Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Discussion Topic: Embolden and Enrage
Page 2 of 2
Jediblues
Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:10 am
#14
As they are now, they are not really much good. I like your idea Vert.
BlindTyldak
Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:55 am
#15
TsiyaAma wrote:
BlindTyldak wrote:
I'd much rather see them FIX overpowered non-CH pets than worry about whether or not any changes will affect them. Discussing skill changesso that they don't affect something that is broken and is supposed to be repaired is pretty backwards. They should fix it, and then we can discuss changes needed to systems that are then working as intended.
Message Edited by BlindTyldak on 07-13-2004 10:08 PM
ok, I'm confuzzled...did I miss something here?
Vert was working on ideas for embolden and enrage, but needed a way to affect a change to the current system that would not bring bugged non-CH animals into play. Of course, this also affects bugged CH animals as well. I was just saying I think its going about it the wrong way to try to get a change in and work around the bugs, possibly then having to rework it a second time when the bugs are fixed, than to fix the bugs and then change the system.
Galacium
Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:41 am
#16
Great discussion topic!
I think these commands may be the key to our future improvement as a class.
Consider this: One of the balance problems with our class is that we can use pets and a weapon (with another combat class) silmutaniously. Some have suggested that weapons should be disabled while pets fight etc... Here is a proposal to balance all that out, give stand alone CH good combat abbility without unbalancing those that have a combat profession to compliment CH....
A new set of special abbilities along the lines of Enrage and Enbolden but with some differences....
#1. Using these abbilites goes into the combat que just like any other attack, and better ones have longer delays etc.
#2. Each has some kind of ham cost just like special attacks do.
Effects that such special abbilities could generate....
Adding Armor Penetration to pets attacks for a short time
Changing pet damage type for a short time
Increasing pet damage for a short time
Increasing pet armor for a short time
Increasing pet resistances (with a cap)for a short time
Increasing pet special attack resistances for a short time
Granting a pet special defenses like block etc for a short time
Giving a pet an area attack for a short time. (might be very hard to code)
On the original abbilities: Embolden is fairly useless, short duration buffing is realy worse than healing is, so why not just heal them. If secondaries buffed such that pets got extra regeneration it might be ok, or if it lasted for the whole fight it would be fine. Basicaly this one dosn't fit well into my new system, but a long duration pet buff abbility would be great. Enrage simply dosn't seem to result in much extra damage but I do notice the drop in defenses. Still it proves that such effects can be applied, it just needs a better system.
Final statement: So I think this system could not only give stand alone CH players much needed offensive boosts, but would do so without letting a multi combat class CH abuse them while silmutainously taking advantage of their own classes abbilities. You could shoot and do these specials but you would have to alternate such attacks.
theGauch0
Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:14 am
#17
Awesome idea that these be changed, although I'm not sold on the specifics. I am a PvP-oriented MCH, so here are my suggestions:
Embolden: Make this a combination of warcry and secondary HAM boost. Freeze the pet's target in fear for a brief couple of combat rounds, and also boost the pet's secondaries so it regenerates faster. Give this a long duration (like a minute or two).
Enrage: Keep the berserk effect, but also add an area intimidate that would work like wookie roar. The targets around the pet should all be intimidate when the fearsome beast flies into a rage. And make the berserk effect last longer.
Another cool addition to the enrage command might be to make the pet use its specials instead of default attacks while the berserk state lasts.
BOTH OF THESE COMMANDS should have very low HAM costs to the CH, and they should have a reasonably long duration. The tradeoff should be that these are on a timer so that they can only be used once every 8 or 10 minutes. I think that this would be a great step toward making CHs more effective in PvP. One of the problems with the commands now, aside from them not being very useful for anything, is that they have such high HAM costs that you are often unable to use them when they are most needed, i.e. when the battle is going badly. Putting them on a timer but slashing or eliminating the HAM costs would ensure that they are not exploited, but it would give an MCH a nice edge at the beginning of a fight.
Embolden: Make this a combination of warcry and secondary HAM boost. Freeze the pet's target in fear for a brief couple of combat rounds, and also boost the pet's secondaries so it regenerates faster. Give this a long duration (like a minute or two).
Enrage: Keep the berserk effect, but also add an area intimidate that would work like wookie roar. The targets around the pet should all be intimidate when the fearsome beast flies into a rage. And make the berserk effect last longer.
Another cool addition to the enrage command might be to make the pet use its specials instead of default attacks while the berserk state lasts.
BOTH OF THESE COMMANDS should have very low HAM costs to the CH, and they should have a reasonably long duration. The tradeoff should be that these are on a timer so that they can only be used once every 8 or 10 minutes. I think that this would be a great step toward making CHs more effective in PvP. One of the problems with the commands now, aside from them not being very useful for anything, is that they have such high HAM costs that you are often unable to use them when they are most needed, i.e. when the battle is going badly. Putting them on a timer but slashing or eliminating the HAM costs would ensure that they are not exploited, but it would give an MCH a nice edge at the beginning of a fight.
Seiryuu
Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:48 am
#18
Keep in mind the HAM-special concept is going to change soon. With those changes this could instead hit the Special Bar quite heavily while not putting the player in mortal danger.
Another issue is does Enrage work for anyone else currently? I recently tried using it (as CH is my only combat skill I figured it might help) and my pets gained no damage bonus. They went berserk, I lost most of my HAM, but they did the same damage with or without Enrage.
Another issue is does Enrage work for anyone else currently? I recently tried using it (as CH is my only combat skill I figured it might help) and my pets gained no damage bonus. They went berserk, I lost most of my HAM, but they did the same damage with or without Enrage.
DrexDrakon
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:22 pm
#19
When I first made MCH, I thought that those would be cool skills for my pets. They're basically worthless and even w/the mods you're talking, I probably STILL wouldn't use them.
How about taking them away and adding Trick3 which would FULLY heal the pet but at a steep HAM cost to the owner? I'd use that since Trick2 only seems to heal a lot of, but not all of the damage....most annoying when you get out of a fight and before you can do anything, another mob spawns (not necessarily same type).
ScoutMastr
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 pm
#20
Dodece wrote:
Those super powered non ch pets are an exploit. They are not supposed to exist. Some BEs are useing an exploit to cook up stuff that they should not be. Right now though the exploit has not reached a specific level of abuse for the devs to focus on it. I personally cannot get overly mad about it. Atleast on my server you see one on friday, and see another on wednesday, and they are just not getting used in pvp.
By the way there is a macro a person can do now to get around the five second weapon switch delay. There is also the exploit t21 for the devs to fix, and the unserialized components bug that people are exploiting the hell out of. Add on transperancy issues in some dungeons. Allowing the enemy to get worked into walls but still be able to attack you. Skilltapes still do not stack. Not to mention the devs did something and now ghost rideing is back to.
Anyway those super non ch pets are exploits. Maybe good or bad, but the abuse of them is just not rampant enough for the devs to put time or effort into fixing it. We might have to wait awhile on that.
OMG!!! no wonder so many CH's hate the BE community, please be careful when you post accusations like this. The truth is, these pets are the result of a bug in the CL calculation process--not an EXPLOIT the BE's are using. Many recipes that are known to produce these monsters are being avoided by BE's. Some BE's feel its ok to make and sell these, Many of us feel they're too overpowered for non-CH's...so far, the devs agree with the latter. The problem is, the devs don't know why the system isn't working the way they thought it would--some pets with extremely low, or below wild CL10 stats are still having to be adjusted--or called "invalid", while those that could be considered CL20+ in the wild, still hold their CL10 rating when tamed--it's a mess--and it's VERY RAMPANT--it's all over our board. WE have been begging the devs to do something about it, but they are focussing on other projects. This is game breaking to us, because we can't tell if a pet is valid or not until it's sold and tamed by the owner...that makes buying or sellingnonCH pets problematic.
Again, let me reiterate, we are not "useing an exploit to cook up stuff thatwe should not be". We are using the system as designed and finding flaws in the CL calculating process with some recipes. It would be like you commanding your pet to attack a mob, and the mob dies before your pet ever touches it...why is it doing that?--did you use an exploit, or did something in the system not happen the way it should? What if it happened every time you commanded your pet to attack a mob of that type?..you have a choice, you can recognize that this is not what's supposed to happen, and therefore not attack those type of mobs, or you can continue using the system as it works until it's fixed. Now if it's a CL70 pet attacking a CL2 creature, then the devs may stall on the fix for a little while, but if the mob is CL70 and your pet is only CL2, then the fix would be a priority...that's pretty much where we are, it's just not a priority.
DrexDrakon
Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:37 am
#21
Good reply from the BE side. I've pointed it out to my RL BE friend. He's made me (MCH) some awesome pets including one that's on display in his store (Serenity city/Naboo/Lowca) that I can't use....it's CL72. 
Thanks for posting that bit about BE's being aware of it and notifying the Devs...I like BE's again. 
theGauch0
Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:55 pm
#22
Has this discussion died already? Let's keep it going, because if we can't figure out how to make these commands more useful, they probably will never get more useful.
AmonTdow
Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:01 am
#23
raynedog wrote:Embolden Pets - Keep the percentage stat buff. Add a percentage resist buff (with an upper cap) for the duration of the Embolden. Increase defense against state attacks (DOT, Intimidate, Warcry, etc) for the duration. Remove the cooldown timer so this can be recast after it fades in battle (at a steep HAM cost to the CH).
I like this idea because the command is fairly useless as it stands currently. Possibly this command could be tied to a pet special attack modefier as well? Up the chance of landing one or doing one? It seems currently that pet specials are very hit and miss so something to help that would be cool.Enrage Pets - Keep the Berserk effect. Add a percentage damage increase (with an upper cap) for the duration of the Enrage. Increase pet attacks' Armor Piercing value from "None" to "Light" for the duration of the Enrage. Remove the cooldown timer so this can be recast after it fades in battle (at a steep HAM cost to the CH).
Yes again the command is currently fairly useless. Possibly to add to this pet specials do more dmg. So you can see my idea to add to your current idea is that one command incresses the chance for a special, the other incress the specials dmg if it hits. Goes with out saying you souldn't be able to both at the same time( currently I don't think you can but I never tried)So all in all I like you idea very much, just would like to see a pet DOT or special attack modifer thrown in as well.
Maybe add a bleed, you engrage it goes ape **edit** insane, bites/scratch the crap out of you, making you bleed.
madhot328
Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:23 pm
#24
i have been a master creature handler for a very long time. these two specials in their current form arent of much use to me.
embolden: to instill with boldness or courage
shouldnt the special in someway have an effect that equals the definition. an increased aggression on the part of the pet giving it a faster attack rate and a small warcry affect. the ham usage should be on the pet should be small. short timer for recharge.
enrage: to fill with rage
to me this would equal my pet going into a blood rage giving it a huge increase in all attack stats. a stronger warcry affect would also fit well into this idea. the ham usage on the part of the pet would be high. long timer for recharge.
Page 2 of 2