Dancer Archive
Thread: We have met the enemy and they are US. Back to our Roots.
Page 1 of 3
IrinaStarsinger
Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:05 am
#1
Im gonna say somethings that may upset some people, but I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple days and I think I'm finally seeing something that's been right in front of me for a while but thatI was too blind to see.
What is our Profession?
Are we BF healers and buffers or are we Entertainers?
THAT question lies at the root of our current dilemna. It was really prompted by the Startport Jam last week. We went enmasse to Dantooine and we danced and played for hours. OURside so no one was buffoing and no one was BF healing. But know what? The peopel there LOVED it.. And a lot of us got tips. No not as much as a few hours of ID work.. But we were tipped for ENTERTAINING people, not for buffing and not for BF healing...
In looking through the messages here what two issue predominate? Buffbots and AFK Performers.
My question is..... WHY?
Is Buffing and BF healing why we took up Entertaining?? Maybe for some of us it was... ButI was a Dancer LONG before buffs came along. And BF healing?? Thats not something I even THINK about since its a Passive function totally unrelated to what I do as a Dancer.
I'm an Entertainer. I distract people. I capture their attention. I engage their minds. I make them laugh and relax. I make them feel good about life and about themselves and about that moment in time. I keep them standing or sitting there in front of me and forget about that mission they were about to go on until they suddenly realize they been there with me for a long, long time and enjoyed every minute of it.
THATs why I took up Dance.. NOT to buff people. Not to heal their BF.. But to ENTERTAIN them.
I wont go into the buffbot or AFk issue except to say that its clear to me now that SOE endorses and approves of buffbots. That's too clear to dispute when buffbots are ignored and Squad leaders are suspended for spamming, when buffbots are awarded badges clearly showing the SOE mindset and when our questions and pleas are ignored totally.
So lets QUIT fighting the wrong enemy. We DONT exist to give buffs and heal BF. We EXIST as a profession, if we want to exist at all, as Entertainers. If we Abandon our goal to BE Entertainers then I have to agree that the entire Profession should be dropped form the game.
And to those that yell at me that buffs are what help us make our living.... well as for ME.... I'M a good enough entertainer that I will make MY tips by Entertaining. If I cant make enough then its MY skill as an entertainer thats at fault. Its MY skill as an entertainer that needs to be looked at.
The time's come to STOP blaming our problems on buffbots and AFK performers and start looking at where the problem REALLY lies... We've STOPPED entertaining people and replaced that with shrill cries to ban buffbots and AFK performers. We're fighting the wrong enemy people!!!!!
We dont HAVE to stay in the Cantinas. By forgetting about BF healing and buffs, that frees us to perform ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we want to.
As for me... I'm abandining the Cantinas for the most part. Im going to ENTERTAIN. Wherever I happen to be and wherever I happen to find an audience I think might enjoy it.
Its not the buffbots you have to compete with for tips.... Its ME.
Cause I'm an Entertainer!
Wendelius
Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:41 am
#2
Good post and I mostly agree. When entertainers are only buffers and BF healers, it's no wonder that they are seen as little different from NPC's and a necessary evil for players on their way to more "exciting" things.
That being said, we are not here only to entertain. We also offer a useful service to our fellow players. While we entertain them, they feel better and forget their fatigue (heal BF). They also leave us more resolute and ready to face their challenges (mind buff). It's a pity that those 2 aspects tend to be seen as the be all and all of entertainers though. But if all the entertainers were to perform outside exclusively, one important function of the game wouldn't be performed anymore.
So we have a role. As far as I'm concerned, that role is a byproduct of me entertaining people and having fun playing music or dancing in cantinas. I'd like to think that said players also come out more ready to go on a hunt because they relaxed and had fun for a while with us. If they get a game mechanic benefit out of it, that's obviously great. But while I'm doing this, I'm thinking only of my entertainer role. For some players, this whole entertainment business doesn't amuse them and they tune out as soon as they start listening or watching. Fair enough.
Besides, as you no doubt well know, buffbots and AFK'ers are not only the ennemy because of their "killstealing" playstyle towards other entertainers but because of what they do to the places they perform in. How often have you heard "tips please!", "heal me", "I will accept your invite in 10 seconds", me, me, me, ... This is also reflected by the way some of those non active players take up center stage and really spoil the place. You can tune out most of it but the audience doesn't always and it certainly has a detrimental aspect on the atmosphere you're trying to create as an entertainer.
Entertainment tips might be enough for some of us but others do rely on the additional income of buffing. We all have different lifestyles to maintain. Also, healing BF is part of the path to mastery. So whether we think it a byproduct or not, we will actively seek out people to heal while we progress.
But it doesn't invalidate your premise. We entertainers should work at entertaining people. Entertaining is not a function of how many flourishes you can invoke in a minute. Maybe we can convert more and more players to enjoy the time they spend in the cantina. We can be our own ennemy, true. But don't dismiss the damage done by others.
I'm encouraged by the fact that most of my recent nights spent on Bria and Chilastra have been spent with people who enjoy their role as entertainer and spread the joy to their audience.
That being said, we are not here only to entertain. We also offer a useful service to our fellow players. While we entertain them, they feel better and forget their fatigue (heal BF). They also leave us more resolute and ready to face their challenges (mind buff). It's a pity that those 2 aspects tend to be seen as the be all and all of entertainers though. But if all the entertainers were to perform outside exclusively, one important function of the game wouldn't be performed anymore.
So we have a role. As far as I'm concerned, that role is a byproduct of me entertaining people and having fun playing music or dancing in cantinas. I'd like to think that said players also come out more ready to go on a hunt because they relaxed and had fun for a while with us. If they get a game mechanic benefit out of it, that's obviously great. But while I'm doing this, I'm thinking only of my entertainer role. For some players, this whole entertainment business doesn't amuse them and they tune out as soon as they start listening or watching. Fair enough.
Besides, as you no doubt well know, buffbots and AFK'ers are not only the ennemy because of their "killstealing" playstyle towards other entertainers but because of what they do to the places they perform in. How often have you heard "tips please!", "heal me", "I will accept your invite in 10 seconds", me, me, me, ... This is also reflected by the way some of those non active players take up center stage and really spoil the place. You can tune out most of it but the audience doesn't always and it certainly has a detrimental aspect on the atmosphere you're trying to create as an entertainer.
Entertainment tips might be enough for some of us but others do rely on the additional income of buffing. We all have different lifestyles to maintain. Also, healing BF is part of the path to mastery. So whether we think it a byproduct or not, we will actively seek out people to heal while we progress.
But it doesn't invalidate your premise. We entertainers should work at entertaining people. Entertaining is not a function of how many flourishes you can invoke in a minute. Maybe we can convert more and more players to enjoy the time they spend in the cantina. We can be our own ennemy, true. But don't dismiss the damage done by others.
I'm encouraged by the fact that most of my recent nights spent on Bria and Chilastra have been spent with people who enjoy their role as entertainer and spread the joy to their audience.
IrinaStarsinger
Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:54 am
#3
But you miss ONE essential point... The Buffbots and AFK BF healers have ONE limitation that hey cant overcome.. THEY are chained to the cantinas... As an Entertainer... I'm NOT... I can entertain ANYWHERE I find people.
That gives ME an advantage over them that THEY can overcome and with which they cannot compete. So let them have the cantinas... That limits THEM to a tiny area from which they cannot stray... I can perform anywhere. And I'm Going to.
As far as money. Few of us.. even in the old days relied totally on Dancing or Playing to finance our life. I do ID.. Back then I also did surveying and sold resource WPs to people who wanted to set up harvs to save them the surveying time. At other timesI ran missions and gathered hides. I did lots of things just like moss entertainers in r/l do.
In that other world we have to live in when we're not here few entertainers can entertain full time. Only a fortunate few. Most susidize their entertaining by washing dishes or woking in stop and robs... My wife Cailet... in /rl she's a singer and right now is in Seattle performing.. But she makes her Other living teaching programming. She's STILL an entertainer. Years ago I used to Dance Disco Competitively. I DIDNT make my living at it but I won a lot of trophies.
Saying you cant make a Living as an entertainer without buffing is begging the question...
Do you practice Dance or Music to make a Living or do you do it becasue you Love Entertaining?
If its the former.. then you should become an Architect or Tailor.. If its the latter, then the question is meaningless in the first place.
Panthu
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:09 am
#4
Euclase, you can do what you are describing with out any investment in the Entertainer or Dancer tree. You can do this version of "entertaining" with the /dance emote.
At the very least, there is no reason for you to be a Master Dancer in this game. I have a few chars I play this way too, they are Dancer Dabblers and tend to mostly go up the Knowledge line for the Dances. *shrug*
Wendelius
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:10 am
#5
IrinaStarsinger wrote:Saying you cant make a Living as an entertainer without buffing is begging the question...Do you practice Dance or Music to make a Living or do you do it becasue you Love Entertaining?If its the former.. then you should become an Architect or Tailor.. If its the latter, then the question is meaningless in the first place.
It's a fair question. I've danced and played music with you and I know we're both firmly in the "Love Entertaining" camp.
But this shouldn't make us dismiss the trouble of those who love entertaining and, because of abuse of the game, can't support themselves as well doing only that as they should. Sure we expect needing some sort of additional income (although, this being a game, let's not go as far as introducing dishwashing as a profession
). But the more one is deprived of generating income while entertaining (which is the thing that person really cares about), the more one must spend time not entertaining. You see, income made out of buffing or healing BF is not a bad thing is the entertainer fancies giving those services. Because the entertainer is still performing while doing this.That's why I said I agree with your premise but think that it's a bit dismissive saying that the problem is us and that we shouldn't be so concerned with AFK'ers and buffbots. They do damage aspects of the profession, even if I totally agree that we have the advantage of being able to take the entertaining aspect of us anywhere we go.
Would I personally mind if buffs were taken out as discussed in your other thread? Not one tiny bit. BF I don't mind because it brings people in and it's a passive thing. They get healed while I do my thing and try to get their attention and entertain them. It's stress free.
So we aren't really at odd: More entertaining and less worrying about game mechanics! But let's not think that ignoring buffbots and AFKers is a solution to their detrimental effects on the profession and how other players perceive us.
[EDIT: Clarified a messy sentence]
Message Edited by Wendelius on 07-29-2004 12:13 PM
IrinaStarsinger
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:31 am
#6
You said....
'But let's not think that ignoring buffbots and AFKers is a solution to their detrimental effects on the profession and how other players perceive us.'
To WHICH Profession?? To the BUFFING Profession or the Entertainer Profession??
If you want to be a Buffer, then take up Doctor. Cailet (Master Doctor) can make a million in a day easily doing Buffs on Dantooine. We've never reached that level and we're never going to. So trying to categorize us as Buffers is disingenuous at best and ignores the real issue.
As far as Fighting Buffbots and AFK Dancers. THAT'S where we're shooting ourselves in the foot and blindly ignoring the real issue there. Its NOT griefing players that are the cause of the Buffbots and AFK Dancers. SOE has set up the mechanism for them. SOE encourages them. SOE endorses them. SOE is silent to our questions and arguments about them.
Don't you see it?? If the buffbot and afk phenomenon is the problem then the buffbots and AFK entertainers are not our enemies. SOE is... Do we reallyw ant to make an enemy of the very people on whom we depend?
We've somehow lost our focus and become nothing but competitors for buffbots and AFK BF healers. Is THAT how we see our Profession? is THAT what the entertainment Professions are all about?
Thats why all the bands have disappeared. We've become SO focussed on Buffing and BF healing that we've forgotten what we ARE..... Entertainers.
We keep trying to get SOE to change the rules so we can fit into a definition of our Profession that seems to have been imposed on us.
Instead let REDEFINE our Profession ourselves. If SOE doesnt care about buffbots and AFK BF healers, then lets seperate OUR Profession from them.
We CAN'T stop them and SOE wont. So forget about them. REDEFINE our profession back to what it once WAS... ENTERTAINER.
Quite trying to compete with something that has the blessing of SOE because we CAN'T compete with that.
Theres an old saying... Give me the strength to change the things I can change, the patience to accept those thingsI can't change and the Wisdom to know the difference.
We can cry and moan and beat our chests and let out shrill dries from now till doomsday trying to get a small minority of players to change the decisions at SOE. OR.. we can redefine our Profession in a way that makes us somethnin special.
We can sit around and complain and wait for SOE to Rescue us.. to Empower us. To GIVE us something that we dont have the gumption to create for ourselves..... a ROLE in SWG.
The choice is ours.
I've made mine.
Amida_Enterprises
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:43 am
#7
hehe, the ppl that know me know I dance for the heck of it, and that credits for me personally ain't all that important..
I've left most cantinas now because of the AFK'ers and buffbots ruining not my business but my professional enjoyment
I dance and play music but I do it on starports waiting for the ship, or just pull out my droid and do a concerto in the middle of the street, or meet with my friends and we go all crazy in the market square or at scenic points, dancing under a waterfall or something..
I've come to live with it that the 'management' endorses and supports this really big detriment and decided to dance on my terms and entertain when I feel like it, where I feel like it..
The thing is that I have a luxury that most starting entertainers do not have, they are forced to stick it out and live with it, even though their atmosphere has gone challenger on us all because of those problems. left without a means of income and faced with a growing indifference to live entertainment they get treated like dirt or worse..
that said, I applaud every real ATK entertainer still around.. gypsys, ents, e-u's.. and the whole score of people not in an association but enjoying their profession the way it was meant to be enjoyed, and the people taking the time and effort to make dance vids and stuff.. they are the reason I like this profession so much, no matter the diseases or downsides
)
Panthu
Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:57 am
#8
IrinaStarsinger wrote:
I'm an Cyberer. I distract people. I capture their attention. I engage their minds. I make them laugh and relax. I make them feel good about life and about themselves and about that moment in time. I keep them standing or sitting there in front of me and forget about that mission they were about to go on until they suddenly realize they been there with me for a long, long time and enjoyed every minute of it.
I'm sorry, it reads the same and is equally true. Not saying that you necessarily do this, just that it's effectively the same thing as far as "end results."
I wasn't happy with the "red light district" we almost had as a City Specialization either... please note that "Red Light" was replaced with "Entertainment" in wording, but the mechanics did not change at all.
On a personal level as a rl female and gamer, I don't like the idea of me paying to be a prostitute. I could do cyber for no skill point investment and actually get paid for it if that was something I was interested in.
I'm a huge flirt irl and in game, but that doesn't make a Profession. Game Mechanics matter in any discussion on how a Profession should operate in the game. Skill Point Investment should directly meet some kind of game pay out. That is a basic gaming concept, what you put in should show you some kind of personal reward.
What you choose to do with your character, your game time,and your template is your decision... but please don't try to guilt the very large number of Dancers that want this Game Profession to make some sense in Gaming Terms.
Goldy_Lhim
Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:11 am
#9
IrinaStarsinger wrote:
What is our Profession?
Are we BF healers and buffers or are we Entertainers?
I can't speak for everyone but I'm going to say that I am all of the above. I buff, I heal and I entertain (all while chewing gum!). I can do them all at the same time. Sure you can separate them from each other but I see them as a complete package of why I chose dancer.
AFK = Healer/Buffer (I might add spammer 
Outside Entertainer = Entertainer
Live ATK Dancer in a Cantina = Healer/Buffer/Entertainer
I'm usually found in a cantina because that's where I maximize my usefulness to all parties involved. Sure I dance at remote locations, its fun to leave the cantina and have some fun. Its refreshing. In the cantina I can do it all. I entertain with my chat and usually make-believe stories that get customers involved (I was pretending to be a pirate of the SS Cantina the other night, last night I was pretending to be the mother of all Twi'leks on Naboo). People stay to hear what I say next.
a Entertaining
While chatting anyone choosing to watch me is able to get a heal. I don't charge for healing, I don't even know who's healing they just get that from chosing to /watch me.
a Healing
If someone asks for a mind buff, darn tootin I'm going to give it to him. I don't charge a lot and if I'm having a good time I don't even ask for cash, many times my customers have heard "I'm havign a great time with you folks tonight, buff is free. Enjoy!" I'm usually in the wide open part of the cantina, not a door cruncher. He had to pass a lot of AFK folks to find me and that he chose me over an AFK dancer is reason enough for me to give him a buff. This can be done in the background, not even stopping my flow of entertaining.
a Buffer
See! I'm not being my own worst enemy, I'm being an entertainer the way (I think) it was designed to be played. I'm sure I lose a lot of customers to buff bots, doesn't make me happy but it happens. I like to think that I've also gotten people used to seeing me in Theed and knowing I'm an alternative to Sally AFKPants.
Not buffing is completely your choice of course. This little twi'lek will continue to combat buff bots by making myself available for healing and buffing as often as possible. So long as there's someone to talk to in the cantina, I'm there! If ignored long enough I usually take off and find some other thing to do.
IrinaStarsinger
Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:16 am
#10
Panthu said...
'On a personal level as a rl female and gamer, I don't like the idea of me paying to be a prostitute. I could do cyber for no skill point investment and actually get paid for it if that was something I was interested in. '
--------------------------------------------------
Where in the WORLD did that come from love???? I dont know what I said that gave you that kind of impression but I looked back and I dont see anywhere thatI said anything you could Possibly have gotten that impression from...
I'm a Dancer. I Dance and I entertain. How you got Prostitution from Entertaining I have NO earthly idea. lol
Thats a leap of logic I can't fathom. And quite frankly its rather insulting. lol
I dont HAVE to be a prostitute to make a living. I easily make 550k to 700k a day just doing a few hours of ID. That more than supports my lifestyle.
I Dance and Entertain. I do it verbally because lets face it. We have a limited number of dance moves we can do and once you've seen them for a while they get kind of old. What Doesn't get old is engaging peoples minds. What we can do verbally, talking and chatting iwth people is milited only by our imaginations and our interpersonal skills.
If all Dancing offered as a Profession was Buffing and BF healing it would be a pretty sorry Profession. And maybe thats the mistake a lot of people have made. Thinking that the Entertainer profession ARE about buffing and bf healing.
To me its a Social Profession. One that requires a lively and creative mind. One that's challenging and new every day. One thats more than kicking off a macro and hoping the dice roll in your favor. More than seeing what your opponent is and then checking the forums for the best combat move to counter THEIR combat move.
Entertaining is Hard. Its work. Its frustrating at times and its a learning experience Every single time.
THAT'S why I play SWG.
Lets the buffbots and AFK healers have the cantinas. I Dont need em.
p.s. And for what its worth.. my husband is convinced I'm female. So are my kids and my OB/Gyn. If I'm a guy.. then I'm the best darn actor you've ever met or are Likely to meet. lol
Drygo
Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:24 am
#11
I strongly, strongly, STRONGLY disagree with what you are saying here. First of all, you're blaming the victimand I take great issue with that. Second of all, you are right that we are entertainers first and foremost. But, you're ignoring the fact that the devs gave us one tool that is needed and greatly wanted by the masses for the purposes of including us into the economic interdependency of SWG, and that is buffing.
I have always maintained that I have had no problem whatsoever with entertaining, have been given many tools, which WORK, in order to do so, and have been successful at doing so. That part of our profession is great. But, I also want, and feel that we need to be included in the overall economic interdependency that the devs envisioned for the game. We do this by healing and buffing. Yes, we all know by now, that I'm leaving. But, that doesn't stop the fact that we deserve something like this, just like every single profession. As I've told Sirii, who seems to have the same viewpoint that you do on this, that it's great that you get all the enjoyment you need from entertaining, and great that others also get this enjoyment. But, the reason I dance goes beyond entertaining. And, nobody can *ever* accuse me of not being an entertainer first and foremost. But, I would *not* be entertaining if I didn't have that economic *place* within SWG. Obviously, I feel like I no longer have that...which is why I'm leaving.
So just because you personally could care less about buffing and healing, don't take that away from others. It's important part of who we are for a lot of people. And, actually, it's kind of insulting to insinuate that we are the ones causing our problems when that is *clearly* not the case. And, we should *never* be *required* to take up a profession that we don't want to play for the sake of making credits. It's the exact same argument that the uber fighters use when they tell us to "grow up, stop watching your toon dance, and get a *real* profession." It's insulting and it shouldn't have to be that way. If all we want to do is dance and make music, then who are you or anybody else to say that we shouldn't be able to make a decent living off of it?
Message Edited by Drygo on 07-29-2004 05:25 AM
Panthu
Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:38 am
#12
IrinaStarsinger wrote:
Panthu said...
Where in the WORLD did that come from love???? I dont know what I said that gave you that kind of impression but I looked back and I dont see anywhere thatI said anything you could Possibly have gotten that impression from...
Oh, I guess from your description of what Entertaining means... sounds pretty much exactly like the same reasoning for calling a City Specialization that deals with the Game Mechanic of Ent Healing a "Red Light District." The city specialization does not actually make a Dancer any more visually pleasing or interesting to watch in game... the name suggested a certain type of RP though the game mechanic function was purely healing.
What part are you missing about what we are left with if you take away the healing and buffing? We don't even have any real Dance Tools yet! We don't even have any props yet! We have nothing artsy and creative beyond the Player Made Never Intended tools of mixing!
p.s. And for what its worth.. my husband is convinced I'm female. So are my kids and my OB/Gyn. If I'm a guy.. then I'm the best darn actor you've ever met or are Likely to meet. lol
Wow, woot for ovaries. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the RL counterparts in RL Red Light Districts have them too just like us.
IrinaStarsinger
Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:48 am
#13
The Devs giveth and the Devs taketh away...
Deserve??? Required to take up a profession??
No one DESERVES to make a living. No one is REQUIRED to take up a Profession to make money.
YOU choose to work for money becasue you WANT things that take money to get. You cant Starve to death in SWG. You can't Die from exposure to the elements. You can sit in front of the starport from the moment the server comes up until it goes down and not do ANYTHING and you wont die or suffer.
The WORST that can happen if you dont make money is that you get bored or you cant buy the thigns you want.
NO ONE owes you a living. No one OWES you money. You dont have a RIGHT or an ENTITLEMENT to a job and a Profession.
You CHOOSE to live in SWG. The Rules are what they are. If you're not happy with it then leave as so many others have.
OR... accept the world as it IS and make the most of it. Quit whining for someone to come Rescue you. Freedom is not GIVEN... its Taken.
Be a Victim is you choose to. I REFUSE the label of Victim. I will not BE a victim. But if we're gonna fight for a place in SWG lets fight the RIGHT battle.
Page 1 of 3