Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Rune, Vert, and my great fellow CH's
Ko-aIri wrote:
And why do I, or anyone else, care numerically about how many people quit this profession? I've never seen any correspondent on ANY board say "Ok, this week we've lost 35 people who were XXX, and gained only 12." The people who really enjoy creature handler keep it. The people who don't do not. That is true of any profession. I'd say 90% of the people who dropped CH in the last several months did it because of the loss of power the class has experienced since launch. They wanted to be "uber" and we are no longer "uber" (now I'm discussing launch day uber). We are now mostly "balanced" and they are looking elsewhere for a profession to min/max. I say "see ya later, don't care" to those people. The other 10% have left because they are dissatisfied with our professions's bugs and shortcomings. But this is likely true of any profession.
well because if out of 500,000+ players if there are only (made up figure) 1000 MCH's then something is wrong with the profession. on the same token if out of 500,000+ players there are 499,999+ of that profession again something is wrong.
The Ch poplulation of the game went for way to large to way too small. You say balance, I say going from the strongest PvP'er to the weakest is not balance. Going from the strongest PvE'er to argueably the weakest of the elite classes is not balance (yes we are stronger than brawlers and marksmen and dammit we should be but a MCH should be stronger PvE than a 1/1/1/1 psitoleer with a droid and a BE'ed uber CL10 pet)
as to knowing how many are lost on a weekly basis, ya I have to agree who cares but a pre nerf pupulation and a post nerf population of MCH's and Novice CH's would be nice. if you lose (again made up number) 90% of a profession population again problem.
Pluto9Moon wrote:Ko,Because I do not want the job that means Vert is doing a good job? I mean you seem to say if I do not want the job then he should keep it forever no matter how crappy he is doing it.The one starred post comment? I do not deny those are my sentiments. If you want to call it immature, so be it. If it was some other spineless jellyfish? May they rot on a Arizona highway in 120 degree weather. My point is that I can take you saying it is a crappy post. That is another reason I do not want the job. If I write in anger it will lack the clarity that posts do deserve. Since it seems Freth and Talon may leave the profession soon, I think Tivo is the likely choice and more than likely the most respected.One thing you will not say is that I do not make my feelings known. Constructive 100% of the time maybe not. But I will not one star someone without saying why I disagree.Your reference to a post Vert made simply tells me he has a spreadsheet of the problems. It does not say anyone is aware of them other than he or we. For all I know, Rune is sitting in his office thinking that the CH community is 100% happy.No, you are 100% correct in the correspondent should not forward his and his only opinions or agenda. The most recent thread started by Vert however implies that he cannot start discussions on his own. Its genesis lies with Thunderheart. Someone that the community believes is out to doom and weaken our profession. For this reason alone, Vert should step down. It is no longer the communties wishes he is forwarding. But redirecting TH's wishes down on us.
No, I'm not saying because you don't want the job means Vertexon is doing a good job. I'm saying I think he is doing the best possible job with the tools that he is provided as an unpaid, non-employee of SOE tasked with the unenviable job of sorting through the hundreds of posts on this very volatile and flame-filled forum hoping to find a glimmer of some kind of constructive thought and pass it along to the developers.
To clarify, I don't think your posts as a whole, P9M, are crappy. I think what you said about the one-star was. Just to sort that out, I'm not trying to insult you.
My reference to Vertexon's post is really the genesis of this issue. Think about it, should a developer come here and say "Vertexon told us this today" everytime he presents them information, so that we have 100% proof the info is getting there? I think the fact that Vertexon maintains a spreadsheet of our important issues and obviously cares enough to put them together in one place and SAYS he is passing them along is sufficient enough for me to believe the issues are getting as far up the tree as they can get from him. The only special powers he has are the correspondant forums, and if they ignore him there, it's not his fault. Vertexon, you, Tivo, myself, anyone with the same tools has the same limits if it's cut off at the other end. Vertexon is doing the best possible with the tools that are given to him. I can't stress this enough, I don't see what other superhuman feats you think he can accomplish?
This really gets me... you said "The most recent thread started by Vert however implies that he cannot start discussions on his own. Its genesis lies with Thunderheart."
Yet, if you read the thread:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=creature_handler&message.id=166837
Vertexon's opening statement reads: "I've been starting up some discussions with TH regarding our requests for increased baby variety/rarity. To help me better represent our wishes, I thought it might be productive to start a discussion here."
I'd say that's starting a discussion on his own. He contacted TH, and is getting the ball rolling. And he's asking us for input. What more do you expect?
If your sentiments about Vertexon are representative of the majority of this community, I feel sorry that he has to deal with a bunch of people who lack the maturity and intelligence to realize that he is not God Almighty walking the Earth and he can only do so much, unless they promote him to an SOE employee in charge of creature handler design. It's NOT Vertexon's fault nothing gets fixed, the blame lies elsewhere.
I second that -- we need a new Correspondent. Too many brutal changes have occurred on this person's watch. I appreciate the time it takes to do such a job, but the facts are still clear: CH's have had more drastic changes and more long-term active bugs than any other profession, and I don't see passing on SOE-inspired questions like "Know Your Role" as very useful.
Please resign and give someone else a chance who can act as a better CH-profession advocate.
Freth wrote:
The point about Vert I've been trying to make all along in these threads is he doesn't communicate with us unless it's absolutely necessary. He picks and chooses his questions with the utmost scrutiny, which leaves the majority of the CH community out in the cold. The questions we want answered most are ignored while someone asks some off-the-wall question and boom a Vert post appears. It's not just Vert, it's TH too. There seems to only be one-way communication... from Vert to the devs (supposedly). As for sorting through hundreds of threads and making a spreadsheet, it's not rocket science and quite a few of us that spend hours on these threads anyway can discern the community's view on the profession quite easily and pick out commonalities. It wouldn't be hard in my opinion. Time consuming maybe, but not hard. Vert doesn't adequately communicate with CH's on a regular basis. Tidbits and scraps just don't cut it. You say he's doing the best he can. If he's doing his best then his best isn't good enough in my opinion. If I were correspondent (and no I don't want the job now since I've lost all hope in CH) I would at least be communicating with everyone on a regular basis. If you're interested in a subject such as CH it only makes sense that you'd be an active member here and sharing ideas along with the rest of us. Where's Vert's participation? He doesn't seem passionate about the job at all, about the profession. That's what we need in a correspondent. It seems to me that those taht can't see where we are coming from just haven't read the forums like we have or been around as long as we have to see this perfectly good profession go down the tubes. We've hit rock bottom, but they keep finding new lows for us... either in bugs or new crappy content (lol lately, they've been one and the same).
I'd say Vertexon posts only when it's generally helpful or important. What questions that need answered haven't been, except the "why don't we have certain creatures as tamable" question which is currently what he is discussing with Thunderheart? I really don't see what other pressing questions we have. We have bugs that need fixed, and all you can do there is pass info along, there's nothing to "answer."
Again, if Vertexon "takes sides" and is passionate about something, he's really not doing his job. If he says "yeah, we won't rest until they give us all the creatures CL 70 and under no matter what" that's not being objective and it won't get us anywhere. I much prefer him taking it up as a discussion point and having a back and forth with Thunderheart so he can see where we're coming from and we might be able to get an answer about where the devs are coming from than have Vertexon post demanding, threatening posts and getting absolutely zero attention because he's not taken seriously.
Warning: Juvenile Section Alert:
Look, I apologize in advance because this is probably the textbook definition of flaming or trolling or something, but it makes me really mad. I really like your line about "It seems to me that those taht can't see where we are coming from just haven't read the forums like we have or been around as long as we have..." According to your 10-8-2003 forum registration date and my 8-20-2003 forum registration date, I've been around longer than you. I was a master creature handler before you even registered on the forums. And your 4XX postcount is less than my 5XX postcount. So I'm a more active participant. I've been here longer than you, and I don't see where you're coming from. Sorry to respond to that, but for whatever reason that statement struck me as just ludicrous.
End Juvenile Section
Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about. We have difference of opinions. I respect your opinion that Vertexon is somehow not doing his job, but I respectfully disagree and am trying to understand what in the world you expect that he isn't delivering that somehow anyone else WOULD be able to deliver? All you seem to want him to do is post his opinion more, and as I've repeated numerous times, that's not necessary since his job is to convey OUR opinions as a whole and report back information, which he does a fine job of.
Do you really want to understand or blindly defend? Because if you want to understand then heres some help:
1) the Mount not following bug was a topic in 3-4 threads.
2) I made a Bug: Mounts do not follow now thread.
3) Vert said he would forward it.
4) Bug has not been fixed.
5) New thread asking if the bug fix was on TC now.
6) Vert replies it was there this morning or some garbage and says he bugged it or whatever.
7) That is not enough.
8) Vert needs to tell us that he personally told TH, Rune or what ever other airhead he checks in with.
9) I see that he told someone else.
10) I ride their case.
11) You said he had twenty posts here since 3/8.
12) that is likely more than he had 3 months prior.
13) If that isn't enough I will do some facts gathering tomorrow and tell you how long each correspondent has been in and how many mosts they have made per day on average.
14) Many of us feel that Vert would roll over in a second rather than say he objects due to the fact he dislikes anything controversial.
15) for goodness sakes he cannot even defend himself let alone a community.
The charges stand. He will not do us justice. He will remain hidden and do only what he wants, when he wants and only if it does not sully his hands.
Message Edited by Pluto9Moon on 03-11-2004 06:21 PM
Pluto9Moon wrote:
Ko,
Do you really want to understand or blindly defend? Because if you want to understand then heres some help:
1) the Mount not following bug was a topic in 3-4 threads.
2) I made a Bug: Mounts do not follow now thread.
3) Vert said he would forward it.
4) Bug has not been fixed.
5) New thread asking if the bug fix was on TC now.
6) Vert replies it was there this morning or some garbage and says he bugged it or whatever.
7) That is not enough.
8) Vert needs to tell us that he personally told TH, Rune or what ever other airhead he checks in with.
9) I see that he told someone else.
10) I ride their case.
11) You said he had twenty posts here since 3/8.
12) that is likely more than he had 3 months prior.
13) If that isn't enough I will do some facts gathering tomorrow and tell you how long each correspondent has been in and how many mosts they have made per day on average.
14) Many of us feel that Vert would roll over in a second rather than say he objects due to the fact he dislikes anything controversial.
15) for goodness sakes he cannot even defend himself let alone a community.
The charges stand. He will not do us justice. He will remain hidden and do only what he wants, when he wants and only if it does not sully his hands.Message Edited by Pluto9Moon on 03-11-2004 06:21 PM
Ah, now I perfectly understand. You think you are entitled to personal attention.
Well guess what, this game is about thousands of other players. Just because you didn't get an immediate fix to what you personally desire doesn't mean someone isn't doing thier job. Get over yourself, please.
"We got our turn first and hardest, lots of changes and lots of fixes."
Exactly what did they fix with CH so far? I don't think they ever did yet, and there's also new bugs on top of the old ones.
From the track records at SOE, it's VERY BAD. The way they're fixing broken professions is WAY too slow. It should NEVER take this long period. In EQ (and yes I'm using that as an example since it's from SOE) they fix multitude of bugs and broken things in a matter of few months (and even in days if it hinders gameplay), now take a look at the fixes on the broken professions in SWG, there's 100's of things that can effect one's gameplay... and very vital to fix. How long did it take them to fix some of the duping problems?
Like I said there needs to be better management and priorities and right now it's not looking good. So far in Publish 7, only 2 professions are being focused on, Droid Engineer and Carbineers.
That's not good...
Ko,
I am sorry you feel that way. I fight for all CH. I feel Vert cannot and will not. If he wants to be just another player then he needs to step down. Every excuse has been made for his lack of focus to this threed except the right one. Indifference. And if I have to be the bad guy for pointing that out, /shrug. My agenda is the betterment of CH's everywhere. I even started a seperate thread to ask all CH's. You call it a vandetta. I call it making sure we have the right representation. If it spurs SOE to take a look at him and prod him in the right direction then that works too. He needs to do better or get off the pot. More and more there are less and less Veterans here. Ko you may be the last one here that even has me beat.
Any job whether paid or unpaid must be done. He owes it to himself and to us to do that job. If nothing more comes of this than he makes more posts that would please me to no end. Ko in the other post I get one starred for asking yet Dan gets five starred for saying I should be banned. Childish and immature needs not further looking than in your own camp.
There are three parts to this original post. This seems to be the part some have differences of opinion with. Yet the entire thing is still 4 stars after multiple 1 stars. It shows thata lotthink that the original post was mostly relavent. And might even suggest that even more feel thatVert endangers this profession the longer he holds the office.
Love me or hate meI am speaking my opinion. I could care less. There are no suprises. Can he control the Devs? I know without a doubt they will act as moronic as we allow them. The fact TH does not come here pleases me to no end. If he fell of the face of the earth tomorrow only his fanbois would cry. Vert has so much potential to help this community. Just as you criticize me for not being constructive, I question that Vert does anything different than I except keep his mouth shut.
Maybe it is better to be thought of as stupid than open your mouth and prove it. I am not afraid of adversity, it builds character. Doing the right thing is important. Doing the right thing when you know you can get away with it is more important. Vert, IMO, is not doing the right thing. He knows he cannot be as active in this forum as he ought to be. Ought implies can. If he cannot be more active then he is doing the wrong thing.
Hell, Ko I would be happy if you were the Correspondent. At least you are active. I do not know you from Adam. The only person I do know from in game is talon. Freth is one of the best writers in this forum it is why I mentioned him. Tivo. I have had little contact with other than his passion and imaginative ability to roleplay. I think this dialogue has shown there are more than just me who believe it is time for a change. I will stand the martyr if i must. But I wish the torch would just be passed without this much bloodshed. Vert knows what he must do.
The agenda I am pushing is one of an active Correspondent. This should not be a post lightly given someone who believes he can attend to it with the dedication of a casual gamer.
Ko-aIri wrote:
Warning: Juvenile Section Alert:
Look, I apologize in advance because this is probably the textbook definition of flaming or trolling or something, but it makes me really mad. I really like your line about "It seems to me that those taht can't see where we are coming from just haven't read the forums like we have or been around as long as we have..." According to your 10-8-2003 forum registration date and my 8-20-2003 forum registration date, I've been around longer than you. I was a master creature handler before you even registered on the forums. And your 4XX postcount is less than my 5XX postcount. So I'm a more active participant. I've been here longer than you, and I don't see where you're coming from. Sorry to respond to that, but for whatever reason that statement struck me as just ludicrous.
End Juvenile Section
Yes, I didn't actually start posting until after I had been in the game for quite some time because I was having problems with my firewall and the forums. Also, for some reason my user name wouldn't register with the forums and wouldn't verify... so I may have come to the forums later than you in actuality, but I've been in the game since about a week after its release. An MCH shortly after that. So, maybe you're right... maybe you were here before me (on the forums). I digress. It still escapes me how someone that's been here as long as you (and I) aren't as frustrated as the rest of us have been. I pay a monthly fee for this game. What I've seen coming from the devs and Vert has been sub-par in my opinion. And that's what it is, my opinion. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Either way, I'm leaving the profession in a week to squeeze what little enjoyment I can get out of other professions I've not tried. I doubt I'll run into the same death-throws this profession has had, so maybe I'll be around a few more months. *shrug* I'm tired of being frustrated and tired of bleeding my heart out on this forum.