CUEmu - Thread Posts

ScoutMastr

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:54 am

JodoKai wrote:

ScoutMastr wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but I'd love to have a blurrg raptor as my "companion" on those dangerous trips through the wilderness.

Sure you would, I mean what CH wouldn't. The problem is that if you go to the rifleman boards they want their T21 to do 2k damage with a speed of 1.7, and the pistoleers want to keep thier speed but want their pistols to do more damage. It's all about balancing everything out in the big picture.

As far as is CH a combat class or not it really doesn't matter one way or the other does it? If you want to call it combat and someone else wants to call it combat support, that is totally irrelevant. The class is what it is, and if we want to try to get the devs to make it something other than what it is right now, there are some serious hurdles that need to be overcome. The people who want it to change need to come up with viable solutions to the balance issues.

Personally (and this is only my opinion) I don't think CH is going to change. I don't think it will ever be as combat heavy as TKA because of the balance issues, and the amount of work that would have to go into the changes. I also believe though, that after the combat rebalance, people will need CH's a lot more than they used to. I think people will need tanks again once buffs and armor gets nerfed. I know, I know everyone is sick of that answer.

The problem is the devs keep trying to balance combat professions...no one would bring a knife to a gun fight, if you fight with knives, you should choose your opponents more wisely, or use appropriate tactics. If I'm a martial artist, I'm not going to challenge a person who sports an automatic weapon--but then who'd want to be a martial artist?...answer: anyone who wants to be a martial artist, they just have to accept their limitations when it comes to ranged fighters--having limitations forced, or making someone uber powerful to compensate, does not truly equal balance--the balance should come from a player's understanding of their role, and the rules in the game should support it. No one should be able to enter a city with a weapon equipped--it's ridiculous unless you're an officer of that city. What does that mean?... it means that if you are in a city, and equip a weapon to fight someone, then the local law npc's should fire on you also, unless your faction is supported--even then you should be instructed to put the firearm away, and it auto-stores. An unarmed fighter wouldn't have that same problem unless heattacks the city's npc's or allied faction. Even though they don't fire upon the brawler, they should break up the fight, andfine them for disturbing the peace, or the combatants could just kill the officers and get back to business--you see, it shouldn't be impossible to duel/PVP in cities, but there should be repercussions. If ppl want to duel in the cities, there should be an arena structure that allows dueling, but no db. No civilization would condone what happens in our cities in this game.

What does this mean for CH's? We should be able to have mount sized and smaller pets out in cities, but not the ground shakers, if you bust one out, you should get fined by the local law enforcers. Here's the thing, the fine is optional just like the imp searches, you could decide to become an outlaw and just kill everything the city throws at you. If you pay the fine, the pet auto-stores, or you could just command it to step on the officer...you'd be a wanted criminal, but hey, that's fun too. All fines should still be there, in fact if you killed an officer the fine quadruples or something, and the only way to get off their most wanted list is to pay all your fines by terminal or something, otherwise visiting some cities would be a problem for you.

I don't know...the combat rebalance is supposedly a REVAMP, meaning the combat SYSTEM is going to change too...maybe there's hope yet. If our creatures aren't more effective afterwards, then CH will need a another revamp.

~Galactic Spies of Mystery~
K'Bin Klo ~ Master Creature Handler - Master Bio-Engineer
J'Denn Klo ~ Master Bounty Hunter - Master Carbineer
S'Venn Klo
Lowca Rebel Alliance
Mojovia, Dantooine

JodoKai

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:21 am

#67

Some very good points...I'm just not seeing how they pertain to the current discussion?

ScoutMastr

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:39 pm

#68

JodoKai wrote:
Some very good points...I'm just not seeing how they pertain to the current discussion?

in your last post you made some comments about how all the combat professions want this or that, but the devs have to keep the overall balance--something like that. My way of thinking is that it's not a matter of making the combatants equal in power, but more able to fulfill their roles--it's really not acceptable to have an unarmed person take on a Rancor--that's ridiculous, but a master at unarmed fighting may have the right techniques to dodge and disarm a ranged opponent...the trick is getting to that opponent. They may not be as powerful as ranged opponents, but when the ranged become the non-ranged, they can incap them with little effort. Unarmed players should get stealth mods that can make them at times not show up on ranged players' radars--afterall, they can't just run straight up to pistoleer without taking two to the head, they have to be sneaky. If a playeruses a sword, why not a shield? Swordsman should have equipable arm mounted shields capable of blocking blaster bolts, this would allow them to charge ranged players, with the other melee classes close behind...of course the shields aren't 100%, so some times you'll make it, sometimes you won't.

These are just ideas that I and others have had over the whole combat system, and the governing mechanics of the game. I brought them up because I think, every now and then, the attempts at what they're calling "balance" is misguided at best. That's why so many are upset at how weak rancors are--rancors are supposed to be BMF's, therefore those that are able to control them should also be BMF's. When we sic a rancor on an unarmed player or npc, that should be instant death unless he/she is a jedi. The CL70's should be the end-game against most melee players, they should fear our high-level pets much more than a ranged player--although "high level" means armor, and even ranged players shouldn't always be able to penetrate the armor before the pet reaches them. Also, our pets should be aware of what kills us so that they keep fighting after we die--it's silly to have our pets set to guard us,only we go down by another enemy while our pets are preoccupied, then have our pets return to our corpse standing right beside our slayer smelling of our blood...it's laughable..."why are you just standing there?...AVENGE ME!!!"

I certainly can ramble! Anyway, we're a combat profession that should make other combat professions supreme fighters if combined, no if's, and's, or but's. Why people can't, or just won't accept that is beyond me. Being able to use your other combat profession at the same time as CH, is a bonus to your capabilities--some want it to be a miniscule bonus, I want it to be a tremendous bonus--which brings me to combining, or enhancing you combat profession with Force Sensitive Skills...........EXCELLENT!!!!!!....glad they made that happen atleast!

~Galactic Spies of Mystery~
K'Bin Klo ~ Master Creature Handler - Master Bio-Engineer
J'Denn Klo ~ Master Bounty Hunter - Master Carbineer
S'Venn Klo
Lowca Rebel Alliance
Mojovia, Dantooine

JodoKai

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:36 pm

#69

Okay I see what you're getting at. I think you kind of have to suspened what is logical and what would really happen for the sake of the game. For example, the Empire would never allow as many aliens in the military, let alone be Colonels that are in right now, but for the sake of the players who want to play a Rodian Imperial Colonel Smuggler (another oxymoron how can an Imperial be a smuggler?) that has to be suspended. I feel for this reason that all the combat professions need to be balanced. Pistols are faster but do less damage, Carbines are mid damage/mid speed but have a lot of specials (let's leave the fact that the specials kill carbineers faster than whatever they are fighting out of this discussion

), and TKA's hit pretty hard and pretty fast, but they have no range. It's all about letting people play the character they want to play regardless of how things would really be.

Dodece

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:55 pm

#70

Mission level dosent mean boe diddly squat. If you die with no problem at pvp. If the system is that scewed 95 to pve and 5 to pvp. Then I can rightfully say. That your not a combatant your a hunter. The ch is like a squad leader in so many ways its scarey. I can show you point by point. Each member of these classes use their skills to increase the attack power of a team mate. SL is merely for pc, and ch is for npc. Without your guidance a creature pet is inactive no combat potential. Both classes rely on team mates to provide potential combat ability. Both classes provide stat modifiers to their pet classes. Be it terrain negotiation for sl, of the chs enrage commands. By the way SL never came out working quite right. It still is not working like it should which is a shame. I remember when squadleaders could actively move other players to a new location.

Anyway both classes are remarkably similar in how they work. No they are not exact duplicates, but they are very similar. Now a ch on ch basis alone. Is a very easy kill. The only way a pet will take a combat down is if that combat is just complete number. Gee I guess I will kill this rancor. Instead of going and killing its master peaceing the pet and running off. Anyother fighting class will lay down more damage on you then a pet lays on him. End result you will run out of ham first. You will die. Another combat class might be weak a master marksman might be weak, but based on that players skill mods. It is possible no matter how unlikely that he will kill even the highest level of combat. If that master marksman plays the cards right. In other words a master marksman has a better chance of takeing down a commando bh pistoleer riflemen carbineer tka pikemen swordsman. Then a ch does.

By the way there is hardly a mob in the game that a ranged fighter cannot take out given enough time and diehard desire. I used my master weaponsmith who only had four boxes in pistol to put down a mountain squill lair. It took me three to four hours. Alot of running around, but eventually I took it down. So the level mission you can draw with a grouped pet is no reflection on your combat potential.

Combat is equal parts pve and pvp. If you can do one but not the other then your not a combat. A combat support is a class of player that provides a bonus that the entire team can share in. Be it a cm poisoning the target to it will take less effort to kill. To a squad leader giveing a volley fire bonus. To a ch provideing a powerful meat sheild that will decrease the damage that team members will take. A ch is not a combat, but it is a great bonus to add ontop of a combat, or to provide great team support. If nothing else will convince you do the damage math. Whatever is doing the most damage is the combat whatever is supply a distant less damage is the combat support. Your pet is your combat support. It supports you in a way that enables you to do more damage.

JodoKai

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:18 pm

#71

raynedog wrote:
Ok my question is, if we say you're right Ch is just like SL or CH is a combat proffesion...........so now what?
What's the end point of this debate. Debate for the fun of it is great but if everyone agrees that you're right...then what?
Regarless of if the majority think it's support or combat i don't think changes what improvments we are striving for or what needs to be fixed.
but if it's debate for debates sake then i'm down with that

I think this is only the begining of the debate. Once everyone agrees that CH is a pure combat profession the next part is, it should be as strong as a combat profession as TKA etc.

Even if my assumptions are correct, it is still irrelavent as CH is what it is, like I said before. If the people that want it to be/think it is a Combat Profession want it to be on par with TKA they have to find ways to balance things.

Scout,
Saying it's okay for CH to be as powerful as TKA (if that is in fact what you're saying) and that it's all right to use your other combat profession, if you have one, with it is, IMO, totally wrong. Can you imagine if that theroy followed thorugh with all professions? Imagine someone doing Eye Shot with a Flamethrower. Or imagine a pistoleer/rifleman that could Mindshot3 you with his 1.2 Speed pistol. That would just get ugly, but if the Dev's allowed CH's to use two combat professions at the same time, everyone would have to be allowed.

Dodece

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:11 pm

#72

Excellent point. It is elitest mumbo jumbo. To be fair a ch could not be anything else. Infact a ch would need to even have its ability to use cdefs and survival knives taken away. They would also need to be able to go invisible so that a opponent couldnt attack them. A ch would need to have an umbilical cord attached to the pet it incaps you die. People are just not reasoning out what they are saying.

The ch profession has some holes in it. Nothing that cannot be gotten around. Mastery in most professions is well within a chs reach. Yes the TKAs are out of line. You can ask any tka that, and they will for the most part agree. Its way too good. They need not got any support skills, because it is way too good. The pikemen and swordsmen. Will come more in line when the buffs get cut. Right now their heavy ham moves are too easy to spray. Which they were never meant to do in the first place. These are things that the rebalance will sort out.

Even with that the ch is a great support class in the game. The added bonuses of haveing a pet out equal out to the difficulty of pulling it off. Since you have to control more things to do it. Some people say well maybe they can make it so a profession will not stack with the ch. Well to be fair that would mean that a ch would have to have like a three minute timer on useing weapons after the pet finally incapped. Also is that really fair. To make someone upon loseing a pet stand there, and get beaten to death in slow motion by a spent opponent. If you let the ch supercharge the pet throughout. You still have the effect that. After the pet goes down they still got to deal with you.

You can say well make it so a ch can only be a ch and nothing else. That equals fair, but only fair to the ch in the end. You would have to say to mister pistoleer commando riflemen. Hey we are special. You want to tell the other professions they cannot get elitist status to push out dabblers in their fields. You might say well make ch require that you master scout. Trust me I am a master bh its a diservice to you. Do that to make the profession stronger, and you still have the problem that if its worth it people will do it. I remember when pistoleers would eat the scout just to get the bh pistols tree. People would do it. So why would you want to burden yourself with content that is hardly applicable to a ch. Camping and trapping may have some value to a ranger, because it carries over into their profession. Though do you really want to have camps and traps you will not use. Thats not fun content. Infact it stands in the way of you getting fun content.

Its a combat support profession. It cannot be a combat profession. Combat professions can only double over so much. I might go get pistoleer, and shave a second off my time, but I cannot use the dx2 at the same time I use my scatter, and i have more shots, but I cannot use them at the same time. To make the ch a combat class. It would have to function exactly like every other combat class. You would need to manualy use specials with your pet. Costing you ham points. Everytime that pet takes a hit. That hit would have to transfer right into you. You would not be allowed to wear armor or carry weapons. Your armor and weapon would be the pet. You would only be allowed to use pet stims no stim bs. In the end for this class to be a combat primary class. You would only be makeing a funky looking avatar. My avatar is a guy in armor. Your avatar is a creature with a person folloing behind it. You might aswell save the trouble, and just strap the humanoid avatar component on the back of the beast. Then change the in head perspective to what the creature sees.

To make this class into a combat class. You have to destroy all that it is now. You would need to destroy the distinction between player and pet. Would there even be a ch class. No you would have sentient critter class. The person avatar would just simply be used to go into buildings go get stuff. I guess my question is this. Do you want to play the profession like this.

Cudayn

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:22 pm

#73

I have an idea, and my vision of a CH is as a combat class by the way, why not add a switch to the coding such as - CH + (insert all other combat profs here) = true, then your pets stay the way they are now. If, however, its - CH + (insert all other combat classes here) = false, then let the pets have 1/4 more resistances/HAM and add 1/4 - 1/2 more damage to our pets. I would be happy with just more damage. Maybe not twice as strong, as in my suggestion I mentioned only 1/4 - 1/2 stronger damage because of BE'd pets.

With this solution no one can complain about having Uber Pets and an Uber combat profession (Bounty Hunter). Pets are already a joke in PvP anyhow, so maybe if they let this be across the board it might even help in PvP?

Well just my 2 measly creds...

Dunk Wunklin (Lowca)

4,3,3,4 CH / 4,4,2,4 Ranger / 4,4,0,0 Medic

Edited for typos

Message Edited by Cudayn on 07-13-2004 10:23 PM

Cudayn

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:06 pm

#74

A quick note about the combat class or support class........

CH is awesome support PvE for the "meat shield", but in PvP, my Master Commando can fry that pet in one or two shots, if I can't see the owner that is. We all agree on this.

However, just because a profession is not good in PvP, does not a support class make. Buy the same logic as, good PvE, bad PvP = not a combat class, then the same must apply to defining a support class. CHs are not a support class in PvP, but can be great support in PvE, if he is allowed to control aggro. So since he can only support in PvE, that means CH is not a support class.

Where are we now?

I have two friends I run with, and if they are not around I solo. My pets are my fists, I can kill 75% of the animal population ( best guess ) with no trouble at all. I can tackle missions unbuffed AND unarmored that another combat profession, with the lone exception of rifleman,can not complete. It takes me three times as long to do itand I have to use sound tactics. Warning / threaten shot are great, if they work, but you are going to get pounded into the dirt if you try to fight even a Delirious Merek Avenger, let alone a Deaths Head since they are so social. If you have ever fought a lair full of em and lived without buffs or armor, my hats off to ya.

I am pretty sure I am a combat class.

Dunk Wunklin (Lowca)

4,3,3,4 CH / 4,4,2,4 Ranger / 4,4,0,0 Medic

Dunk Wunklin (Shadowfire)

Master Commando / Master Smuggler

Dodece

Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:18 am

#75

Actually ch is pvp is very nice. Especially against those that that decide to go in sans armor. Its almost like a fire and forget weapon. Locate the guy that the pet will do wonders against and sick the pet on him. The difference is pvp pve group fighting useing a pet must be done differently. You cannot just set a pet lose in a mob of players. It just wont last long enough. Instead hold the pet back for a few moments. Until the other players settle up with their opponents, and then go about setting the beast at random on the other team, or work on another support class target, that will have a heck of a time with a pet.

If you do it right you can easily split the bonus among many players on your team. If you have enough wit you can be ordering your pet to poison someone else. While you are dukeing it out with another guy.

Your nota combat your a combat support. A combat is equally valid in both pvp and pve. You also do not function as anyother combat. It is not because you are unique either. Your a support class. The support class rules apply to you. You do not use weapons. You do not use armor. Your rules about healing are different. You can even group with yourself.

I am no rocket scientist, but if I am looking for a duck and see a bird with tallons, a curved beak and giant eyes. Well I know thats an owl not a duck. Now I am sorry if you want to be a true combat, but it is not true. There is no stigma attached to being a combat support profession that I can see. It simply means your role in the game is different then a combat class. That comes with some down sides, but also it come with some upsides. Enjoy it for what it gives you.

raynedog

Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:23 am

#76

I would be intrested to see what folks in this thread think about my Mounted Combat Skill ideas

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=creature_handler&message.id=187793&highlight=raynedog#M187793

MCH /---\ MBH /---\ MHS / --\ FS

Cudayn

Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:28 am

#77

Dodece wrote:

Your nota combat your a combat support. A combat is equally valid in both pvp and pve. You also do not function as anyother combat. It is not because you are unique either. Your a support class. The support class rules apply to you. You do not use weapons. You do not use armor. Your rules about healing are different. You can even group with yourself.

Even though you have been shown a direct quote from a dev, you still insist that CH is a support class. Well my friend, that is just your opinion, however whenI call myself a combat class,I have a developer quote telling me I am a combat class.

I can, with tactics, PvP well, just like you stated, but I do not truely offer any PvP group an edge that can change the tide of battle, unless its dumb luck. If I had to slot out a PvP 20 man group, CH is not on the list. I disagree with your stating that we are even a support class in PvP, as everyone I know that seriously PvPs will never be caught without armor, though sometimes without buffs.

Big deal, kill the handler, end of story.

Your theory about what makes a combat class vs a support classonly works if you can validate the point about a CH being a support PvP class, and IMHO you have not.

I can solo very well, I thought my previous post illustrated that point. I have nothing but my pets to protect and kill for me. My pets are my weapons, they are my armor. Lets see a rifleman hold a rifle in his data pad for a week until it matures before he can be truely effective with it. My pet, when it gets incapped by a DBing creature, loses vitality, period. Are pets that we use to hunt with that do lose vitality not concidered a weapon? I can not keep a pet forever unless I do not risk it in combat. Same goes for a weapon, unless you use it. it will not decay (Not taking the Clone Decay factor as concideration here because you can insure it, its a choice or you can store it in your home or deposit box).

Before "The Great CH Nerf"AKA the first wave of the Combat Rebalance, pets were very effective in PvP, to effective. Once the "Almightyfull Combat Balance" happens we will be on a more equal footing again.

Dodece wrote:

I am no rocket scientist, but if I am looking for a duck and see a bird with tallons, a curved beak and giant eyes. Well I know thats an owl not a duck. Now I am sorry if you want to be a true combat, but it is not true. There is no stigma attached to being a combat support profession that I can see. It simply means your role in the game is different then a combat class. That comes with some down sides, but also it come with some upsides. Enjoy it for what it gives you.

I know I am not a rocket scientist, but if you do not need any other professions to make yourself a viable combat character, which is the case for CH, you are a combat profession. I do not need to group to be an effective killer, thus who doI support? My pets? Yes I do support my pets and they support me, and its a symbiotic relationship that becomes a whole. OtherwiseI have to go tell all my pets thatI am afraid we can no longer solo Klikniks, Mereks, etc, because Dodece said we were a support class, and as every one knows a support class has to have inter-dependability on others to survive.

Dunk Wunklin (Lowca)

4,3,3,4 Combat CH / 4,4,2,4 Ranger / 4,4,0,0 Medic

Message Edited by Cudayn on 07-14-2004 10:55 AM

JodoKai

Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:37 am

#78

Cudayn wrote:

I can solo very well, I thought my previous post illustrated that point. I have nothing but my pets to protect and kill for me. My pets are my weapons, they are my armor. Lets see a rifleman hold a rifle in his data pad for a week until it matures before he can be truely effective with it. My pet, when it gets incapped by a DBing creature, loses vitality, period. Are pets that we use to hunt with that do lose vitality not concidered a weapon? I can not keep a pet forever unless I do not risk it in combat. Same goes for a weapon, unless you use it. it will not decay (Not taking the Clone Decay factor as concideration here because you can insure it, its a choice or you can store it in your home or deposit box).

I'm not going to get into the combat class, or combat support argument as I've said before it's irrelavent (and just because you can quote a Dev, doesn't make it a fact, if you don't believe that I'll show you a bunch of examples), but I have a Rancor that I got when I first made novice CH and could pull him. I still have him and use him quite often. This was about 9 months ago. Show me a rifleman/pistoleer/swordsman that has had the same "weapon" for 9 months.

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Thread: ONE more time..Creature Handler IS a combat profession