Creature Handler Archive
Thread: CU Observations: The good, the bad, and the ugly
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Galacium
Mon May 02, 2005 9:28 am
#1
I've been looking for others posting about thier observations on CH after the CU, but mostly I've just found folks whining about not getting attention, or that they now suck. I wanted a thread that just has facts and observations so we can make the best of things. So, lets keep this informative rather than rantish please.
The Good
1. When you group, all the members of the group get a Combat level equal to the highest in the group. You can use this to either raise your own combat level, or raise the combat level of your pets. This could grant you access to better equipment (70 max I suppose) or raise lower level so they are more on par with higher level mobs. I havn't done a lot of testing but it appears to work this way. I'd say this means its often better to run 3 level 23 pets than 1 very large pet. <plus a good droid and faction NPC for the full CH army>
2. MCH grants you a combat level of 54 (or so) which means you get access to a number of decent weapons. Rifles seem to be the way to go for best DPS without any other professions. It also lets you use good stim packs wihout any medical professions levels, and some measure of inate defense.
3. MCH gives you full access to any battle armor (Bone, Padded, and RIS) All 3 seem to be pretty good now. <I got mine by converting composite suits> Bone armor is very CH looking.
4. My pet animations seem smoother and more realistic looking <no game benefit but I like it>
5. Many more creatures seem to be tameable now, almost everything under level 70 <something folks have been requisting for some time now>
6. We seem to be much stronger in PVP. I took a set of 3 cats, pluss a droid, grouped and dueled a root and scoot BH player. He took down only one cat before dropping. I just stood there, didn't heal the pets or attack myself. He wasn't attacking me either as we just wanted to see pets vs player. Against a single high level pet, he crushed it by rooting and shooting, but that tactic was pretty useless agaisnt the mob, and the low level pets did nearly as much damage individualy as the high level pet, and much more collectively.
7. Pet health regenerates quickly. They didn't regenerate at all before. Now you can watch their health bar's quickly fill up after a battle. I realy like this change as it mostly eliminates the need for using stim packs between fights.
The Bad
1. BE pets are totaly borked. Most of them will re-spec to be level 200+ and thus unuseable. If you average their stats, they work fine, but arn't very special any more. BE's can not reliably make pets at the moment either.
2. Pet specials are MIA. Ranged attacks are working but thats it. The commands don't work and pets don't do them on their own either.
3. Pet's arn't following as well as they used to. I have a hard time keeping a group of pets trained on me, and it was rarely a problem pre CU. They seem to like chasing whatever I have targeted, and sometimes just stand around stupidly. While it does seem more realistic it's very anoying.
4. Pet's are not as good at tanking in the sense that they hold the MOBs attention. If you hit harder than your pets the MOB is likely to come and attack you. This seemed rare pre CU and quite common now. There may be some tricks that will help with this as it seems to be directly related to how much damage you do vs the pets.
5. XP is definately harder to come by now in casual play
The Ugly
1. Rare's seem less rare. Some folks always wanted this, some hate it. <I like rare rares myself>
2. All pets are pretty much the same by level. No specials, and no visible armor differences mean that all pets are pretty much the same stat wise. For people that hated BE pets being superior this could be a good thing, for those that liked the custom pets its a bad thing. <bad thing in my book>
3. Damage. It's very different than it used to be. In PVP pets do much more damage than they did before because armor and buffs are so nerfed. A set of 3 pets does damage comperable to an elete profession (from what Ive seen so far). In PVE they hit for simmilar ammounts, but due to the lower health pools of monsters, they are much faster at actualy killing things. Pre CU my pets would have a hard time actualy killing a higher level MOB, now they can do it on their own. On the other hand, they don't seem to tank as well, in the sense that just as they can kill MOBs faster, the MOBs can kill them faster as well. It seems more even than it used to be. THe difference in damage from low level pets to high level pets is much smaller. This is because damage is nowpartly tied into creature level. But, because when grouping you can raise the level of your pets, the low level ones do almost as much damage as the high level ones. <For me, I like the new way damage is working, as my pets are more of a weapon than they used to be, and a bit less of just a meat shield, what I'd realy like to see is different pets, some good for tanking, others for killing>
4. CL1/(0) pets are still as broken as they ever were. If you don't mind using them, then its an advantage, if you hate others using them, its a problem. <it amazes me these continue un-fixed. indeed its like they exist in a seperate database as thier HAM and damage values are unchanged from their old stats even under the new system.>
Summation
I truly think CH is a stronger class than it was pre CU. We hit much harder than before and get more built in defenses. On the down side, our critters are less durable. Because of the way grouping works, I think running multiple pets is much much stronger than running a single large pet, and using a droid and faction NPC in addition to our pets is a good way to extend that advantage. Were much more viable as a single class now. I still think rifleman is probably the best paired class for us. (I'm currently MCH, Master Marksman, with a little (Pistoleer, BH, Rifle,FS skills, Medic); mostly due to what respec points I had available). If we can get pet specials back in some form, that would be a big help. I'd like to see pets more diverse again as well.
Please add to these lists if you have further opinions, advice or observations.
menyou
Mon May 02, 2005 9:40 am
#2
Very nice summary, be interesting to see a MCH/MBH combo go after a Jedi.
I noticed that packs of pets work well in PvE, was running a 39 and 18 vs CL55 voritors ( I'm CL62 so a bit low level but I'm pretty sure CL62 mobs would give similar results ) with a good deal of success (I'm 2400 carbineer too - I respecced MCarbineer to finish off CH - and damned glad I did ).
I noticed that packs of pets work well in PvE, was running a 39 and 18 vs CL55 voritors ( I'm CL62 so a bit low level but I'm pretty sure CL62 mobs would give similar results ) with a good deal of success (I'm 2400 carbineer too - I respecced MCarbineer to finish off CH - and damned glad I did ).
velm
Mon May 02, 2005 9:55 am
#3
The BAD:
You left out where the pets will just stand there sometimes. Rather annoying.
The Good:
I did notice something interesting, I had a prowing gurreck out and he was the not the rabid half starved beast he was before the CU. He followed me around without attacking everything in sight. But, he did suffer from the 'just gonna stand there and look around after a fight' thing, as I mentioned in the 'the BAD.'
dcbobo
Mon May 02, 2005 10:18 am
#4
Hi Galacium.
OK for pet tanking, I'm not having any problems. I hope I explain this well....i'll try. Ok, I use pet to pull the mob, I don't start engaging it with powerfull health atttacks. I "debuff" the mob while the creature is tanking. Like snare, slow regen, bling, armor reduce, those kinda of things. Then I start high health attacks, while still keeping pets pet debuffed as needed. Pets seem to hold the mob nicely and and with the new pet regen, they ready to go again quickly. I still use stims to help them regen, as it makes me even more effective.
You should be getting really good xp. I am, and my friend who is a master dancer, not sure what her CH is is, like 3/3/3/3 maybe 4 in something or 2 in something. And dabbles in pistols is killing things like 5-10 levels above her that are red. She's happy with CU I imagine 
With the double xp this week, you should be getting incredible xp. I've gotten more creature handler xp in one kill with CU than with a whole lair pre-CU. XP is given way better now, and how getting CH xp isn't in your "the good" category, is well, confusing to me.
I don't understand some of your other things as well, maybe I haven't experienced them yet or maybe you haven't quite got the hang of things yet. But it looks like you put some good thought into your post, well done. Keep sharing. CH are way more effective and i've yet to find a true downside to the CU with them now.
Galacium
Mon May 02, 2005 1:05 pm
#5
More Conclusions
So it sounds like to get pets to tank well, you need to ease up on the player damage for the first few seconds. That is similar to many other games, and good to know. Also using root and knock downs if you have them should help.
I know that XP is passed on NPC level with each difference in PC level from NPC level varying the result by +/- 10%.
So, the higher the NPC the more the base, but if you are over its level by a significant ammount you will not get much of anything, and if you are under its level by a fair amount you can get a big bonus.
Some questions to answer would be...
Does it use the pet's level or the players level now to determine XP?
When you group all levels are set to the single highest in group, does this change the XP result?
For the people who are getting bad XP. Clearly you want to try and take MOBS of a higher levle...
For the folks getting Good XP. Please take the time to tell us how you are doing it so the folks getting poor XP can get a leg up.
WarWidow
Mon May 02, 2005 1:15 pm
#6
The Good: unsure yet.
The Bad: read below...
More testing in PvP this morning.
I am MCH/Master Marksman/with pistoleer-bh skills. I can't respec due to a grind flaw.
I am testing in good converted armor with defence clothing, including new +4 melee/+18 ranged defence clothing. A 1924 energy PSG. I took Brandy & Moun Gold. For testing I used a 661 max Geo-pistol with PU.
All in a testing frame of mind. I don't care if I die, its a learning curve. So I went overt-Special Forces this morning to PvP and I encountered two match ups.
1. Took out a level 50 Rancor and a newer probot (haven't tested bomb droid yet). Assaulted a Jedi in Theed. Team work is the key with Jedi. He was rated at 80...I am at 73. Took my chances. ROOTED him, Hit him with intimadate shot, got in a defensive stance, enraged my Rancor (500+ damage), and sent my probot in. Needless to say, we all went down quicker then my prom date. Rancor & probot barely did anything at all in damage! Oh well, next test.
2. Took out 2 level 35 war cats (300+ damage each with 4100 HAM) and a newer probot again. Assaulted a level 80 Rebel combatant. Enraged both my cats and assaulted him with specials as probot attacked from a distance. Took a defensive stance, ROOTED him, and attacked. Well his range over my range ROOTED me farther back. As I was stuck working on my next attack, I watched my probot blow up and my 2 cats die, both only doing minor damage. 4 to 1 odds. Thank god we are only in learning-testing mode. Granted with a better weapon or better range, this would of ended in my favor...maybe. Just sad to see 2 great cats converted over to not hold up in war.
The point I am trying to make is. The CU has just begun and soon players will adapt to the system. Rumors of armor reaching 8000 Kinetic protection are already coming into the fold, along with better defence food and equipment. So when your deadly level 70 pet assaults an adapted combatant with a 1000 damage powerhammer, just like before the CU, our loyal companions fall victim due to weakness!
The Bad: read below...
More testing in PvP this morning.
I am MCH/Master Marksman/with pistoleer-bh skills. I can't respec due to a grind flaw.
I am testing in good converted armor with defence clothing, including new +4 melee/+18 ranged defence clothing. A 1924 energy PSG. I took Brandy & Moun Gold. For testing I used a 661 max Geo-pistol with PU.
All in a testing frame of mind. I don't care if I die, its a learning curve. So I went overt-Special Forces this morning to PvP and I encountered two match ups.
1. Took out a level 50 Rancor and a newer probot (haven't tested bomb droid yet). Assaulted a Jedi in Theed. Team work is the key with Jedi. He was rated at 80...I am at 73. Took my chances. ROOTED him, Hit him with intimadate shot, got in a defensive stance, enraged my Rancor (500+ damage), and sent my probot in. Needless to say, we all went down quicker then my prom date. Rancor & probot barely did anything at all in damage! Oh well, next test.
2. Took out 2 level 35 war cats (300+ damage each with 4100 HAM) and a newer probot again. Assaulted a level 80 Rebel combatant. Enraged both my cats and assaulted him with specials as probot attacked from a distance. Took a defensive stance, ROOTED him, and attacked. Well his range over my range ROOTED me farther back. As I was stuck working on my next attack, I watched my probot blow up and my 2 cats die, both only doing minor damage. 4 to 1 odds. Thank god we are only in learning-testing mode. Granted with a better weapon or better range, this would of ended in my favor...maybe. Just sad to see 2 great cats converted over to not hold up in war.
The point I am trying to make is. The CU has just begun and soon players will adapt to the system. Rumors of armor reaching 8000 Kinetic protection are already coming into the fold, along with better defence food and equipment. So when your deadly level 70 pet assaults an adapted combatant with a 1000 damage powerhammer, just like before the CU, our loyal companions fall victim due to weakness!
LyteFoot
Mon May 02, 2005 1:18 pm
#7
When you group your experience is modified by the group level. So if you are grouped with a level 80 player the group level becomes 80. You now need to go after creatures in the 78 to 82 range to get good experience. Your pet is not assigned a level but you all, including the pet, take damage from the creature at the group level. As an example I was level 48 and grouped with a level 80 guildie. We took on a level 50 voritor. The beast did 60 points of damage to me per hit and I got 1 CH and 1 rifle experience off of it. When I ungrouped another level 50 voritor did 570 points of damage to me and I didn't stay alive long enough to know the experience I would recieve. Both the amount of damage a creature will do and the amount of experience you receive are determined by group level with a solo player basically being a group of 1. The damage part is a cheap way for SOE to make the game cheat and insure you can only take on content near the group level.
As another example last night I was level 52 and in a level 57 group. We took on level 62 dewbacks and I was getting 900 CH and 3k rifle experience off each kill. The same group, who had a level 8 guildie with us, took on level 17 dews; they died almost instantly and the level 8 got 1 experience just like the rest of us.
As another example last night I was level 52 and in a level 57 group. We took on level 62 dewbacks and I was getting 900 CH and 3k rifle experience off each kill. The same group, who had a level 8 guildie with us, took on level 17 dews; they died almost instantly and the level 8 got 1 experience just like the rest of us.
Galacium
Mon May 02, 2005 2:21 pm
#8
2. Took out 2 level 35 war cats (300+ damage each with 4100 HAM) and a newer probot again. Assaulted a level 80 Rebel combatant. Enraged both my cats and assaulted him with specials as probot attacked from a distance. Took a defensive stance, ROOTED him, and attacked. Well his range over my range ROOTED me farther back. As I was stuck working on my next attack, I watched my probot blow up and my 2 cats die, both only doing minor damage. 4 to 1 odds. Thank god we are only in learning-testing mode. Granted with a better weapon or better range, this would of ended in my favor...maybe. Just sad to see 2 great cats converted over to not hold up in war.
I'm curious as to whether you were grouped with your pets at the time and what your Combat Level is. Because grouping changes the level of all the combatants and CL is important in determining damage it could make a big difference in the results.
I do agree with your general assertion that as players figure out the new system pets (which are fairly simple to use) will become more marginal. I still feel that as they are more effective now than the were previously when they hardly did any damage at allto your average buffed and armored player.
ArchiieBarrett
Mon May 02, 2005 2:26 pm
#9
NO NO NOOO. Not all creatures under level 70 are tamable! Only those on Dantooine, Endor, some from Naboo, and Tatooine. On talus only the dalrayke matriarch, Yavin and lok nuthing and Rori is bugged again and nuthing also which TICKS ME OFF ROYALLY becuase I wanted an extinct elder pugoriss, They went extinct right when I started hunting for one, and they got missions. Always wanted to team one up with my giant mawgax.
Galacium
Mon May 02, 2005 2:27 pm
#10
LyteFoot wrote:
When you group your experience is modified by the group level. So if you are grouped with a level 80 player the group level becomes 80...
Good infor LyteFoot, thanks much.
Soits just about yourgroup levelvs the creatures level. In a way if you want to maximize CH xp you would want to keep your own Combat level as low as is reasonable, and not group the pets if they happen to have a higher CL than you do. But if your pets are lower level than you, its clearly good to group with them so you boost their effective CL to your own.
Also this suggests, to get the most from CH, you want to get your own CL as high as you can, and use the maximum number of pets possible as the multiple low level pets will all become your own CL when your group them. This jives with what I've experienced so far myself, that many low level pets are much better than a single high level pet in most situations.
ArchiieBarrett
Mon May 02, 2005 2:27 pm
#11
and to add to that, only the extincts on Dathimor and Corellia like the corellian butterfly droneand monarch and I belive the Shear mite queen is tamable again. anyone check if the malkoc plains walkers are tamable?
WarWidow
Mon May 02, 2005 2:28 pm
#12
My base level for my MCH is 73. Yes, my cats where grouped with me. I'll have to try PVP with them ungrouped. Having them grouped feels more like a team and you can watch their stats, but guess its not ment to be.
Galacium
Mon May 02, 2005 2:36 pm
#13
WarWidow wrote:
My base level for my MCH is 73. Yes, my cats where grouped with me. I'll have to try PVP with them ungrouped. Having them grouped feels more like a team and you can watch their stats, but guess its not ment to be.
I think you mis-understood me. They should be stronger when grouped with you than when not grouped. I though perhaps you didn't have them grouped at the time and thus they were weaker than they could have been. I was kind of hoping that was the case.
Sounds like the person you dueled was stronger than the one I dueled. I think I dueled someone who was templated on the root and state effects, which arn't so great agaisnt multiple pets. But you faced someone who also had a lot of damage dealing potential and thus chewed through the pets limited HAM much faster.
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