Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Creature Handler State of the Profession (January 2004)
"With the superiority of vehicles over mounts in most situations, demand for mount training has predictably lessened. "
Maybe understating it a tad.
What say the pack animals can't store things while in the datapad? They're not extra inventory they're just a "I don't have room to carry this around right now", useful for when you're out buying up resources and carting them home or somehow pick up more loot than you can carry, or maybe when you have to empty your house to re-deed it.
This assumes a fix to the auto-storing I guess... if it popped back to the datapad and poofed everything you own that'd be a pisser.
I'd like to second the notion that we're not going to get anything fixed for awhile, maybe a long while.
Other professions are complaining about the attention that CH is getting almost as much as we're complaining about the attention we're getting. Everytime we get "rebalanced" or more bluntly, nerfed, the DEs and others go "Wow, breaking CH is more important than fixing us? That's not right."
At this point I'm seriously fearful of seeing CH removed altogether because the Devs are tired of hearing about us.
Well, everything was touched on, and for that i am grateful. But i would, perhaps, appreciate a little more depth when speaking of our Economic Plight. Its been argued, and rightfully so, that CH is now the most costly supposed "combat profession" in game. We now must buy viable pets from BE's, there is NO equal to BE pets, unless you want to throw in the extremley rare pets (which are at this point so rare that many of us consider them extinct). As you stated, there is no pet we can tame that will sell. Our need for pet stimshas signficantly increased since many pets are no longer able to withstand damage. Our ability to do destroy mission has been demenished by the pet "rebalance." Also, since pets do not deal comparable amounts of damage when put agianst other combat professions, the CH is forced to use a weapon themselves, increasing the cost of maintaining our viability in combat. You can throw in armor if you choose.
The devs need to make up their minds. Are we a combat profession? Or are we a combat support profession? Or are we something completley different? Looking at past, and recent changes, it seems the devs are torn over what we should be doing. I would like a little consistancy about what our role is in this game. If we are a combat profession, then our damage output from CH is pathetically low. If we are a combat support profession, then why make creatures aggro on us rather than our pets? If we are something other than a combat profession, why make us solely dependant upon BE's for pets or "weapons" as so many of our neanderthal BE friends put it?
Note: Reference to BEs as Neanderthals is not meant to encompass every player who is a BE, rather those who refer to our "pet" as weapns, and thus refer to themselves as "weaponsmiths for CHs."
And ignoring us for a few years.
good job vertexon, you know my main arguement is still the fact that some creatures are not spawning STILL (bark mite burrower, bark mite burrower queen, kliknik queen - needs armor, seething bol crusher, frenzied graul, ancient graul, merek harevster, king/queen merek harvester, blood-drenched merek king, mantigrue reaper, arachne queen, thune herd leader, shear mite queen - should have better stats, etc...etc....etc.
Tivo
Thanks for all the hard work. Its mosly great but here are my concerns...
I think a few of the major issues that need to be addressed ASAP should be highlighted early and often,perhaps in bold or something to make sure that if nothing else they are addressed very soon. All the problems are kind of lumped together and there is an overall air of complacency. The major issues should be brought to the readers attention before anything imho... even the introduction. This includes...
- BEed CL10 and under pets, usuable by anyone, with stats similar to CL30+ pets in the wild. Not just those made with bugged DNA! I saw one small mention of this late in the report. It should be the first line! This is a huge issue, perhaps the most unbalanced issue SWG has, as a whole, right now and it needs to be fixed. This issue extends to pets over CL10 that dabblers can use but that are still relatively too powerful. BE CLs need balancing in addition to removing the bugged DNA that makes even more ridiculous pets. So there are multiple issues here: 1) bugged DNA making CL6 pets with 10k HAM etc. or CL30 pets hitting for 1000+ 2) Legitimate BEed pets that are still too good for their level. They should be comparable to wild rare pets but different so both are demanded. 3) Keeping non-CH and dabblers from being anything close to as effective as Master CH... only BE pets cause issues here. Wild pets usuable by non CHs are balanced.
- Baby rarity. The better wild pets are too rare. Combined with the utility of BEed pets they are basically non-existant to much of the CH community. No one should have to kill 100+ lairs to get a baby. Some of these animals are pretty tough. If I attack an Arachne Queen/Widow lair and kill a dozen of those spiders then a baby should pop out at the end maybe 1/3 of the time. Some system for getting babies should be put into place so the rarity can be more closely monitored and so people know what they have to do to get baby X.
Some of this rarity issue would be mitigated if lairs respawned like they used to by simply running away from them and coming back. So either 1) increase spawn rate of babies, preferrably with a more tangible formula for how to get them to spawn, or 2) make respawning lairs easier.... CH should not have to kill hundreds of an animal to get a pet... We are supposed to like animals aren't we? Maybe just having a skill called baby locate would be better... it could be an option that comes up on the radial dial of the lair. Anyways... I am getting nitpicky... point is we want to get our babies more easily and many will quit if they can't.
- Calling pets should not require a camp. This could be an addedbenefit of using mounts. It seems I am making camps every few minutes currently. I make camp ,call my pet, then leave... very annoying and unfun. Doesn't make much logical sense either. The delay in storing a pet keeps it from being unbalanced and of course one should not be able to call a pet while doing anything like fighting or whatever.
Those are the big issues I have. The technical issues you brought up, I mostly don't experience so while they may seem important I would rather the above points be addressed first. Maybe the special attack commands, but those work for me 100% of the timeif I use a macro. You did mention all 3 of those but I feel they deserve higher billing and need to be seperated from the "wishful thinking" or they will not be addressed.
Some other stuff that I wanted to comment on...
You say that everyone likes DOT specials. This is NOT true. Poison and Disease are widely considered the weakest specials to have on a pet. Blind, Intimidate, Dizzy, Knockdown etc are much more popular and useful. The lone exception is the Mantigrue Screecher with its Plague Strike special(100-600 a tick)which does about 100x the wound damage of strong disease (3-6 a tick)AND is AE. This pet would be pretty nice in PvP, but it aside, we are weak in PvP and DOT specials on pets are not effective... in PvP or PvE. I can DOT with minimal pistol skills for about 10x what strong poison does (110 a tick) in about half the time it takes my pet to land it.
Giving mounts the ability to attack as we ride them will not accomplish much. Realistically, vehicles should be better. The problem is that they are just too easy to get. I don't see us winning any battles with the devs on the mount front. They are a novelty with some uses and I am fine with that.
Thanks for reading this far. All i really want is the first few points addressed. Anything else would be gravy. We need to make sure the devs realize the importance of BE pets being broken and unbalanced more than anything. Honestly this should be the number 1 issue on the devs "to do" listacross all professions and that point should be made before all others.
Good report,I agree with most of the CHproblems you mentioned. The main issue as far as I'm concerned is the BE pets being much better than any wild creatures with babies -- one of the main attractions for a CH is going out and searching for one of the best pets in the game. With even the best wild pets beingconsiderably inferior to BE pets, there's not much allure to going out and searching for pets to tame.
Nicely done, however the situation is worst then Vertexon says. As a MCH handler from the beginning. I think the situation is worst. SOE has killed the profession. I have played to long and do not want to change profession so I see the end near. I thought all the new rare pets would be fun to search for have not found a single one yet. It is a shame. I agreed with the need for CH to be fixex and tweeked but not killed. There is no reason to be a MCH now. There is nothing a MCH can do now that is not better addressed by another profession. Mounts are a great example of that.
SOE has said their priorities are else where now not with CH. So I do not see any improvemants for us anytime soon. I think SOE wanted to kill CH for the most part. What they have really done is make me and many like me start to think for the first time of leaving the game. Not as a protest or a threat it is just not fun to be MCH anymore and that is the profession and only one I liked and I tried many different ones. As a MCH I am totally unneeded in the game.
Ecco Ton
THe need to also spend skill points on another combat class is way up. In PVE combat I find that even if I am 100m away and send in my pets first, the creatures will aggro me. This eliminates the primary benefit of being a CH having a pet to "tank". With my meager pistoleer skills 0f 0/0/3/1 and a full set of buffs and muron gold plus aromor, I am now a better tank than a GM was.
Yes there may have been too many CH's in the game but I believe the balance sung way too far, to the point that as a Master CH I don't use pets when in a group of 4 or more people because buffs work better.
I have seen a TKA in full composit with buffs SOLO my rancor in 30 sec (yes SOLO in PvP combat) bring back some UBER pets make them level 60 or above, but give some benefit to masters other than the transfer command. I am seriously on the boarder of giving up CH, and I have been a master for 3 months
Great post, though I would like to add a few things.
1. My biggest issue is that people have to be a wookie or have BE clothes (which are all but impossible to get) to use level 60+ creatures. This needs to be FIXED NOW. The fact that this issue has lasted as long as it has is unacceptable.
2. Specialsand ranged attacksnot working needs to be addressed soon.
3. Rare babies are too rare and there needs to be viable way for those of us who don't have hours upon hours to play to aquire these creatures. As it is, many of us have taken a wait and see attitude. Basically, I am not looking for any of the non-exsistant, I mean "rare", babies until they have been proven to exist. Even if people get these pets, most will not use them due to fear of them getting damaged beyond repair and then having to waste another week or month to get another one. Not a good decision in my opinion.
4. Due to the above issue, there is no bonus to being a master, as the best, and I use that term loosely, pets that are commonly used/obtained are level 50 or below. Delirous Merek Avenger is only level 40. Pets under level 40 take too much damage to use two at a time, much less 3.
5. General lack of creatures in the wilderness of certian planets. My main gripe is with Dantooine and Lok. These are mid to high level planets that seem to be more of a sub-urban community than harsh planets. The creature spawns need to be increased on both planets. If you don't want to get trapped in your house or ambushed on your way to your house, move to Corellia, Tatooine, Naboo, Rori or Talus. Dantooine and Lok need to be like Dathomir, Yavin and Endor as far as creature spawn rates. I really want a frenzied graul, but how the hell am I going to find one if the only way I can find graul maulers is to get missions. Hardly anyone is on Rori or Talus, make those planets, along with the core planets, the ones that are full of cities, not the upper planets. This is stupid and needs to be addressed.
The Creature Handler (CH) profession can be one of the most exciting and rewarding for many players. There is a great deal of "coolness factor" involved in finding, taming, and having creature companions, and this tends to attract both new players and those who are burned out and looking for a change of profession.
While this is as true today as it was in October, the constant sweeping changes to the profession that seem to accompany every update are beginning to take their toll on general community morale. Just as one is getting used to last month’s sweeping changes, the entire balance of power within the profession is shifted once again. Players find themselves with pets that can no longer be called, and with favorite pets that are no longer on even footing with some of their new tamable cousins. Players don’t know what to expect next, and many express their fervent wish for the major changes to be finished and replaced by a period of relative stability.
This is the main reason I cancelled my account: No stability, no consistancy. Every patch seems to make huge and brash changes instead of small conservative ones. Creature tamming was the only reason I played this game and I so tired of the nerfs thats I havnt played in over 3 weeks...everytime I sign on I am already mentally defeated and have no real sense of joy during gameplay because of how crippled the profession is right now.
The CH system support has been quite strong, and most bugs tend to be annoying rather than game-stopping (though the annoyance factor can become quite strong at times, particularly when auto-storing or AI misbehavior results in one’s character/pet being killed). At the moment the profession is very playable, however, and continues to provide enjoyment for a great many players.
It also provides alot of heart ache and cancelled accounts for many players.
Economic Status: The economics of Creature Handling were seemingly weakened on two fronts by changes in the December patch. With the superiority of vehicles over mounts in most situations, demand for mount training has predictably lessened. The advantages often cited for mounts (ability to use default attacks in combat, the ability to dismount and use the mount as an attack pet) tend not to be very valuable in actual practice. For player character combat, it is advisable to dismount immediately to gain access to one’s special attacks and professional skills. Remaining mounted during battle proves to be more of a hindrance than help, save for roleplay purposes. Perhaps if the pet itself could still attack while being ridden, or if the player had access to special commands, the roleplay value would outweigh the serious disadvantage. This is not currently the case, however.
In the case of dismounting and using the mount as an attack pet, it would be even more tactically sound to have a carefully selected attack pet or three run alongside your vehicle. Indeed, for those Handlers who use Bio-Engineered pets, the gurreck skin (with its fast running speed) is often selected for this very reason.
The second hit to the economics of Creature Handling is a far more entangled subject. Namely, the superiority of Bio-Engineered pets over those found in the wild has all but removed the value of the Handler’s taming skill. As such, he must either do destroy missions as a pure combatant, or rely upon the skills of other professions (i.e. elite combat or crafting professions) to pull in credits. This will be expanded upon in the Profession Interdependencies section.
Nuff said
Profession Interdependencies Status: For Creature Handlers, the most obvious profession of dependence is Bio-Engineer. Bio-Engineers provide pet stimpacks for those without medical skills, pet vitality packs for those who wish to extend the useful lifetimes of their pets, and now pets which are often dramatically better and more customized than their wild equivalents.
This last point in particular has recently strained the relations between Bio-Engineers and Tamers in the CH community. In the eyes of "Tamer" Creature Handlers, the sense of adventure and accomplishment associated with taming one’s own pets in the wild is half the appeal of the profession. In addition, the "Merchant" CHs now find themselves selling a commodity that is no longer in demand. The gulf in power between bio-engineered pets and their wild equivalents has greatly diminished the sense of reward associated with such pursuits, resulting in some feelings of disenfranchisement among the Tamer and Merchant CHs. The mitigating increase in baby variety and the power and availability of rares has not materialized to the extent expected. The Bio-Engineer CHs, on the other hand, wish to ensure that their products are economically viable and desirable. The fact that each profession has a discipline dedicated to "creating" pets has created somewhat of a clash between preferred play styles, now that both professions are in working order.
Other players generally depend on CHs for one of two things. Training pets/mounts with commands, and providing tanks for PvE combat groups. Vehicles and the upcoming combat droids are diminishing the need for Trainers, while the combination of buffs, armor, and greatly enhanced melee professions (including the recent Mitigation bonuses) have in many ways made elite combat professions better tanks than pets. Thus, the Creature Handler now finds himself sort of a jack-of-all-trades in the current scheme of SWG Combat and Economics. He is able to do many things, but tends not to be the most desirable choice for any of them. The non-CH community tends not be as aware of the effects of these changes, however, and one will often find players speaking of the modern CH as though it were the pinnacle PvE profession it has previously been. This gap between perception and reality has created grave concerns in the community about the value and role of Creature Handling in SWG in the future.
I am glad to see BEs in the game again and we should depend on them to an extent. But as it stands right now, going into the wild and looking for hours and hours to no avail is pointless when you have better BE pets....thus the main point of CH in made moot, tamming.
Gameplay Status: The primary role of the Creature Handler is still to provide pet tanks for the purpose of keeping PvE enemies occupied while players administer damage. However, Creature Handlers no longer provide the only viable tanks in SWG. An elite combat professional taking advantage of armor, buffs, and skill bonuses can often be just as effective at tanking as a pet, if not more so. While still wielding significantly more tanking power than an unskilled player, the CH no longer appears to be the zenith of PvE survivability.
The profession as a whole is still functional and fun for the most part, but continues to have a few extremely annoying (and sometimes costly) technical issues to work out. Pets still sometimes stop following their master. Sometimes they still auto-store themselves in the datapad (particularly during combat). Sometimes the /tellpet command will work flawlessly, while at other times (for the same player and pets) only commands delivered in spatial will work. Pets with certain body types (such as the dewback or gronda) still frequently run away when they come under fire in battle. The new Ranged and Special Attack commands do not appear to work at all (or are extremely unreliable at best).
The selection of new tamables and rares seems much lower than advertised, which has led to general feelings of disappointment among the Tamers. It is still far more effective to use a single large pet instead of a pair or trio of lesser ones, except in cases where lower CL Bio-Engineered pets greatly exceed the capability of their wild equivalents. Thunderheart’s previous statement that "animals under CL 50 that are never tamable will be rare" does not appear to be the case. Seemingly only a token number of new tamables are available on the adventure planets, while the starter planets do not appear to have had any changes to their baby spawns whatsoever. Given the BE’s ability to make a "copy" of almost any pet under CL 70, the question has been raised of why there should be any creatures that never spawn babies.
Creature Handling by itself still tends not to be very effective in PvP. With pets weakened and elite combat professions bolstered, Combat-oriented players can cut through the fiercest of pets with ease. The fearsome DOT attacks available on some pets may provide some foothold (though perhaps not to the same degree as an experienced Combat Medic). However, this cannot be fully explored until the ranged/special commands are fixed.
The fact that no pets can deal more damage than its owner should be enough balance to up the resistances in pets. I hate the fact that Medium armor pets were taken away, but i did fair pretty well with my Toxic Mereks and Gapind Spiders before this discrace. I am completely unwilling to involve myself in PvP because of Death and Decay andbecause I cant depend on my pets to help me anymore when facing more than oneopponent.What the devs dont understand is that many of us CHs LOVE our pets and sctually consider them like real pets and dont send them into impossible situations or harms way unless wefeel we can over come the situation. NowI feel so helpless for my animals that I simply use them for show or just to fight weak MOBs. I cant imagine Mokks or any other humanoid killing some of the fiercest and deadly animals with ease, but they do now and it is depressing. The role of CH is now hopeless and it is no longer fun to play.
Issues In Progress
Bugs
- The new Ranged and Special Attack commands do not appear to work (or are so unreliable as to give the impression of not working at all)
- Ongoing pathing problems (pets start moving very slowly or stop following altogether)
- Some pets run away when they come under attack in battle (more common with some body types than others). May be related to creatures having different ‘ideal attack ranges’ that they constant try to move to.
- Pets 'poof' back into datapad occasionally. Seems more common in crowded regions and in battle
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- The last three above problems are the straw that broke the camels back for me. There is no reason that the DEVS couldnt allow at least MAster Level CHs to call pets anywhere without a camp. This would make the game more fun to play and less of a hassel. Right now, playing this profession is WORK and not fun at all because of the camping issue. I work all day long and come home to relax and have fun....so now I play Halo online instead of SWG because of issues like these.
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- The /tellpet commands sometimes will not work for players. This generally happens in isolated episodes for players, both preceeded and followed by tellpet working perfectly with the exact same pets and commands.
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- /tellpet is a great idea that aint working...nuff said.
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- Some pets changed to CL 1 (-1) during the December patching process, and have not grown since. This seems particularly common with motley kaadu. Pets that are bugged in this manner cannot be called out of the Datapad.
- Pets at or just below CL 70 often cannot be called by their owners. This may be due to the "cannot call unless you have a 15% chance of taming" restriction being bypassed in the case of bio-engineered clones
Exploits
- Exploits allowing CH to call many simultaneous pets, exceeding one’s control limit. The fix for this in the previous build does not appear to have prevented all instances of the exploit.
Gameplay
- Pet calling restrictions (outside in city, camp, or declared residence) feel too restrictive, particularly given the ongoing auto-store poofing problems
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- This is the main reason i cancelled my account. This rule is so pointless it hurts. I have come under the impression that the DEVS want to make the game so hard and annoying that it is no fun to play at all. Whether that is true or not I dont know, just my perception. The combat timers installed right now are enough balance for this profession. You cant call or store pets during or after combat and that should be enough. The whole making a camp to call pets is stupid and almost everysingle player agrees. I had a petitiong post to ends this ridiculous rule and had over 9 pages of signatures, but it seems that popular opinion only matters when enough people cancel their accounts.
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Balance
- No perceived advantage to using one’s Taming skills instead of just buying Bio-Engineered pets.
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- AMEN TO THAT!
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Money is easy enough to acquire that "worse but free" does not feel very rewarding to Tamers.
- Creature Handling is not an effective tool at all against a PvP-oriented combat professional. Pets tend to serve more of a psychological role against PvPers who aren’t familiar with the profession’s combat limitations.
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- AMEN TO THAT TOO!
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- Bugged low end BE pets that are extremely powerful for their CL give "dabblers" even more pet power than they had prior to the December patch.
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I was saying this since day one of the patch and got flamed time and time again for it.
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- Not enough tradeoffs between pet species to allow for strategic variety (particularly at the high end). PvE tanking qualities (Light Armor + Kinetic Resists) and Damage Over Time attacks are all that most people care about.
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- We asked for more pet variety and thats what we got, more pets that suck....
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- Rancor does seem as powerful as has been established by Star Wars continuity. Even the weakest rancor should be a high end predator that is feared by players
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- In the EU books, the marriage of Lea and Solo...two rancors made easy work of an AT-ST but in this game they are mutant hamsters with little power at all. SWG did the same thing to the Teras Kasi who in the EU books actually killed Jedi and had some inner force powers of their own, but in SWG they are no more powerful than a sport tournament martial artist.
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Wishlist
- CH-specific missions and content (i.e. 'Taming' missions) available from terminals and/or NPCs
- Creature Handler "Epic Quest" (similar to RIS armor) with a valuable reward (i.e. unique pet, one-time use "tame adult" ability, etc)
- Ability to drop stored pets off either in a regular house or a specialized 'stable' structure
- Ability to train pets through the commandline (i.e. /train followme Follow)
- Ability to sell tame CH pets on vendor/bazaar
- More new creatures/tamables. Both new variants of existing models, and creatures requiring new assets (such as those seen in Episode II)
- More new mounts (flying mounts?)
- Tactically viable mounted combat system (give player use of special attacks and/or allow mount itself to attack while being ridden)
- Mount wearables/armor such as we have seen concept art for in online developer interviews
- More new pet commands/tricks
This was a very good post and I am very impressed with the way Vertexon touched each problem..good work.
In closing I would like to quote Thomas L. McDonald who wrote a quick write up on SWG in what is my favorite gamming magazine: Computer Gamming World.
ALthoug this write up only scratches the surface of the problems with this game it does bring to light the over-all feel and auora of tha game as a whole.. If the DEVS are willing to hear some true crticism instead of simply dismissing it as they seem to have done in the past then let them read this.
HE WROTE:
"Perhaps the most pertinent fact about Star Wars Galaxies is this: In early November the first Jedi appeared...six months after the developers introduced Jedi/SIth Holocrons to nudge prospective Jedi in the right direction. Pacing has never been a strong point of Galaxies, and thats putting it mildly. Upon launch, the game was about as engaging as sorting your change jar.
In the half year since its release, Galaxies has undergone the kind of maintanence and gradual expansion you'd expect of an MMO. Yes, the "open beta" stage (i.e, publication) has give Lucas/SOE a chance to tighten up the bolts a bit, refine the performance and engine, and iron out some of the more obvious problems. The graphics still clips like a mother......
The major additions are mounts and player cities. Pets such as dewbacks, flumpasets, and other beasties can be trained for riding by a creature handler or bought pre-trained. With the player-city option, a politician can become mayor of his own city, adding structures and decorating to create a custom location.
Does this add enough to the actual gameplay to help you forget that the games predominant characteristic one of drudgery? Not really. Its a thuddingly repetative game, and only those investing a vast amount of time can reap any real rewards. It still feels more like work than play."
Thomas L. McDonald- Computer Gamming World
(Need I Say More)