Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Reply from Vass about Jedi mind trick commands...
ScoutMastr wrote:
I may be the only one looking past this as a game balance/profession breaking issue, and more of a Star Wars issue. The fact is, as MCH/MBE/Pistoleer0040, there is no way I'm even supposed to try to take down a jedi, unless I'm grouped with 15 other combat professionals--even then it should be extremely risky...this enhances that risk. I do think that jedi should be able to temporarily disarm ranged or melee players, or seriously damage the condition of their weapons--in all the movies/books it seems the Jedi are using the force/lightsaber to dis-'arm' some one.
No I've pointedly stated in other threads that the fact that it exists in the movies and books is not relative to a massively marketed game. That is the whole issue, who cares whats in the books if that same ability ruins a game for the masses. Since publish 9 and all the jedi have come out of the wood works like cockroaches its not very pretty. It is obvious how out of balance things already are.
Heck I was in the squill caves with a group when another group with 2 jedi arrive. We simply had to leave, the jedi were killing all the spawn so fast we could hardly get any squill. When we finally got a group of squill to agro us one of the jedi runs by and swings kill stealing 5 as he just ran by.
No game meant for a mass audience can survive when one or two character types dominate the game and that is what is happening here. SOE developers have completely lost site of the fact that the majority don't want to be jedi or forced to learn force skills just to be able to participate. Every role has to have meaning or be removed. Right now the only roles that appear to have meaning are Jedi, bounty hunter, and TKM. So I guess the message from SOE is that they mistakenly placed the games timeline after episode 6 and are now moving it back to episode 1 where the jedi were in powernot in decline. If this is true we all need to go jedi or quit because no other professions will be fun.
I've been in games where this kind of imbalance occurred and that game now sees peaks of 50 people on line and cheer when they hit 60 online.
LyteFoot wrote:
ScoutMastr wrote:
I may be the only one looking past this as a game balance/profession breaking issue, and more of a Star Wars issue. The fact is, as MCH/MBE/Pistoleer0040, there is no way I'm even supposed to try to take down a jedi, unless I'm grouped with 15 other combat professionals--even then it should be extremely risky...this enhances that risk. I do think that jedi should be able to temporarily disarm ranged or melee players, or seriously damage the condition of their weapons--in all the movies/books it seems the Jedi are using the force/lightsaber to dis-'arm' some one.
No I've pointedly stated in other threads that the fact that it exists in the movies and books is not relative to a massively marketed game. That is the whole issue, who cares whats in the books if that same ability ruins a game for the masses. Since publish 9 and all the jedi have come out of the wood works like cockroaches its not very pretty. It is obvious how out of balance things already are.
I think this is the real problem, not their abilities. There's nothing for the Jedi to fear at this moment, perhaps when lightsaber defenses or the combat rebalance finally happens, then Jedi will be a bit more shy.
Heck I was in the squill caves with a group when another group with 2 jedi arrive. We simply had to leave, the jedi were killing all the spawn so fast we could hardly get any squill. When we finally got a group of squill to agro us one of the jedi runs by and swings kill stealing 5 as he just ran by.
Unfortunately this happens when any profession is able to out-damage another, not just Jedi.
No game meant for a mass audience can survive when one or two character types dominate the game and that is what is happening here. SOE developers have completely lost site of the fact that the majority don't want to be jedi or forced to learn force skills just to be able to participate. Every role has to have meaning or be removed. Right now the only roles that appear to have meaning are Jedi, bounty hunter, and TKM. So I guess the message from SOE is that they mistakenly placed the games timeline after episode 6 and are now moving it back to episode 1 where the jedi were in powernot in decline. If this is true we all need to go jedi or quit because no other professions will be fun.
The problem you are describing is inevitable only because of one thing--this will blow your mind...MMORPG's aren't actually being played as "ROLE" playing games. If someone were to actually role play a Jedi, they'd probably have to cook up a scenario with other role players to even have a reason to be in the squill caves--even then, they wouldn't behave in the manner described above. Read the role players board--that stuff sounds so fun and different from what I've been doing with this game, that I'm tempted to start role playing. For the role playing community, if most of these kinds of ppl were to suddenly cancel and move on to the next game, they'd probably be okay with it--although SOE wouldn't.
I've been in games where this kind of imbalance occurred and that game now sees peaks of 50 people on line and cheer when they hit 60 online.
ScoutMastr wrote:
I may be the only one looking past this as a game balance/profession breaking issue, and more of a Star Wars issue. The fact is, as MCH/MBE/Pistoleer0040, there is no way I'm even supposed to try to take down a jedi, unless I'm grouped with 15 other combat professionals--even then it should be extremely risky...this enhances that risk. I do think that jedi should be able to temporarily disarm ranged or melee players, or seriously damage the condition of their weapons--in all the movies/books it seems the Jedi are using the force/lightsaber to dis-'arm' some one.
I do think that this animal charming ability should serioulsy drain their force pool or something--it should require a lot of concentration. Maybe it could drain it according to CL--if they successfully turn a CL50+ pet against us, then they should be weakened more than turning a CL10 creature.
All in all, this ability doesn't break CH's, it just makes us more wary of using our abilities against a jedi, as it should be.
btw, I have not unlocked and haven't even tried hologrinding--I may do the quests when publish 10 comes around, but that's for the extra slot!
That's all fine and dandy in a galaxy with 3 or 4 jedi. We have hundreds in each galaxy. Don't tell us we should accept it since it may have possibley happened in a book somewhere, jedi don't worry about conforming and neither should we. Reality is that "calm" was used once in the movies. I would think that if a Jedi knight could really turn a creature on its master that Old Ben would have done so with the Ackley in EP2. Luke was a Jedi Knight in ROTJ...funny, I don't remember him even scaring the Rancor....let alone turn it on its master.
We aren't asking to be able to kill jedi like we are steamrollers. We just don't see the idea of turning the pets of a Creature Handler against them as anything more than a GREIF tactic used by jedi to entertain themselves and their friends in a "Hey watch me have this guyspet beat up and kill him! lolol Muhahahaha I am an Uber L33t J3D 3y3!!!!!1!!!!1111"
KJFett wrote:
ScoutMastr wrote:
I may be the only one looking past this as a game balance/profession breaking issue, and more of a Star Wars issue. The fact is, as MCH/MBE/Pistoleer0040, there is no way I'm even supposed to try to take down a jedi, unless I'm grouped with 15 other combat professionals--even then it should be extremely risky...this enhances that risk. I do think that jedi should be able to temporarily disarm ranged or melee players, or seriously damage the condition of their weapons--in all the movies/books it seems the Jedi are using the force/lightsaber to dis-'arm' some one.
I do think that this animal charming ability should serioulsy drain their force pool or something--it should require a lot of concentration. Maybe it could drain it according to CL--if they successfully turn a CL50+ pet against us, then they should be weakened more than turning a CL10 creature.
All in all, this ability doesn't break CH's, it just makes us more wary of using our abilities against a jedi, as it should be.
btw, I have not unlocked and haven't even tried hologrinding--I may do the quests when publish 10 comes around, but that's for the extra slot!
That's all fine and dandy in a galaxy with 3 or 4 jedi. We have hundreds in each galaxy. Don't tell us we should accept it since it may have possibley happened in a book somewhere, jedi don't worry about conforming and neither should we. Reality is that "calm" was used once in the movies. I would think that if a Jedi knight could really turn a creature on its master that Old Ben would have done so with the Ackley in EP2. Luke was a Jedi Knight in ROTJ...funny, I don't remember him even scaring the Rancor....let alone turn it on its master.
We aren't asking to be able to kill jedi like we are steamrollers. We just don't see the idea of turning the pets of a Creature Handler against them as anything more than a GREIF tactic used by jedi to entertain themselves and their friends in a "Hey watch me have this guyspet beat up and kill him! lolol Muhahahaha I am an Uber L33t J3D 3y3!!!!!1!!!!1111"
In that same scene with Obi fighting the Ackley, we actually did see Anakin use Jedi techniques on the creature trying to kill him...beyond that, it's common knowledge in the EU, that Jedi have the ability to affect some creatures.
Read my post above and you'll see that I mostly agree with the idea of conforming to our roles in this galaxy...I jedi shouldn't be out there griefing, instead a Jedi should be out seeking justice, hiding from the Empire, or helping the Rebel cause--either that or becoming an instrument of evil.
ScoutMastr wrote:
KJFett wrote:
ScoutMastr wrote:
I may be the only one looking past this as a game balance/profession breaking issue, and more of a Star Wars issue. The fact is, as MCH/MBE/Pistoleer0040, there is no way I'm even supposed to try to take down a jedi, unless I'm grouped with 15 other combat professionals--even then it should be extremely risky...this enhances that risk. I do think that jedi should be able to temporarily disarm ranged or melee players, or seriously damage the condition of their weapons--in all the movies/books it seems the Jedi are using the force/lightsaber to dis-'arm' some one.
I do think that this animal charming ability should serioulsy drain their force pool or something--it should require a lot of concentration. Maybe it could drain it according to CL--if they successfully turn a CL50+ pet against us, then they should be weakened more than turning a CL10 creature.
All in all, this ability doesn't break CH's, it just makes us more wary of using our abilities against a jedi, as it should be.
btw, I have not unlocked and haven't even tried hologrinding--I may do the quests when publish 10 comes around, but that's for the extra slot!
That's all fine and dandy in a galaxy with 3 or 4 jedi. We have hundreds in each galaxy. Don't tell us we should accept it since it may have possibley happened in a book somewhere, jedi don't worry about conforming and neither should we. Reality is that "calm" was used once in the movies. I would think that if a Jedi knight could really turn a creature on its master that Old Ben would have done so with the Ackley in EP2. Luke was a Jedi Knight in ROTJ...funny, I don't remember him even scaring the Rancor....let alone turn it on its master.
We aren't asking to be able to kill jedi like we are steamrollers. We just don't see the idea of turning the pets of a Creature Handler against them as anything more than a GREIF tactic used by jedi to entertain themselves and their friends in a "Hey watch me have this guyspet beat up and kill him! lolol Muhahahaha I am an Uber L33t J3D 3y3!!!!!1!!!!1111"
In that same scene with Obi fighting the Ackley, we actually did see Anakin use Jedi techniques on the creature trying to kill him...beyond that, it's common knowledge in the EU, that Jedi have the ability to affect some creatures.
Read my post. The tactic of "calm" that I said was used is what Anikan used. The creatures that are 99% of the time affect by jedi in the EU are ones controled by either common folks (not CHs) or wild beasts with no master. And jedi are at EXTREME risk when trying to do that with wild creatures or with pets of CHs who are already severly loyal to a person.
Read my post above and you'll see that I mostly agree with the idea of conforming to our roles in this galaxy...I jedi shouldn't be out there griefing, instead a Jedi should be out seeking justice, hiding from the Empire, or helping the Rebel cause--either that or becoming an instrument of evil.
Vass
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
What you are failing to understand is that the Jedi Mind trick completely disables an entire class from the GCW. Right now, few players use it. That could change due to any other reballance you put in the game. WE don't know who can use it, and who can't. you cannot justify ANY player having the ability to completely negate another class in that fashion.
No other class can take another classes weapon away from a combatant in a fight and use it against them WHILE using their own skills as well, at the same level as the combatant. That's what's happening here. It's the equivilent of our rancors being able to take a lightsaber from a Jedi and attack them with it while also hitting them with the rancor's own attack.
I need to give you a little refresher in MMO gameplay, I think. I know, it seems rude to do so as a player to a developer, but I need to.
NO class, regardless of how powerful, should be able to turn another players class completely against them without recourse. It makes ZERO difference how few players can do this. If one player can do it, its too much. HOW IS THAT FUN FOR THE CREATURE HANDLER? This is OUR GAME TOO.
Please reconsider. We're ruined enough as it is.
Vass:
First, NO offensive combat ability should work 100% of the time. If it does, then I would (personally) consider it to be broken.
Second, a CH can have multiple pets, so you're not completely disabled. I'm not trying to downplay the power of the ability here. I understand that taking one of your pets and turning it against you is very big. Just pointing out the fact.
Third, you state: "NO class, regardless of how powerful, should be able to turn another players class completely against them without recourse". Please see my first and second points above.
Please understand that I don't completely disagree with you. There is a balance issue here that is grossly in the favor of the Jedi. However, I don't think it's quite as bad as you think it is.
I appreciate your comments and will present them to the dev responsible. Just keep it civil. =)
Vass
Me:
On your first point, I agree, no ability should work 100% of the time. However, any ability that works even 1% of the time that takes a players skills away completely and uses it against them with no counter is too much. I understand that we are supposed to have a chance to call our pets back, but this is bugged; for many of us our pets alternately do and do not listen to commands. For an hour today, just as an example, I couldn't communicate with my pets for ten minute intervals, and it sometimes happened in combat.
On your second point, we can call more than one pet but first, that's useless and you as a developer (I should hope) would know that. Due to the CL cap as it stands no one in their right mind would call a non-bugged (ie. CL 0) low-level pet against a Jedi. They'd be dead in one hit. Second, even if we did somehow find an animal that stood up to them, then we'd have potentially two animals on us that we could do nothing about, so we're back at square one.
I'm afraid your comparision to points one or two to make your third point doesn't work. There still is no reason for any class to be able to take another class and strip it away completely any percent of the time. This game is supposed to be fun for all of us. Losing all of our abilities, which is what it comes down to, to another player with a single command is not fun at all. Jedi can cut us and our pets down with absolutely no effort and we are fine with that, that's what they do. But at least if we are in control we can heal our pets and feel like we might have a chance, just possibly. If we don't know whether or not we have that chance, why should we bother? You've eliminated us from a huge part of the game that your recent patches and developments have shown is pretty much now IS the game, whether we like it or not.
Please, remove the ability before it becomes a standard and can be used against other classes as well. This isn't fair to any player.
I'll update it if he responds.
He is in charge of Test Center, not development. He will talk with Keldarin (presumably) and that is all he can do. It is not his decision to make beyond that, even if he supports us 100%.
The fact that he is willing to hold the conversation with those that PM'd him says he is at least listening. Give him credit for that, please.
This whole issue hinges (for me at least) on the fact that my pet will attack me until I incap it. That gives the Jedi an unfair advantage over a CH that he doesn't have over any other profession. That is what makes it unbalancing.
KJFett wrote:
ScoutMastr wrote:
KJFett wrote:
ScoutMastr wrote:
I may be the only one looking past this as a game balance/profession breaking issue, and more of a Star Wars issue. The fact is, as MCH/MBE/Pistoleer0040, there is no way I'm even supposed to try to take down a jedi, unless I'm grouped with 15 other combat professionals--even then it should be extremely risky...this enhances that risk. I do think that jedi should be able to temporarily disarm ranged or melee players, or seriously damage the condition of their weapons--in all the movies/books it seems the Jedi are using the force/lightsaber to dis-'arm' some one.
I do think that this animal charming ability should serioulsy drain their force pool or something--it should require a lot of concentration. Maybe it could drain it according to CL--if they successfully turn a CL50+ pet against us, then they should be weakened more than turning a CL10 creature.
All in all, this ability doesn't break CH's, it just makes us more wary of using our abilities against a jedi, as it should be.
btw, I have not unlocked and haven't even tried hologrinding--I may do the quests when publish 10 comes around, but that's for the extra slot!
That's all fine and dandy in a galaxy with 3 or 4 jedi. We have hundreds in each galaxy. Don't tell us we should accept it since it may have possibley happened in a book somewhere, jedi don't worry about conforming and neither should we. Reality is that "calm" was used once in the movies. I would think that if a Jedi knight could really turn a creature on its master that Old Ben would have done so with the Ackley in EP2. Luke was a Jedi Knight in ROTJ...funny, I don't remember him even scaring the Rancor....let alone turn it on its master.
We aren't asking to be able to kill jedi like we are steamrollers. We just don't see the idea of turning the pets of a Creature Handler against them as anything more than a GREIF tactic used by jedi to entertain themselves and their friends in a "Hey watch me have this guyspet beat up and kill him! lolol Muhahahaha I am an Uber L33t J3D 3y3!!!!!1!!!!1111"
In that same scene with Obi fighting the Ackley, we actually did see Anakin use Jedi techniques on the creature trying to kill him...beyond that, it's common knowledge in the EU, that Jedi have the ability to affect some creatures.
Read my post. The tactic of "calm" that I said was used is what Anikan used. The creatures that are 99% of the time affect by jedi in the EU are ones controled by either common folks (not CHs) or wild beasts with no master. And jedi are at EXTREME risk when trying to do that with wild creatures or with pets of CHs who are already severly loyal to a person.
Yes, that was one of the effects the force had on that particular animal, however Anakin actually rode the beast and used it to attack the nice little kitty after his woman...that showed exceptional creature handling capability. I agree that not every creature should be able to be affected in this way,because of loyalty or whatever reason.
It's ironic that they would offer this skill to jedi, when it wouldprobably bejust aseasyfor a jedi use lightsaber skills to cut'm to pieces--why waste the skill points?
Read my post above and you'll see that I mostly agree with the idea of conforming to our roles in this galaxy...I jedi shouldn't be out there griefing, instead a Jedi should be out seeking justice, hiding from the Empire, or helping the Rebel cause--either that or becoming an instrument of evil.