Dancer Archive
Thread: Can we clean up the Hen house?
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Else-Whira
Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:22 pm
#1
Can we ditch all of the AFK/buff bot drama stickies now? How about throwing up some positive stuff for entertainers instead. This negativity just breeds more hate internally and externally. Most of my entertainer friends hate to post to these forums because of how the community here strikes out at anyone that doesn't agree with them or that doesn't share the sky is falling mentallity.
Some really great and positive stuff is on deck for entertainers. The positive stuff WE did get is being poo poo-ed to death both in the game and here! Here are just a few of things I can think of that were added or fixed so far that deserve to be applauded.
They have stated that entertainers are getting a revamp (a plus!)
They have added new dances (a plus!)
They have fixed registration (a plus!)
They have finally fixed the broken hand drawn flourishes (a plus!)
They added the leia slave girl skirt (something we begged for for months - a plus!)
They have fixed the captivator title (a plus!)
They added a working entertainer quest that is actually pretty damn cool (a plus!)
They changed the skilled dancer title to dazzler (yuck but they did ask us and took the most popular answer so, A plus!)
They let guys go topless (a plus!)
They increased the time needed to give a buff from 15 seconds to two minutes (not my thing but a lot of you thought this was a great idea so, a plus!)
They changed the jedi system and got the hologrinders out of the cantina (a plus!)
Looking at this list.. I don't see a lack of effort, I see a dev staff working hard to bring us some enjoyment!
Some really great and positive stuff is on deck for entertainers. The positive stuff WE did get is being poo poo-ed to death both in the game and here! Here are just a few of things I can think of that were added or fixed so far that deserve to be applauded.
They have stated that entertainers are getting a revamp (a plus!)
They have added new dances (a plus!)
They have fixed registration (a plus!)
They have finally fixed the broken hand drawn flourishes (a plus!)
They added the leia slave girl skirt (something we begged for for months - a plus!)
They have fixed the captivator title (a plus!)
They added a working entertainer quest that is actually pretty damn cool (a plus!)
They changed the skilled dancer title to dazzler (yuck but they did ask us and took the most popular answer so, A plus!)
They let guys go topless (a plus!)
They increased the time needed to give a buff from 15 seconds to two minutes (not my thing but a lot of you thought this was a great idea so, a plus!)
They changed the jedi system and got the hologrinders out of the cantina (a plus!)
Looking at this list.. I don't see a lack of effort, I see a dev staff working hard to bring us some enjoyment!
Doriana
Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:17 am
#2
There have been plenty of positive posts here.
No one enjoys negativity. But for many of us this is the last bastion of sanity to escape AFKers and we are not going to give it up without one heck of a fight.
It is very simple -- people coming here stating their itent and/or support to AFK will 1) be directed to the sticky in an attempt to keep the arguments contained to one thread and 2) will get no help in destroying the profession, regardless of the fact that they will get the information from other sources. The information will not be freely shared here by those of us who actually care about improving the situation for entertainers instead of giving up and letting the professions AFK themselves to death.
I seriously doubt that any of the recent AFK related threads here were started with any intent other than trolling, anyway. It goes through phases. The trolls will get bored and leave again, and we'll go back to being allowed to carry on until we pick up a new troll and start over.
But until the devs finish removing AFK and macro abuse we are just going to have to accept the fact that this is a war zone. I know our side isn't giving up, and if that unfortunately means we have to defend ourselves in our own forum, well...sometimes you have to do things you don't really want to do.
No one enjoys negativity. But for many of us this is the last bastion of sanity to escape AFKers and we are not going to give it up without one heck of a fight.
It is very simple -- people coming here stating their itent and/or support to AFK will 1) be directed to the sticky in an attempt to keep the arguments contained to one thread and 2) will get no help in destroying the profession, regardless of the fact that they will get the information from other sources. The information will not be freely shared here by those of us who actually care about improving the situation for entertainers instead of giving up and letting the professions AFK themselves to death.
I seriously doubt that any of the recent AFK related threads here were started with any intent other than trolling, anyway. It goes through phases. The trolls will get bored and leave again, and we'll go back to being allowed to carry on until we pick up a new troll and start over.
But until the devs finish removing AFK and macro abuse we are just going to have to accept the fact that this is a war zone. I know our side isn't giving up, and if that unfortunately means we have to defend ourselves in our own forum, well...sometimes you have to do things you don't really want to do.
Blamj
Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:29 am
#3
Well the actual reason for guys going topless was not for entertainers... Seriously on Eclipse i am the only real hardcore male entertainer... Well if someone is going to come in here and type "no your not, XXX is always on" well I mean NON-AFK.
Blamj
Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:40 am
#4
Else-Whira wrote:
Can we ditch all of the AFK/buff bot drama stickies now? How about throwing up some positive stuff for entertainers instead. This negativity just breeds more hate internally and externally. Most of my entertainer friends hate to post to these forums because of how the community here strikes out at anyone that doesn't agree with them or that doesn't share the sky is falling mentallity.
Some really great and positive stuff is on deck for entertainers. The positive stuff WE did get is being poo poo-ed to death both in the game and here! Here are just a few of things I can think of that were added or fixed so far that deserve to be applauded.
They have stated that entertainers are getting a revamp (a plus!)
They have added new dances (a plus!)
They have fixed registration (a plus!)
They have finally fixed the broken hand drawn flourishes (a plus!)
They added the leia slave girl skirt (something we begged for for months - a plus!)
They have fixed the captivator title (a plus!)
They added a working entertainer quest that is actually pretty damn cool (a plus!)
They changed the skilled dancer title to dazzler (yuck but they did ask us and took the most popular answer so, A plus!)
They let guys go topless (a plus!)
They increased the time needed to give a buff from 15 seconds to two minutes (not my thing but a lot of you thought this was a great idea so, a plus!)
They changed the jedi system and got the hologrinders out of the cantina (a plus!)
Looking at this list.. I don't see a lack of effort, I see a dev staff working hard to bring us some enjoyment!
Changed the Jedi system was a plus???!???!??? How so... please explain to me.
From my veiw, I see the whole entertainer community ravaged and destroyed by the people who took up dancing by the holocron system and as a result drove out the "pure" entertainers which is a term that I use for pre-grind or ATk entertainers. As a result of the grinders, buff bots were introduced because people were asking for ways to increase their minds. At the moment Entertainer society destroyed itself to what it is currently today. Entertaining these days is done by completly AFK entertainers who are leveling to become buff bots so that they can buff their main accounts or buff other players for sums up to 20k.
The whole jedi system and the new jedi system has completly ruined Entertainment for me and every entertainer.. Well besides Mr. and Mrs. ATK OR AFK buffbot.
rayill
Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:43 am
#5
Yeah, yay for the Jedi Revamp! I mean, we got rid of hordes of people AFKing our professions in five days to replace them with hordes of people permanently AFKing our profession as an easy source of FS XP. Wow! What a great exchange! So now, I can go into cantinas and be not greeted by the same people every time instead of random new people! Thanks for that change! I can't wait to be ignored even more by my so-called fellow entertainers!
~*This message brought to you by the letter S. S if for Sarcasm!*~
rayill
Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:47 am
#6
Not meant to flame you with the above, but I just can't believe you included anything Jedi related as a plus for our professions.
I'll agree that the others were a plus, but most of them were a day late and a penny short, in my opinion. Believe me that when the Devs do first implement a change, especially when it hits Test for Testing, that affects this community in a positive way, there are positive posts on the forums. There hasn't been anything recently - mostly due to the holidays - that has changed positively. So, we are not creating new threads rehashing praise over older issues.
Xyrdre
Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:48 am
#7
Else-Whira wrote:
Can we ditch all of the AFK/buff bot drama stickies now? How about throwing up some positive stuff for entertainers instead. This negativity just breeds more hate internally and externally. Most of my entertainer friends hate to post to these forums because of how the community here strikes out at anyone that doesn't agree with them or that doesn't share the sky is falling mentallity.
As many of the Dancer forum regulars here know, I've been questioning the ongoingusefulness of those old stickied threads, and my initial desire to consider dropping them was very close to what you've said. I don't like having the tone set here immediately as one of War of the Buffbots by having those ugly threads at the top of the sticky area. We do have a lot of positive things we can be looking at, or planning for (revamp... hint hint...), and I considered whether I thought the continued focus of the BotWars being so preeminent was helping or hurting the forum community. And I've been listening to the responses to that notion, both for and against.
Leaving the threads easilyaccessible has been a largely succussful attempt at containment. For those of you unaware, at the time the threadswere created by Panthu our forum was alight with flame wars in about half the existing threads... with no end in sight. The all-purpose sticky succeeded in cleaning up much of the rest of the forum for those who didn't want to get embroiled in the war.
Now, of course, it seems that all that can be said regarding buffbots has been said, ad infinitum. Hence, my additional questioning of the usefulness of those threads.
Things, I think, will continue to be a bit shaky surrounding the AFK/bot issue so long as it's allowed to continue to flourish in game. The simple fact remains that our interdependent functional roles in SWG can, and too-often are, being doled out by unattended characters to the detriment of active players of the entertainer professions. So long as there is a detrimental effect, there will beactive players that arevery upset about it. No one likes to be replaced by a machine. And, sadly, there are those who seem to relish in throwing misfortune into the face of those thus affected. Again... a need for containment.
In short then, we can dislike the negativity as much as I do, and we can tire of the War of the Buffbots, but until something changes in the way AFK, et. al., is handled in the game, the issue is not likely to be going away. I too would like to set a more peaceful tone in the forum here, but at the same time I cannot ignore that the war exists, and the primaryusefulness of those threads at this timeis containment.
I think I'll do an updated FAQ sticky thread here in the next couple of weeks, and move the bot threads into that, so that the threads can still be used to direct those who want to continue with the discussion but will not be the first thing seen when coming to the forum. To make that work, I'll need the help of the Dancer community though, to continue to direct the BotWars discussions into those appropriatethreads.
Else-Whira
Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:03 am
#8
Just look at this thread! See how quick the "regulars" are to snap out with negativity? Can we please just stop coddling the negative attitude and the constant "our profession is ruined!!" mindset?
Our profession is NOT ruined! Yes, buff bots suck, yes there is some room for improvement in dancer but it is not ruined! I can still login and have as much fun with dancer now as I did in June of '03! In fact there is MORE to do now than there was then! You aren't teaching new entertainers how great the profession can be by instantly anouncing that the profession sucks.
Instead of chasing off the people that come here asking for help learning the profession, one starring every post they have ever made or calling them profession wreckers how about just giving them some help. Show them a better way (if you honestly have one). The negative mindset is what is really killing the game for me. Not the jerks with spammy macros or buff bots giving away healing and mind buffs.
Our profession is NOT ruined! Yes, buff bots suck, yes there is some room for improvement in dancer but it is not ruined! I can still login and have as much fun with dancer now as I did in June of '03! In fact there is MORE to do now than there was then! You aren't teaching new entertainers how great the profession can be by instantly anouncing that the profession sucks.
Instead of chasing off the people that come here asking for help learning the profession, one starring every post they have ever made or calling them profession wreckers how about just giving them some help. Show them a better way (if you honestly have one). The negative mindset is what is really killing the game for me. Not the jerks with spammy macros or buff bots giving away healing and mind buffs.
lekkuboogie
Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:43 pm
#9
My forum login is relatively new, but I have played a dancer continuously since launch.
I've changed servers a time or two, when the one my original dancer was on got flooded by AFKers and bots.
I understand all the frustrations, I have felt them.
I TOTALLY agree with the 'bring forth positives' attitude. It (or profession)will get changed or fixed when it does, and until then, I intend to make my own fun, and I do!
Until we get the sorts of changes we sorely need (and do deserve) as a profession...just seek out the fun, and help to create it. Positive attitudes can be contageous! When in game, go all out to make a live entertainer something fun and special for another player to encounter...it's going to make a difference in the long haul, on attitudes and climate for us all
There is too much to love about entertaining, no other game has anywhere close to the sort of rp character we can enjoy here!
Einhinder
Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:22 pm
#10
wow chill ya i agree to a point some of the regulaers on this board xn be cliqish and non welcoming to outsiders however the only new people to the board there even anywhere near rremotley rude or mean to are those comming looking for macroes to afk and a majority of those has sigs touting 4 master charecters so it goesa to say there probably making a buffbott and most of the time they eithet ignore thme or direct them to the faq sticky and no we cannot fet rif off all afk talk it is a veryp revelent dancer issue wether or not you think so and no matter how many times its all been said untill its gone we have the right to discuss debate argure over it.
Else-Whira wrote:
Just look at this thread! See how quick the "regulars" are to snap out with negativity? Can we please just stop coddling the negative attitude and the constant "our profession is ruined!!" mindset?
Our profession is NOT ruined! Yes, buff bots suck, yes there is some room for improvement in dancer but it is not ruined! I can still login and have as much fun with dancer now as I did in June of '03! In fact there is MORE to do now than there was then! You aren't teaching new entertainers how great the profession can be by instantly anouncing that the profession sucks.
Instead of chasing off the people that come here asking for help learning the profession, one starring every post they have ever made or calling them profession wreckers how about just giving them some help. Show them a better way (if you honestly have one). The negative mindset is what is really killing the game for me. Not the jerks with spammy macros or buff bots giving away healing and mind buffs.
AudioOrgana
Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:17 am
#11
Xyrdre wrote:
In short then, we can dislike the negativity as much as I do, and we can tire of the War of the Buffbots, but until something changes in the way AFK, et. al., is handled in the game, the issue is not likely to be going away. I too would like to set a more peaceful tone in the forum here, but at the same time I cannot ignore that the war exists, and the primaryusefulness of those threads at this timeis containment.
The thing is...the Devs seem quite clear that it IS allowed and is not a problem.
Posts from TH aside (I'm sorry, but when has he ever been a very reliable source of information?) the actual Devs that work on this game seem to think it's fine. Go to the Knowledge Base and look up AFK - it not only expressly says it is totally allowed, but it uses entertaining macros as an example! If that's not endorsement, I don't know what is. (Except it lies to you and says once a macro - they use a 30 minute entertainer one as an example - is started it cannot be stopped; it doesn't mention /dump.)
Sure, TH has mentioned it, and I believe if you dig deep enough you could find a one-line quote or two that says "yeah buff bots suck" from another red-name, but obviously they are in no hurry to do anything about it. If you remember correctly, TH's "Unattended Macroing Is Going Away" posting was made just a DAY after they announced the Combat Balance was delayed until after JTL. That was many months ago - heard anything since? I haven't. It was nothing but a concept that TH threw out there to quiet the masses and rally the base. It would be very simple - MAKE you be ATK to perform dance moves - you have to click on a box to continue, etc. If it really was such a devestating problem, they would have done a "quick fix" like that long ago.
I was a Master Dancer once upon a time, and I became one again a month or two ago. I've had a fabulous time being ATK entertaining, and I do everything I can to support those who do not play AFK.So I come to this forum to try and get the skinny on buffing people, because back when I was a Dancer there was no such thing. I had to wade through hundreds of posts in here that are nothing more than people saying "We don't like the core of how this profession works" when it is abundantly clear it's intentional at this point. There is precious actual information about the dancing profession in this forum - it's all about hating how a certain group of people choose to survive in the game. I had to discover about the NEW dancer quests all by myself - the signal to noise ratio here is SO very high. Those quests are GREAT content - I've scarcely had so much fun in SWG!
There is this core group of people who simply do not like the implementation of Entertainer. I find that I am highly valuable as a ATK master dancer - I ignore the buffbots. It's simply a fact of life, there aren't enough ATK entertainers to serve everyone on all planets, so people invent bots to do it for them. If there were ATK dancers reliably in places like Lok, Dantooine, or Dathomir - it would be different - but there aren't.
I'm afraid people waiting for this "golden age" of Entertaining when you have to be ATK are in for a long, long wait. I may be wrong - hey, they may announce it tomorrow - but I don't think the Devs see it as their best interest. The amounts of players negatively affected (who can't get healing/buffs unless they go to Cnet where the few ATK dancers are) far outweighs the very vocal few who choose this profession and don't like how others play it.
I'm sure I'll be branded a troll for this post, but I simply am trying to have a realistic view of the matter. I know what it's like to be "broken" - I have been a DE since launch - but I also know when you have to just suck it up and realize this is how the game is and you either enjoy the profession, or don't. I say rise above it - make yourself valuable, make yourself more attractive than a buff-bot. Even in the darkest days of DE, I never saw such vitriol and repetative complaint as I have in some posts in this forum. Yes, we know some of you hate it - but so many people depend on those bots who would be left high and dry without them. Hopefully this will change in the combat balance - but I wouldn't hold my breath.
AO
Blamj
Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:46 am
#12
Well I wasn't made quiet, I am angry and I want changes for this profession
kirah_ashlin
Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:08 am
#13
What the devs have *added* (read fixed) recently has done little to boost my game enjoyment (note - giving me a quest for a broken danceand ruining a dance I used tolike -Footloose -is not my idea of a plus). These are things that should have been taken care of a long time ago, and there are plenty of broken items and actions that still need immediate addressing before I'll stand up and cheer for what SOE is doing for my gaming pleasure.
What I find positive about this game is what I (and my ingame friends) make of it. I don't let the buffbots get me down. I *try* not to let the negativity I get from fellow city residents and chat members get me *too* upset. I create my own content and jump on board when others do so.
It's all of you *points finger in a broad circle around the forum* who help make this game worth the time, money and effort for me.
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