Creature Handler Archive

Thread: Vertexon, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ...

Kuildeous
Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:54 pm
#1






KzinKiller wrote:


It's not 'all the changes made in the past few months', it's one set of specific changes in Pub 5 that the devs clearly stated, right here in these forums, they knew made the CH profession overly weak but would work out "in the balance when it's implemented." Since the balance was not implemented and we have no idea when (or if) it will, the quite reasonable question is "Why did you stick us with this crappy code that relied on other game changes that never took place?"





Look at it from your own perspective. I don't know your line of work, so I will use some example.


Say you're a clerk in a lawyer's office. You spent weeks upon weeks coming up with a filing system that you swear will work wonders. A few months down the line, some interns tell you that your system sucks. You got paid to think up and implement that system. Would you tell your boss, "Hey, sorry, boss, but that didn't work out after all. I'm going to need another month to put it back to the way it was." If you would, then you have a forgiving boss who doesn't mind losing all that money. Furthermore, your boss doesn't mind sending a message to the clients. That message is, "We don't care enough to do it right the first time." Not many bosses are like that. And I bet Sony bosses are not like that either.


So, to answer your question: <b>"why they would not revert to the earlier code when it became clear the Balance was a mirage that might never happen."</b> They aren't going to admit to any mistakes to the higher-ups. They probably also honestly thought the Balance was going to happen, but bureaucracy wins again.


In either case, petitioning to roll back one section of code and force the devs to explain to the bosses why their money was not well-spent is a worthless cause.


And asking why they didn't abort their plan at the moment is equally quixotic. What explanation could they give will satisfy the user? There really isn't one.





RIP: Tasha Jalul - Radiant
Love Star Wars, but the few role-players I could find on the servers were outnumbered by powergamers who wanted only l337 l00t and mad skillz. I can't justify paying $15 a month to play a game by myself.
Still cares enough to interject an opinion, though.
KzinKiller
Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:16 pm
#2

I can only say that your analogy isn't close enough to even comment on, and all the stuff about what might be in the devs' minds is too hypothetical to worry about.


They say they want to fix broken stuff. They say they want our help doing it. If that's not 100% B.S., then I'm providing a way for them to do it. Vertexon, as our Correspondent, is supposed to help gather that data from us. All I want is his response on whether he's doing that in this case, or not, and if not, why not.




*
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them
Albert Einstein

CU-1 ... CU-2 ... CUL8R
Ko-aIri
Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:29 pm
#3

Your thread wasn't the only one deleted this morning, so was the one I started about what our question should be for the 19 questions... see here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=creature_handler&message.id=175740



Ko-a Iri / Aosa Oto / Heston / Si'ro Eti
Twi'lek Creature Handler / Rodian Dark Jedi Knight / Human Bio-Engineer / Ithorian Shipwright
Dark Order Guildleader


Creature Handler Correspondent & Combat Upgrade Alpha Participant
...has been recognized as having an exceptional biography (Ko-a)
...has been recognized as an exceptional soldier in the war (Ko-a, Aosa)

Seiryuu
Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:27 pm
#4

While I whole-heartedly agree something needs to be done, we should all realize nothing will change. Why? Because if they don't have the time and man-power to implement the Combat Balance, where are they going to find the time to undo the changes they have already made? Then change them back when the Balance does go through?

It isn't going to happen. We have had more attention than most professions combined, so we cannot expect any more soon. I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

The real question to me, is whether it is worth waiting around for the fixes to be made?



-----
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SioBabble
Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:54 pm
#5






Seiryuu wrote:
While I whole-heartedly agree something needs to be done, we should all realize nothing will change. Why? Because if they don't have the time and man-power to implement the Combat Balance, where are they going to find the time to undo the changes they have already made? Then change them back when the Balance does go through?

It isn't going to happen. We have had more attention than most professions combined, so we cannot expect any more soon. I don't like it, but that is the way it is.

The real question to me, is whether it is worth waiting around for the fixes to be made?






We had more attention than other professions because we worked, and the others didn't, and we had to be as broken as they were.


This is the bottom line. Nerf those professions that are working, and drag them down to the morass of mediocrity.





Tazz vonMannstein Baron-Administrator of Corellia, master navigator of Corellia, captain of the Gregarious Gurreck

Sio Babble MBH/MCH/Cabana Boy; master of Tyson, the GNORT OF DEATH

Jeffn Akbar Nerfed from here to Lok MD/MCM

Zanti Agaesia Bothan MBE, 12 point Master Chef, Havoc Squadron Ace pilot


KzinKiller
Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:01 pm
#6


It isn't going to happen. We have had more attention than most professions combined, so we cannot expect any more soon. I don't like it, but that is the way it is.



If you consider a seriously bad management decision that breaks most of a popular class in the game to be "attention," I guess I can agree with that ... but at least at my company, when we break our code, we try to fix it ... fast. I think it's a fairly common approach to software design.




*
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them
Albert Einstein

CU-1 ... CU-2 ... CUL8R
KzinKiller
Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:10 am
#7

... and assume you had nothing to do with deleting my "Devs, you broke it, now you fix it" post ... a post which 4 pages of MCH's had heartily agreed with the central thesis: Roll back everything in Pub 5 except the skills distribution within CH to fix us until the Combat Balance, if and when it ever occurs.


I asked a few times within that thread for your opinion on this, and never got it ... now it has been deleted, although it contained no flames, no obscenties, nothing but a simple proposal on how to fix the most glaring problems with the CH profession, a proposal many veteran players appear to agree with completely.


So, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it was deleted with the rather common mod over-zealousness that we're seeing on the forum recently.


I'd still like an answer on how "my" correspondent feels about this ... I think a lot of MCH's do. Do you support or oppose a rollback of the Pub 5 nerf, and have you communicated this to the devs? Have you received any feedback?


Inquiring minds want to know.




*
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them
Albert Einstein

CU-1 ... CU-2 ... CUL8R
Kuildeous
Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:47 am
#8






KzinKiller wrote:

I'd still like an answer on how "my" correspondent feels about this ... I think a lot of MCH's do. Do you support or oppose a rollback of the Pub 5 nerf, and have you communicated this to the devs? Have you received any feedback?


Inquiring minds want to know.





Mental masturbation at best. Such a thing will not happen.


Sure, there have been some mistakes realized in SWG and other games. In these cases, the powers that be will catch the mistake and make changes within a week.


You’re talking about scrapping all the changes made in the past few months. Why would the devs even consider this? How does this look for them? It tells the higher-ups that they aren’t doing their job right. So, why do you think they would listen to your suggestion?


Is it worth deleting? Probably not, but this certainly is one of the least constructive threads. Nothing will be done about it. You might as well post a thread about, "You know what? Let’s have Hoth but the Rebels win this time."


It’s good to care about such things, but face it; asking to roll back the game several months is about the most worthless thing you can do. The image they want to portray to the higher-ups and the customers is "progress." People don’t see progress if you reverse changes.


Sorry, but that’s life. Propose some changes that will stick, instead.





RIP: Tasha Jalul - Radiant
Love Star Wars, but the few role-players I could find on the servers were outnumbered by powergamers who wanted only l337 l00t and mad skillz. I can't justify paying $15 a month to play a game by myself.
Still cares enough to interject an opinion, though.
KzinKiller
Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:59 am
#9



You’re talking about scrapping all the changes made in the past few months. Why would the devs even consider this? How does this look for them? It tells the higher-ups that they aren’t doing their job right. So, why do you think they would listen to your suggestion?


Well, of course the deleted thread had many articulate posts that spoke to these questions.


Why would they do it? Because the changes completely failed to achieve any real game 'balacing' objective and were made in anticipation of a Combat Balance happening 4 months ago that has never taken place .... the reasonable question would be why they would not revert to the earlier code when it became clear the Balance was a mirage that might never happen.


It's not 'all the changes made in the past few months', it's one set of specific changes in Pub 5 that the devs clearly stated, right here in these forums, they knew made the CH profession overly weak but would work out "in the balance when it's implemented." Since the balance was not implemented and we have no idea when (or if) it will, the quite reasonable question is "Why did you stick us with this crappy code that relied on other game changes that never took place?"





*
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them
Albert Einstein

CU-1 ... CU-2 ... CUL8R
Seiryuu
Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:47 am
#10

Kzin, I'm not saying it is a good decision or attention. As a programmer, the bugs and poor implementation I see coming out of this game annoy me to no end. I am sure I could write a twenty page post on the poor quality control alone...

With every publish up to 6, we have had significant attention to the profession. Most of this attention was nerfs or balance, some of which broke working things, as Sio said. This is time spent on the profession. In the developers' eyes, this equates to attention.

Look at Droid Engineers. Publish 7 was a joke despite its name. Publish 8 is the first real attention they have gotten. Chefs got one publish. BEs got one. Squad Leader, Pikeman and many others have yet to get anything.

We had six. Don't expect anything soon.

(Judging by their past track record, do you really think getting attention is going to improve our lot any? Call me jaded, cynical and bitter, but I kind of like not being involved in a patch.)



-----
Visit www.swgcreatures.com for all your creature needs.
Tell 'em Lantyssa sent you!

Math got you down? Need a tissue? Try my Chef and Tailor Tissue Calculators!

Looking for a special? Try this Excel spreadsheet on Special Abilities.
KzinKiller
Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:39 pm
#11


(Judging by their past track record, do you really think getting attention is going to improve our lot any? Call me jaded, cynical and bitter, but I kind of like not being involved in a patch.)



When you're laying on the ground bleeding out your last pint from an arterial wound, you'll take any ol' treatment you can get, even from a guy who was sanctioned for malpractice multiple times ... I mean, you can't get worse than dead.


MCH can't get worse than dead either ... I don't want one damned new bit of coding, just a return to coding that already existed ... it should take half an hour of dev time if they have any kind of change management documentation at all .... and if they don't, there's no hope anyway.




*
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them
Albert Einstein

CU-1 ... CU-2 ... CUL8R
KzinKiller
Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:53 am
#12

Still like an answer, Vert, if you're even reading this board any more.




*
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them
Albert Einstein

CU-1 ... CU-2 ... CUL8R
Templar1865
Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:56 am
#13

I started out as a CH because I thought the concept was fantastic. I had visions of the rancor tamer from Ep 6, the Geonosian arena in Ep2, etc., floating through my head. I picked BE up because that appealed to the mad scientist in me. Now, with all the mistakes, I'm simply finishing off CH for....for what? A badge? One step (out of 30+) closer to playing "the" endgame profession (which is broken too). Maybe I need to rethink this....


At any rate, Stratics has an interesting page that maps out all of the projected publishes and mini-publishes through November (estimated JTLS launch). Based on their projections, they won't get around to correspondent issues until August at the earliest. Even then, it's no guarantee that anything beneficial for CH will happen. Bottom line: don't expect this profession to change in the next 5-6 months. That's why I'm mastering and dropping. If I'm still playing the game in November (in an odd way, the space expansion doesn't attract me much. I'm a roleplayer and it's not fun to me to roleplay a spaceship), I might circle back if they've fixed things.


I just hope I can find a good home to my pets....
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