Creature Handler Archive
Thread: This hate system................
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supersparc
Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:30 pm
#1
Kitoth wrote:Hmm.. the new CL info is discouraging.As to fixing the hate system as to how it relates to CH and other 'tanking' profs... perhaps some specials should be 'toggles', not one-offs. For example, you want a pet to tank? As a CH you have a special you can train them called "taunt". You click it once, and the creature repatedly 'taunts' a creature, based on the warm-up/cool-down cycle, as long as it is active- without the player having to keep hitting it. The icon is highlighted to indicated it is active. Hitting it again deactivates it.Moving forward, to expand on that, and to help define the CH role as jack of all trades, we then need other 'toggle' abilities. Like a toggle for increased damage through special attacks (also restricted by warm-up/cool-down rates). While active, the pet will spam that special as often as the timer allows. Perhaps different special attacks with different timers, like a high-damage attack with a long cycle, and a less-damaging (but above base attack strength) attack with a shorter cycle. You'd use the high-damage one for short fights and the less-damaging one for long, drawn-out fights.Gee, I wonder where I get all my great ideas from? I don't suppose it could be.... a certain, unmentionable game with a far superior CH-like class? hmm....
Giving the CH specials for these abilities, makes pets more generic. For example, if I could teach all pets Plague Strike......why would I go through the hassle of taming a pet that has it?
Joker had a decent proposal a couple weeks back. It seemed pretty inline with what the Devs have already said. I would prefer that CHs got to add a 3rd special to a pet. The first 2 would be part of the wild or BE pet forever. The third would be taught by the CH and pertain to the roll of the pet. Something like:
Gash = High damage (damage dealer)
Charge = Stun or KD (crowd control)
Dig in = Defense bonus (tank)
Devour = Pet gets % of damage done added to pets health
This would augment wild pets but they would still have their identity.
cleekjc
Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:18 am
#2
Are there any jucyrumors that this will be going away?
I can live with everything in the CU but this (assuming they actually at some point fix the critical bugs)
The hate system is a game breaker for me beacuse it kills CH and any medical profession.................and it does not help rifleman with thier crappy defenses either................
jopenack
Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:24 am
#3
Its going live as is lol
Forget what evryone tells you lol. even me hehe
This whole curb will be totally different in 3 months. People will scream ingame (Who don't come to the forums), bugs fixed, things adjusted........
Remember whats going live right now is hardly out of alpha testing lol I would call it beta now though.
So what you will see tomorrow will not be what you see months from now.
The hate system dictates your role not the profession, and playing games with dot's, taunts, using lower weapons or dabling instead of mastering to work around it is not a fix.
Professions are supposed to dictate roles not tricking the hate sytem. It will be changed its just a matter of when.
hossp
Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:29 am
#4
cleekjc wrote:
Are there any jucyrumors that this will be going away?
I can live with everything in the CU but this (assuming they actually at some point fix the critical bugs)
The hate system is a game breaker for me beacuse it kills CH and any medical profession.................and it does not help rifleman with thier crappy defenses either................
not a chance..the curb is basiclly EQ code made to work(?) in a hurry for swg..since the hate sys is part of the EQ code, it will stay
Atobusarragra
Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:29 am
#5
Speaking from a rifleman's perspective the Hate system as it currently exists is bad. Even the TK taunt is not working well at all. But as Jopenack said it will be addressed and fixed, its just a matter of time. In fact, in this last patch on TC I've noticed a difference, still far from where it should be though.
cleekjc
Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:47 am
#6
In my own thoughts I have calculiated in the "Combat Upgrade Revamp" When I first read they were pushing this out to live I figured they will be"bug squashing"it for months.......... Launch Day all over again....I personally do not think the game can survive another launch day all over again, but time will tell
I do remember somthing in Blairs Blog about the hate system being borked, but the Devs have a history of flat out lying to our faces, just compair the original pubilc CU docs and profession map to what is being released..........
Still it would be nice to know it the hate system is at least offically conidered buged/broken as is/ even released to live servers...............
hossp
Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:01 am
#7
i don't think they would admit it's broken, and if this were eq, it isnt...the ironic part was how the curb was supposed to diversify the selection of professions, now the way the hate sys is, anyone with a ranged profession will need to drop it for a high melee def brawler profession..i would bet swordsman will become the fotm..rifle is utterly useles atm, the way the hate sys is configured, and ch is also useles, since the hate sys destroys any tactical advantage that using a pet would/should give a player..i really think they dropped the ball on this one..perhaps if everyone drops ranged, they will do something
Message Edited by hossp on 04-27-2005 10:02 AM
Atobusarragra
Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:18 am
#8
Incorrect. Rifleman is far from useless and the same goes for other ranged professions. [I caused some serious grief on Dant today to the local fauna 
]
]The Hate system is broken. No doubt.
It will be fixed. No doubt.
I imagine it will be fixed in the short term, as it doesnt allow for the 'roles' that have been vaunted in the docs to properly work.
supersparc
Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:57 am
#9
jopenack wrote:The hate system dictates your role not the profession, and playing games with dot's, taunts, using lower weapons or dabling instead of mastering to work around it is not a fix.Professions are supposed to dictate roles not tricking the hate sytem. It will be changed its just a matter of when.
This doesnt make sense. DOTs and taunts are skills. Skills are earned through professions. Using you skills, earned through your profession is how you influence a hate system.
The hate system doesnt work for one simple reason. The same reason it hasnt worked for nearly 2 years. SWG has never had a good taunt ability. If Melee/Tank/CH players had a legit taunt, it would not matter how much you healed for or how much you damaged for.
Pets should get a new special that generates hate. Then, when a CH takes a tanking role he tells his/her pet to spam the special.
This isnt meant as a flame. However, I dont want to go throught the same thing we did 2 years ago. They decided to tweak the system before they fixed. Fix the system. Give the would be tanks a real, hate-generating taunt ability.
spreadsheet
Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:06 am
#10
Yup, pets need a taunt, TKA need a taunt that works. Will there be changes in the next 2-3 months....yup. But why are we paying to play -caugh- "beta" ?? Man, I love this game and I am not sure I can sit it out the 2 or 3 months they need to get this to what it should be. They are obviously on some timeframe to get this out and it is coming out no matter how messed up it is. I have read many of the other prof forums and none of the corrs new this was going to happen! Talk about shoveling the @#$. Well I am going to give it my best attempt. It is not all bad (alot of good changes) and if we can hang in there it might be playable.
-Elder Medic-
jopenack
Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:21 am
#11
Don't worry I don't take it as a flame,
This is my take on the use of specials to "have pets tank at all". As defined by the devs pets can assume multiple roles. assuming your pet is used as a tank, It should be able to tank without dots or commands being constantly spammed. I was on TC anda melee character had to constantly spamm taunt to keep agro away from me (rifleman). spamming taunt and only taunt is not fun for anyone, now picture yourself as a ch spamming comand to keep agro on pets leaves you little room to do much of anything else.
Do you see my point now. command's like taunt, or dot's should be used to suppliment our pets in the tanking department not become the only means to make them tanks.
Its like the agressive bug right now, If you call your pet he runs off to snack on a nearby durni. you have to spamm the folow command and wait for the timer to click down to store him if he was in combat for a second. spamming the follow command to keep him next to you does not mean that"this is what the follow command is for" its just a pain in the butt workaround for a problem (bug). Using or spamming any special to hold agro is the same thing. a workaround for a problem (Big Bug)
Oh forgot to add this, the hate system targets the highest damage deliverer. A better taunt command will still be a short term fix since the messages the mob recieves with every hit is "target xyz".
taunt is not so much as the problem as the hate sytem itself. As I said before maybe npc's should be able to decide to target a large damage dealer. but a creature instictivly would go after the closest thing attacking it
Message Edited by jopenack on 04-27-2005 12:26 PM
supersparc
Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 am
#13
I got a slightly different view. I agree taunt is a tool and should not need to be spammed. But that is just a matter of tuning. 2 ways I see doing that for melee classes. Make all melee specials do damage and generate hate or make a few specials that generate a massive amount of hate.
Hate control is really the job of a good tank. They need to make sure they can pull an attacker from a healer and make sure they can mitigate the damage once they get it. What if your healer accidently backs into a lair of rancors? Thats a huge reason to have a good taunt. That taunt needs to be able to out-pace the damage done by a rifleman or the healing of a healer. That is truly the essence of a taunt....to get more hate. Without a hate system, the tank could never pull a MOB off a Doc or a Rifleman.
If a tank could just hit for more than a rifleman each time, why would you ever be a rifleman? So a tank needs a way to get aggro without outdamaging a rifleman. The only way I know of is through a Hate system.
Granted, its not immersive to have a pet decide to attack someone because they are doing more damage. But, its more fun if the MOB doesnt just stick to the first person that hits it.
TKs should have to think about mainting a balance between the damage they do and performing their tanking job. But, I realize that is just an opinion.
Like in a Rodeo, you need to get the bull away from the rider. You do whatever you can to taunt the bull.
Hate control is really the job of a good tank. They need to make sure they can pull an attacker from a healer and make sure they can mitigate the damage once they get it. What if your healer accidently backs into a lair of rancors? Thats a huge reason to have a good taunt. That taunt needs to be able to out-pace the damage done by a rifleman or the healing of a healer. That is truly the essence of a taunt....to get more hate. Without a hate system, the tank could never pull a MOB off a Doc or a Rifleman.
If a tank could just hit for more than a rifleman each time, why would you ever be a rifleman? So a tank needs a way to get aggro without outdamaging a rifleman. The only way I know of is through a Hate system.
Granted, its not immersive to have a pet decide to attack someone because they are doing more damage. But, its more fun if the MOB doesnt just stick to the first person that hits it.
TKs should have to think about mainting a balance between the damage they do and performing their tanking job. But, I realize that is just an opinion.
Like in a Rodeo, you need to get the bull away from the rider. You do whatever you can to taunt the bull.
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