Creature Handler Archive
Thread: the great lvl ten uber non ch pet test
Page 1 of 2
Darkcrest
Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:07 pm
#1
I used a toon with no combat skills for this test the toon in use has the following proffs only
master archetic
master artisian
master merchant
and some mayor skills
I had her buffed with 2400 3 hour buffs and armed with a pre nerf repulic blaster and lastly aset of armor with high kinetic and 20% rest and lastly the pet a lvl ten gurreck with 10216 health 5534 action and 3350 mind with of course high kinetic and dmg between 120-130 with intimidation I sent her out to a spot I ran over with a rebel base and 1 lone rebel with 8k ham over the course of ten minutes the pet was incapped and she ended up killed with rebels ham at 60%
second test a lone plains hunter same set up same buffs the plains hunter ate them so to speak after 15 minutes and 10% left of ham
conclusion yes the lvl tens are high end pets and anyone with any decent fight skills could defeat the same targets in less then 2 minutes but at the same time everyone is freaking out over the ham and level at most the ham adds a few minutes for the non ch crafter to get away and get a guildy to help these pets are like big dogs with now bite at best I say let the non ch have them my live pets and some of my be pets would make short work of them in the long run these pets are equivilant of the non chers having the old cowardly gurrecks basically big watch dogs at best
and I know most of you will disagree with this but I say try it these pets are just for buying time for a crafter who needs protection when doing stuff like harvester runs on dath and because of the fact people are leaving everyday you cant always find a guildie on when you need to do these runs let then have it these pets will never equal or be better then our beloved critters in the long run
ok now let the flaming begin
hossp
Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:13 am
#2
i would have to agree with you somewhat...pets as your only form of combatare useless..pets as supportfor ranged are very valuable....i think the problem most ch's have with uber non ch pets is that they aren't used by non combat toons
i NEED a tank for my master rifle..a non ch uber is going to burn a lot more pet stims than my high level pets, but serves the same purpose..some think it is worth the sp to use more petstims and they are probably correct, but i choose to keep ch and my rare pets at the cost of sp, and i am content to do so...
i think a better experiment would be to send out a mrifle with a uber non ch pet and one (mrifle)with a high level ch pet, and compare those results..i would gess both would be effective , but the uber ch pet would suffer a lot more damage..but the non ch rifleman could also be a master medic and could heal it much more easily
lammergeier
Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:51 am
#3
what's the point of testing a kinetic resist pet against an NPC with non-kinetic damage types?
SioBabble
Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:07 am
#4
There have been a lot of threads started recently about very powerful BE created non-CH pets.
This is a serious problem and here is why:
Just over a year ago, a massive nerf of CH and creatures was brutally imposed in the name of "balance".
At the same time, a major revamp of BE was presented. It was much needed; many BE creations were untamable and bugged, rendering them little more than furniture.
However, the BE revamp undermined the entire justification of the CH nerfing...to bring "balance" to the game. Non CHs were intentionally reduced in their call levels from 15 to 10. Many very popular creatures in the were stripped of light armor and resists in order to bring "balance" to the game. But at the same time, BEs were given the ability to create CL 10 and below creatures that are many times more powerful than anything found in the wild, and thus the notion that to control that power required skill points (in the form of boxes in the CH tree) was undermined dramatically. Thus the "balance" that was imposed on CHs is a farce. Non CHs running around with 10,000 health bar monsters is a slap in the face to those who have dedicated time and SP to the CH profession.
No non-CH should be able to call anything beyond 1100 HAM on any bar, BE or natural, in my opinion. If the HAM of a BE creation is higher than that on any attribute, it should be immediately kicked up to CL 11 minimum. Creature pets are in the game to be meatshields, and the higher the HAM and the greater the resists, the better a meatshield it is. If you want that kind of meatshield, you should be forced to spend SP to get it. No freebies.
This is basically the equivalent of handing out lighsabers to anyone in the game without having to so much as visit Ben Kenobi's hut for the privledge. Of course, since Jedi would cry like newborns if anything happened, and the cowardly devs would instantly cave in to their demands, the analogy is flawed.
Since CHs have been hated since release because their profession pretty much worked, no one sheds a tear or cares that this gross imbalance continues to exist...the non-CH "uber" creation which is more powerful than CL 35 natural critters.
Spazzers
Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:40 pm
#5
SioBabble wrote:
There have been a lot of threads started recently about very powerful BE created non-CH pets.
This is a serious problem and here is why:
Just over a year ago, a massive nerf of CH and creatures was brutally imposed in the name of "balance".
At the same time, a major revamp of BE was presented. It was much needed; many BE creations were untamable and bugged, rendering them little more than furniture.
However, the BE revamp undermined the entire justification of the CH nerfing...to bring "balance" to the game. Non CHs were intentionally reduced in their call levels from 15 to 10. Many very popular creatures in the were stripped of light armor and resists in order to bring "balance" to the game. But at the same time, BEs were given the ability to create CL 10 and below creatures that are many times more powerful than anything found in the wild, and thus the notion that to control that power required skill points (in the form of boxes in the CH tree) was undermined dramatically. Thus the "balance" that was imposed on CHs is a farce. Non CHs running around with 10,000 health bar monsters is a slap in the face to those who have dedicated time and SP to the CH profession.
What you have failed to mention is that a bio-engineer can make an animal at any level that is better than what you will find in the wild. Should those be disallowed as well? You failed to mention a creature handler can have two or three animals out at the same time. Is that not an advantage and a selling point for creature handler? I agree the creature handler nerf was a farce but not for the reasons you've cited. In their infinite wisdom the developers nerf the whiz out of wild animals and at the same time gave doctors the ability to buff, entertainers the ability to buff, and introduced really nice armor. Thus the solo group was born. Let the spawn camping begin!
No non-CH should be able to call anything beyond 1100 HAM on any bar, BE or natural, in my opinion. If the HAM of a BE creation is higher than that on any attribute, it should be immediately kicked up to CL 11 minimum. Creature pets are in the game to be meatshields, and the higher the HAM and the greater the resists, the better a meatshield it is. If you want that kind of meatshield, you should be forced to spend SP to get it. No freebies.
I don't disagree here except to say the developers came right out and said at the beginning of the revamp a bio-engineer should be able to make an animal better than what you find in the wild. Is a CL10 with 10K HAM too high? is 5K too high? If the developers say nothing who gets to decide what the maximum HAM should be set at?
This is basically the equivalent of handing out lighsabers to anyone in the game without having to so much as visit Ben Kenobi's hut for the privledge. Of course, since Jedi would cry like newborns if anything happened, and the cowardly devs would instantly cave in to their demands, the analogy is flawed.
I wouldn't compare any animal to a lightsaber. Sad but true.
Since CHs have been hated since release because their profession pretty much worked, no one sheds a tear or cares that this gross imbalance continues to exist...the non-CH "uber" creation which is more powerful than CL 35 natural critters.
Your post shows a mindset I don't disagree with in general. The problem isn't going away. It needs to be discussed. Everytime a thread is created that brings up the issue increases the odds a developer might actually hear or see what the problems are and address them. I wouldn't say an animal that has high HAM with 60% kinetic, no armor, and is vulnerable to everything else is more powerful than a CL35 however.
SioBabble
Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:37 pm
#6
Spazzers wrote:
But you're only comparing HAM. Creature level is determined by a lot more than that. If I could make a cdef pistol with 10,000 life versus 1000 would you be upset? It's still a cdef pistol.
HAM Is what creatures are all about. The CL is based on the damage dealt, but the true value of a creature is how long it can serve as a meatshield and take damage. Which is why the CL system is totally warped and ignores the true role of the creature pet in this game.
Your CL34 fambaa may have 9.4K HAM but the HAM is flat where the CL10 HAM is tiered. The fambaa is also going to have resists the CL10 doesn't. Creature level takes into consideration the to hit speed and armor rating as well. The only thing the "uber" CL10 has is high HAM and high kinetic.
High HAM and high kinetic covers 90% of PvE combat nicely. Why should someone who hasn't invested a single skill point in creature control be able to call and control power like that? Probots were deliberately nerfed becasue they provided non-CHs too much tanking ability. So why did the devs SCREW UP ROYALLY with BE pets, contradicting all their previous positions and making a mockery of the "balance"justification for the Great Nerf?
I understand your point regarding what a non-creature handler should be able to handle. I would say however if you are going to relegate CL10 and below to just be puppies no one would buy them. You might as well just eliminate them. Mounts are pointless compared to the speeders. If a mount can defend you the value just increased. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out the reality of what you're offering non-creature handlers.
No one is buying them now, so why bother? Mounts ARE pointless compared to speeders. Most players are in a huge hurry to get to that mission lair, collect their reward, and get back to the mission terminal. They're too busy trying to "beat the game" to actually PLAY the game, and if that's what they want to do, fine. I'll be poking along on the back of my dewback enjoying the view and getting emersed, which is what to me this game is supposed to be about.
Message Edited by Spazzers on 12-20-2004 12:43 PM
Response in color from SioBabble
Spazzers
Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:51 pm
#7
True HAM is a big factor and also true that in most PvE battles the majority of the damage will be kinetic but I would say the usefulness of the animal depends on how the animal is used. I agree the only real purpose of a CL10 uber pet is to hold agro. No question about that at all.
I also agree the creature creation system is wacked. BE's have been asking for the "new" system to be fixed since it came out(it isn't new anymore. The system is over a year old now). The answer from the developing team was a pet check. The pet check theory is flawed from the get go. If a bio-engineer makes an animal that is labled a CL10 it should be a CL10. If the crafting system worked there would be no need for a pet check to begin with. It would appear the developers took the easy road on this one. Instead of fixing the problem they patched it with a pet check. The pet check also screws the customer. Everytime you purchase an animal from a bio-engineer you risk the possibility the animal may fail the check, either when you tame it, call it, or it becomes full grown.
I read a post that said bio-engineers make these uber animals because of money. This may be true to some extent but the other factor is the pet check. These uber CL10's pass the check every single time. I can make a CL10 with 1.5K HAM which more often than not fail the pet check. I made a furniture animal for someone using minor worrt DNA. The customer tamed the animal by accident. The animal which was a level 3 failed the pet check.
Animals do indeed sell. They don't fly off the shelf but people are buying them. I don't make the uber CL10's and my animals still sell. The number one seller for me is a CL10 razor cat followed very closely by anything in the range ofCL70.
SioBabble you make a great point regarding what the uber CL10's are used for and how they impact the game. I would say however, it isn't the animal. It isn't the person that made the animal. It isn't the person that bought the animal. It is the crafting system to make the animal that needs to be overhauled. The system works great in theory only.
SioBabble
Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:18 pm
#8
Spazzers wrote:
SioBabble you make a great point regarding what the uber CL10's are used for and how they impact the game. I would say however, it isn't the animal. It isn't the person that made the animal. It isn't the person that bought the animal. It is the crafting system to make the animal that needs to be overhauled. The system works great in theory only.
I know a lot of BEs feel that way, Spazzers. They know the pets that have high HAM are wrong; they also know that the system as it exists makes it nearly impossible for them to create CL 10 pets that stay CL 10; out of the vat they're CL 10, but once they're tamed they go all over the place. Ironically, seriously overpowered creatures make the CL 10 cut all the time; it's the ones that are really borderline that get tossed into CH only land when they were by any other measure authentic CL 10 creatures.
Some BEs know how to make these pets, and simply refuse to, knowing that they are simply wrong at CL 10. The BE crafting system needs work, but unfortunately at this point it is a very low priority for the developers. I know the BEs are frustrated as well, because the ethical ones are undercut by those out to make a fast credit on overpowered non CH pets.
Darkcrest
Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:19 pm
#9
what's the point of testing a kinetic resist pet against an NPC with non-kinetic damage types?
I would like to point out since they fixed NPC's specials the rebel the non ch pet was fighting was using a pike which is a kinetic weapon he then used a blaster on the toon I used when the pet was incapped
KawikaMacGuyver
Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:11 pm
#10
IMHO...the current clvl 10 BE pets are not unbalancedgiven the current state of the game.
Kyreal
Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:53 pm
#11
Spazzers wrote:
But you're only comparing HAM. Creature level is determined by a lot more than that. If I could make a cdef pistol with 10,000 life versus 1000 would you be upset? It's still a cdef pistol.
Your CL34 fambaa may have 9.4K HAM but the HAM is flat where the CL10 HAM is tiered. The fambaa is also going to have resists the CL10 doesn't. Creature level takes into consideration the to hit speed and armor rating as well. The only thing the "uber" CL10 has is high HAM and high kinetic.
I understand your point regarding what a non-creature handler should be able to handle. I would say however if you are going to relegate CL10 and below to just be puppies no one would buy them. You might as well just eliminate them. Mounts are pointless compared to the speeders. If a mount can defend you the value just increased. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out the reality of what you're offering non-creature handlers.
Message Edited by Spazzers on 12-20-2004 12:43 PM
the ham is tiered yes, but health is the bar that is most commonly hit in pve, and that is the bar that thepet has the most ham in, sure its only got 3k mind etc but a goodpetstim heals all bars.
a non-ch should NOT have an effective defending creature in its control, that is entirely the CH domain, any non-ch that wants a pet, should EXACTLY be what it is, a puppy or something that cannot defend you, will be incapped in a couple of hits, cannot kill any mobs etc. non-ch should not have theluxury of having a tank pet without spending the Skill points in CH.
the high ham/ high kinetic cl10 pet allows non-ch to be able to tank most pve creature mobs (90 percent of creature mobs hit with kinetic attacks), which undermines the CH profession.
im not saying nerf BE, im saying fix the problem.
BE's can still make cash on petstims, tissues to tailors etc, make CH correct pets, make the non-ch a (non-tankable, non-fighting effective, role-play only) pet etc.
SioBabble
Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:02 am
#12
The question, Spazzers, is who should be allowed to call these creatures.
My point is not that the BE creatures are bad or that they shouldn't be superior in some way to their natural counterparts, it's that if they have a 10,000 HAM, their challenge level is frankly bogus. It shouldn't be 10, when a natural fambaa has a HAM of 9700 and a CL of 34.
I'd go even further and insist that "full sized" pets (BE dews, for example) shouldn't be available to non-CHs to call. They canride around on lesser dews. Not full sized ones...that ability should be reserved to those who have paid, in SP, for the privledge of riding around on full sized pets.
No one who has not invested the SP should be able to call anything greater than 1100 or so HAM (1100 is the HAM of a natural carrion spat, a CL 10 creature). This was very clearly the intent of the devs when they nerfed non CH abiltiy to call naturals from CL 15 to CL 10, but the BEs were given the ability to create things labeld CL 10 but in fact had a lot more raw combat power than a cowardly gurreck, the former premiere non CH pet.
Non CHs should not be allowed to wield this kind of power. If they want a pet with those stats, let them take up the trade and invest SP for the privledge of commanding that kind of power.
Perhaps the solution is that non-CH pets have no combat capablity at all; they just sit there inert, like a speederbike, when you're engaging in meatlump bashing or nightsiter baiting.
Spazzers
Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:43 am
#13
But you're only comparing HAM. Creature level is determined by a lot more than that. If I could make a cdef pistol with 10,000 life versus 1000 would you be upset? It's still a cdef pistol.
Your CL34 fambaa may have 9.4K HAM but the HAM is flat where the CL10 HAM is tiered. The fambaa is also going to have resists the CL10 doesn't. Creature level takes into consideration the to hit speed and armor rating as well. The only thing the "uber" CL10 has is high HAM and high kinetic.
I understand your point regarding what a non-creature handler should be able to handle. I would say however if you are going to relegate CL10 and below to just be puppies no one would buy them. You might as well just eliminate them. Mounts are pointless compared to the speeders. If a mount can defend you the value just increased. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out the reality of what you're offering non-creature handlers.
Message Edited by Spazzers on 12-20-2004 12:43 PM
Page 1 of 2