Creature Handler Archive

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eleghost wrote:
I see what you're saying nell, about taking business away from DEs. However, entertainer and combat droids make up a very small percentage of the DE market.

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My additions to your statements are in blue.

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

Thanks, I've no beef with you either

Nobody "needs" BE pets in the fact that they aren't required. Tho they are better than most anything we can tame on our own, so there is an advantage to buying BE pets. And Bio-Engineers are a profession that is in the market of supplying goods to other players. I think it's cool that CH's can train mounts for players, but we aren't a merchant profession, our purpose is not to be a supplyer of goods to other players. So we got one thing we can do, that's not really stepping on anyone else's toes. But supplying "entertainer" pets is stepping on the toes of DE's. As a DE, I'm not asking to make pistols, or buff foods, or clothes.

I don't see this the same as you. Once you reduce things to this does that or what is for whom. Then I can point out combat droids do combat. So I can easily infer with your reductionist policy that BE and WS both provide things that do damage. So DE should not. Ever. It is the same logic you are using.

Now I think I understand what you're getting at with the whole BE's vs. DE's for combat pets for non-CH's arguement. Since that's the BE's department, then us as DE's shouldn't be stepping on their toes.

Exactly. But that is your argument not mine.

Well to be honest, I was never happy with non-CH pets to begin with. Especially now that BE's could make such crazy creatures that are considered CL10. But to be perfectly honest, the non-CH combat pet market was ours first, as well. The whole "CL10 usable by non CH's" didn't come in at launch, it was awhile before that was implemented. I didn't like it from a CH perspective. After all, we can't use a pistol without marksman or pistoleer skills. Why should just anyone be able to use a CL10 pet, when their skills consist of entertainer and artisan? I guess to make the comparison of pistols vs. creatures even more accurate, I could somewhat understand a novice scout being able to get a level 10 or below creature. But just anybody? No, I wasn't happy about that.

Okay, it did not come at launch. You know how many things CH had at launch thats not there now? If there were no city and vehicle publish, then mounts would still sell for 50-200k and there would be no need for a niche market. The game evolves and we want it to evolve for us without it just being "gotta catch me all" pokemon collecting or fighting for the sake of fighting with no content or real reward.

And to be honest, I'm gonna go ahead and say that DE's do have a small role in the combat market. You can call that hypocritical that I think DE's should get a piece of a market already taken, where CH's shouldn't. And I'll go ahead and say it probably it. But there are a couple reasons for this. Main one being, DE's area supplyer of goods to other players, being an artisan / merchant class. CH isn't. CH is a combat class. No other combat class gets to merchant off their goods. Why should CH? And as far as the DE combat market goes, I don't think it should be much (if any) bigger than it is. I don't agree there should be a separate class for high level combat droids. I like being able to craft droids that add support in combat, but I dunno that I much want full scale combat capabilities from our droids. 1. All the top notch combat droids we'd get aren't in this timeline, and 2. There is already a profession for top notch combat companions.

Wait you cannot have it both ways. CH does supply mounts. We supply trained pets as well. AndI do think you overlook the smugglers who do market their goods. Maybe not as much since food became uber, but they can. So you're against non-CH pets but all for non-Droid Commander pets? You are confusing me.

But the biggest point is that Creature Handlers -aren't- a supplier of goods. It's one thing to have1 thing we can do in mounts. But we simply don't spend enough skill points to be able to do combat, and merchant business in one profession. It's one thing to trade our pets around with other people, just like a pistoleer could trade his gun to someone else, but a pistoleer can't make his gun give special benefits to different types of players. Why should our pets be able to give entertainer bonuses, especially when there is already a profession built around being a supplier of goods, and already has an item that does the exact same thing?

Please first and foremost. You are not a merchant until you take up merchant. Otherwise you have a few artisan points that are required. All the business stuff just makes it a little easier. The type of bonus is debatable. I have expressed over and over they cannot do the exact same thing. It defeats the purpose to do the exact same thing. But let's play this out. Smugglers did give bonuses to weapons, chefs to stats, smugglers to stats. So since they gave stat bonuses before you, DE should not have it at all.

CH has it's problems, no doubt, but I truly feel like sometimes you guys want too much, when you're asking to become a merchant class on top of a combat class.

See, now you have said you, instead of we. The real difference here is that you are not looking out for CH at all. Play CH 24/7 tame all the tames. Shoot and kill everything. Then think how CH migt be a little more fun. You are not looking out for CH at all, it is we who play it often that is trying to make it better who look out for CH.

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DE's should, because they are a supplier of goods profession, and they supply utility droids to assist with everyday tasks.

And DE's don't do anything with stats or buffs, like you mention with smugglers and chefs. And we don't ask for those roles either. If you check the DE forums, you will see that no DE wants to take a market away from someone else. The only thing we want to do is to be able to make a product that assists others. I.E., we assist chefs by making portable crafting stations in our droids that all Chefs to make their foods anywhere (same goes for any other crafting profession), but we aren't the ones who make the foods, nor do we make droids that give the stat buffs that Chef foods give. We assist entertainers with our entertainer droids that allow entertainers to give higher wound healing, and get better experience. But we don't make droids that do the mind healing for them. It's just as a Weaponsmith makes the pistols that allows a Pistoleer to fight in combat, but Weaponsmiths don't do the combat for them.

What you are asking, by this entertainer pet request specifically, is that you turn CH into not only a combat profession, but also a mercantile profession, a supplier of goods, and you want to supply a product that already exists from another profession. Droid Engineers don't make pistols. Droid Engineers don't make armor. Droid Engineers don't make food. Those aren't our markets.

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

no DE wants to take a market away from someone else. The only thing we want to do is to be able to make a product that assists others.

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You are a DE.

Selling profession specific pets would make a market for CH.

You say we should not have that market.

The premisses have to agree with the conclusion.

Message Edited by P9M on 03-23-2005 12:15 AM

"Creature Handlers can train mounts and sell those. That is one cool, unique feature that we have. But we are still not a mercantile profession. We supply CL10 pets to people, so they can do what? Combat! I'm sorry, but collecting a datapad full of creatures has only 1 real purpose: Combat. Creature pets aren't meant to help in everyday tasks. And Creature Handlers aren't meant to be a mercantile profession."

Pets can be used for combat, but thats irrelevant. Using strong pets in combat is not something unique to CH, its something anyone can do.

But even if I humor you and pretend that there is a significant difference between the strength of CH pets and the strength of CL10 BE pets, there is still a problem with your assertion: you cannot win at combat with just pets. Every typical combat profession can do pretty well on its own, without needing any companion profession. However, a creature handler without a mainstream combat profession like rifleman or TKA is worthless in combat.

Its worthless in combat and its worthless as a money-maker. My point has been from the beginning that CH has no significant role in the community, and that really should change. I dont think its worth leaving CH castrated just to save DE from having its toes stepped on. After all, who was here first? The domesticated animal or the hover-tractor?

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eleghost wrote:

1. Performing Pets

Create a new creature command called "train as performer" that would be an ongoing action like an entertainers dance. Entertainers grouped with such a pet would receive a boost to mind/bf-healing and buffing. This command would only be applicable to certain creatures, similar to the "train as mount" command. Pets trained with this command would change visually, to be wearing fancy collars and jewelry (a la sigfreid and roy), just as mounted pets change visually.

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eleghost wrote:
>snippy<
1. Performing Pets

Love this idea, seeing as I am a master dancer & a master CH.

2. Tracker Pets

/nod I agree with rangers needing all the help they can get. However I believe this might be better suited to a droid, because you would be adding an element of intelligence to a creature I don't think was intended.

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My two biggest 'Santa Claus Wishes' for CH are...

The ability to call a pet in combat... as um... thats our weapon.

Pet armor/adornments.

Oh & of course a tameable pharple...

Message Edited by velm on 03-23-2005 10:16 PM

I'm the stereotypical vagabond poor CH...If I wanted I suppose, I could grind near 30k missions with my pets alone...but this is the style of game play I choose to play. Something about hunting down and taming pets seems much more enjoyable to me, and I find it a bit odd that a CHs chief source of revenue is the death of hordes of innocent creatures on missions commissioned to "Make a little girl happy"

The trade of creatures is one of the few non combat related revenue sources a CH can get. Its an iffy job, as demand often waxes and wanes at unpredictable intervals. Yet, I've managed to bring in some nice sums for commissions I've done. Usually that cash is spent on brandy and stims to last until my next spurt of cash.

Almost all of my pets are natural creatures that I tamed myself. For this reason if you take another CH who sinks creds into BE pets and stack my results against his or hers, and I will certainly lose miserably.

Yes BEs have their place, but CHs need to get some novelty that makes taming a viable option for acquiring pets that have some use. Apart from super rares; which are mostly for show; GSPs, Grand Wrixes, and the occasional odd pet, I find people care little for natural pets.

I am by no means crying *DEATH TO THE BEs AND DEs* to the contrary, I have good friends in both professions, and want to see them flourish. A niche needs to be created for CHs to make the skill point investment more worthwhile as a services profession. When I see a level 10 gurrek a non-ch has tearing things up that my twin GSPs would have problems with, I worry

I think the identity crisis CH has is somewhat of a problem. We are not just a combat class, not just a services class, but we are sitting in limbo like a deer in the headlights.

We have to acknowledge that both sides of the profession can be nurtured without causing massive damage to other members of the community, and before any changes are made BEs and DEs should have to submit.

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P9M wrote:

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

no DE wants to take a market away from someone else. The only thing we want to do is to be able to make a product that assists others.

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You are a DE.

Selling profession specific pets would make a market for CH.

You say we should not have that market.

The premisses have to agree with the conclusion.

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

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P9M wrote:

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Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:

no DE wants to take a market away from someone else. The only thing we want to do is to be able to make a product that assists others.

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You are a DE.

Selling profession specific pets would make a market for CH.

You say we should not have that market.

The premisses have to agree with the conclusion.

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No, us CH's should not have that market, because we are not a mercantile class. We are a combat class.

Maybe you missed the point. You are a DE saying we should not have a market. Thus what you said above is a fallacy.

Are we gimped? Yes. But we should fight to get our combat effectiveness reinstated, instead of asking to turn ourselves into a combat / merchant profession.

CURB will take care of that (hopefully).

There is a reason why DE's don't want combat droid certs. Because DE's are a crafting profession. If we want to use weapons, we take up a combat profession. By being able to craft, sell, and fight all in one profession, that severely overpowers the professions.

Again,I have seen the debates in the DE forums. There are significant amounts on both sides. The history is that DE did not want a Droid Commander profession because they wanted it for themselves. When they found out that they could not have the Certs themselves they were livid and sorry they cancelled the DC profession. I was there and saw it. The current preference may be no Certs for DE or no DC, but that is the DE making a choice for themselves. There are marginally few CH who want no commerce at all.

And by asking for "utility" pets for CH, you are essentially doing the same thing, allowing the profession to be completely self sufficient by "crafting" (I put that in quotations, because taming isn't the same as crafting, but through taming we produce our own weapons), fighting, and selling.

I would like to see you expound on this further. Crafting is not the same as taming how? There are costs associated with taming. It is not free. Go tame a bull rancor unarmored and unbuffed. How will you get there? Oh yeah DE can magically teleport right?

There is a reason why DE's have a market in the combat profession: They are a crafting / selling profession, and they provide a product to the community. That is what the skill points in Droid Engineering are spent on. Sure, we make combat droids that anyone can use. But if you've ever used one, you would know that a combat droid alone is -NOT- going to replace a weapon. Therefore, Weaponsmiths -still- have their role, despite the fact you need certs to use WS products, and none to use DE products.

DE have a /transfer command? I am not sure why you think by default CH are not supposed to trade pets to people. Seems to me DE are not meant to because they have no commands. I can be equally as reductionist as you are being. The fact is that CH spends skill points in taming and training. These skill are meant to provide a service to others. Two whole skill trees just to provide a service for others. See that makes us the 50/50 style profession you seem to be arguing should not exist. But we do.

People spend skill points in Creature Handler to -use- a wide assortment of different pets. Creature Handler is a -user- profession. It is the fault of the people who run this game that on our own, Creature Handling isn't truly a viable combat option. It is not the fault of the crafting professions who spend skill points to create a product to market to the community.

OK. DE spend skill points to make droids. No mention of sales there anywhere. Because you build them doesn't mean you should sale them. We at least have a /transfer command that is specifically there for us to give pets to others. You do not.

Again: Weaponsmiths spend skill points to create and sell a product; weapons. Combat professions spend skill points to use those products. A Droid Engineer spends points to create and supply a product. Creature Handlers spend skill points to use a wide assortment of creatures. You cannot all of a sudden turn Creature Handler into a profession that -uses- product, and also supplies them. That gives too many benefits to Creature Handler for the skill point investment. Essentially, that turns Creature Handler into an "all for one" class... it makes that profession completely self sufficient. The only justification to be able to allow Creature Handlers to be a user and a provider would be to increase DRASTICALLY the skill point requirements for Creature Handler. And I for one do -not- want to see that.

Nope. You do not spend skill point to sale. That is an inference. It is not implied. CH is implied with the default transfer command. DE can use their product right? You should not be able to sell if you can use it. Seems rather hypocritical again for you to keep expressing a one sided argument that only hems in CH but not yourself. CH is by default the all in one class. Look at any talk about CH in the CURB. You will see it is not there because we are already revamped and they have no idea to do with a well rounded class. We already spend skill points in taming and training.

This, again, is where the "we" vs. "you" comes into play. I don't identify as the Creature Handler who wants to be able to do it all, and be completely self sufficient. I am the Creature Handler that wants to go out to remote planets, and find new and exciting creatures to tame to call my own. And yes, I want to use them in combat. But there are -many- Creature handlers out there (or at least so it seems) that have the "We should be able to do it all" mentality, and not only want to be able to tame their pets, and use them in combat, but also want to sell their pets for services to other players. You cannot just have 1 profession that is so much more self sufficient. This game was designed so that everybody depends on each other. I'm sorry, as much as you don't want to accept it, but Creature Handlers do -not- have a place in the mercantile community of this game.

Okay. Let's try this. Supplies for droids are free if you hand sample. So DE should not be able to sale? Because DE can use the product themselves they should not sale it to other? See how silly these arguments appear when applied to DE?

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Message Edited by Nell2ThaIzzay on 03-23-2005 04:30 PM