to the buff bot, no problems but If they say entertainers are worthless and should be manned by bots they go on the list. and /Deny is still broken is it not? when you log off doesnt the list go away? Sunrunner has very few buff bots but they are kinda irregular since JTL I can only name J-lo in coro mostly and Teras-Kasi Lee whos been in the dant MO mostly. But since JTL I have not seen Teras, and J-lo only once. So its not as big a problem as bria. Most folks do infact wander around for a while looking for mind buffs and some tip well and some dont, but thats with everyone.
Groovymarlin
Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:37 am
#8
I put anyone who spams - buffbot or patron - on my ignore list. But I never announce it when I do. To announce that you're ignoring someone just seems childish. Oh sure, occasionally there's a really obnoxious turd in the cantina, and a bunch of us who are actually there will jokingly say "welcome to my ignore list, (turd)." But in this case, said turd is usually unattended anyway. 
I have had people tip me even though they used a buffbot. This usually happens after they've started receiving a buffbot's services and then realize that a live entertainer (me) is present. Sometimes I'll send a tell to say "Thank you for the tip, but I wish you'd let me buff you instead of using the buffbot next time." But it's not always a viable option, since often the buffbot is provding a music buff, which I can't do.
Anyway, it's always better to be nice than nasty. Entertainers have a bad enough rep in this game.
I have had people tip me even though they used a buffbot. This usually happens after they've started receiving a buffbot's services and then realize that a live entertainer (me) is present. Sometimes I'll send a tell to say "Thank you for the tip, but I wish you'd let me buff you instead of using the buffbot next time." But it's not always a viable option, since often the buffbot is provding a music buff, which I can't do.
Anyway, it's always better to be nice than nasty. Entertainers have a bad enough rep in this game.
Reachwind
Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:49 am
#9
This is exactly the kind of idea that reaffirms what the buff bot users and creators have been saying about entertainers as an excuse to validate their existance.
Two wrongs NEVER make a right.
Two wrongs NEVER make a right.
Wokka
Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:57 am
#10
Ok, I was hoping no one would get the idea that I was being nasty, Poetdancer. I wish you hadn't looked for that in my post. My intention was for entertainers to use the tool that was provided to them and use their brains and not their complaints or nastiness or vengefulness. I want us to band together and do what we can to thwart the usage of buffbots. I never once mentioned /deny, just /addignore. If you are not comfortable with ignoring people, by all means, don't do it. Believe it or not, I was not telling you what to do, lol. You can make your own decisions.
And also, the people on my list probably have no idea they're on it. I don't give warnings, I just do it.
I'm comfortable knowing that I have made my world much nicer by removing people that I don't want in it. the best part is... I made that decision myself, you didn't, SOE didn't, the buffbot didn't. If there are negative aspects to my decision, I am prepared to deal with them myself. Anyone I ignore can still get healing from me by watching but they won't be able to speak with me. Thats a punishment they earned from their actions. I have a great self-worth and a highly successful entertainer, if anyone gets on my ignore list its definitely their loss and not mine.
Wokka-wokka
And also, the people on my list probably have no idea they're on it. I don't give warnings, I just do it.
I'm comfortable knowing that I have made my world much nicer by removing people that I don't want in it. the best part is... I made that decision myself, you didn't, SOE didn't, the buffbot didn't. If there are negative aspects to my decision, I am prepared to deal with them myself. Anyone I ignore can still get healing from me by watching but they won't be able to speak with me. Thats a punishment they earned from their actions. I have a great self-worth and a highly successful entertainer, if anyone gets on my ignore list its definitely their loss and not mine.
Wokka-wokka
PoetDancer
Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:33 am
#11
Oh I never wanted to cast you that way at all dear. There may be very legitimate reasons to do it. The problem though is--rightly or wrongly--that oftentimes the perception of the things we do or not do in the cantina make the difference in how we are treated as individuals and as a profession. We may have very real and reasonable reasons for doing the things we do. I'd have to say manyin the audiencedeserve to be ignored or denied. But just because they deserve to be ignored and denied doesn't mean it is in our interest to do so.
All I can do is tell you is of my own experiences with clients I thought at first glance wouldn't care. And nine times out of ten, they don't on the first encounter. But I have found that if I just keep doing the amusing things I do, eventually they may tip, and tip BIG. I remember how one of the largest and richest PAs on Bria, Left For Dead were seen by us as awful supporters of live entertainers. They fit all the criteria: lot of emphasis on succeeding player versus player encounters, a rather raw demeanor on the boards, and they even kicked us out of the cantina at one of our recent Cantina Crawls.
But all it took was just a couple of sustained efforts to greet LFD at the door, not cast judgement at their choice of buffer, and keeping it immersive and fun to have them say to themselves "hey, this chick is damn fun to be around." And now LFD members are some of my best patrons and tippers!
I agree that many patrons these days give up on the cantina. But I also think we sometimes give up too soon on the patrons. Having players run to the buffbot doesn't take that player out of contention. Not by a long shot. It only means that the buffbot will give the player the buff, but it doesn't mean we won't get the tip. Its really, really easy for the patron not to care about our performance the first time around. But it gets a little less easy not to care the second time they come into the cantina, and we are still greeting them. And by the third time, if everything is still on the level, I can't imagine how players could not at least acknowledge that they like what they see, even if they never /watch.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-18-2004 11:34 AM
kirah_ashlin
Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:11 am
#12
Every player is different and choses different methods of playing the game and gleening what benefits they can out of it. As it's been noted in previous posts, this processhas been discussed before - several times, actually. I'm more inline with Sirii and Salt'ee in that I think it only detracts from our attempts to secure the larger playerbase's understand and sympathy to the plight of Live Entertainers. I believe that you will find most of the ents who reply to your thread are of the same mind, to be honest. I would rather put on a good show than be a buff magnet, personally. I will advertise (without spamming) that I am available for buffs if the situation warrants it (like wheneverone of the resident botsis around . . .) and Roho and I often makea game out of attracting players' attention in spatial if there is a buffbot taking most of the business. However, I have only placed on player on my permenent deny service list and that's because it was a former guildmate who pretended not to see us standing in front of him or waving and saying hi to him as he ran to his precious buffbot (one day after having us buff him in another cantina . . . but that's a different story).
As long as you do it in a way that isn't detrimental to fellow entertainers, do what you feel works for you. Just understand that not everyone will agree with that method.
Ikewe
Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:29 am
#13
I have not verified this but I have been told that when you put some one on your ignore list they get a system message. Obviously that's not the same as "announcing" they are being ignored but it's something to keep in mind. I can understand the frustration and the desire to add those who feel some sense of acomplishment when they belittle us as a profession. I personally choose to just ignore them in my spatial conversations. I don't respond at all and if someone else does come to my defense or the defense of entertainers in general then I'll give them a /thank /deepbow or something similar. Butthe strategy that I am comfortable with is just to continue being a live entertainer. I continue to greet everyone whether they are running to a buff bot or not. If the atmosphere becomes to hostile or I find myself not having fun, then I move on to some where where I will have fun. Does that mean the robots won? Perhaps, but I do this to have fun. If I'm not having fun then I most certainly have lost.
Ikewe,
Master Dancer Shadowfire
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